Writing for the 11 year old boy

[CrystalAnne]

My boy will be 11 this summer, and I need writing ideas for next year.  My goal is for him to be able to take a writing prompt at the end of the year and write a well organized paragraph with topic sentence, supporting sentences, etc.  He has trouble setting the pen to the paper and organizing his ideas in his head.  He successfully completed WWE 1-3, and CLE 2 and 3 when he was younger.  We tried Writing Tales 1, Rod and Staff English in the past, and IEW A and MCT Town this year, but those were all half done and ultimately flopped.  He does better with clear instructions and practice step by step.  I'm looking for opinions on BJU 5 or CLE 5, either paired with Jump In, Wordsmith Apprentice, it Spectrum Writing 5.  Someone gave us Wordsmith Apprentice, but it doesn't look like it would be the best fit.  I love the look of Jump In samples, but it's leveled for slightly older kids.  Any thoughts on all this?

The biggest thing I have learned is that if a curriculum doesn't work, have a backup ready to go.   

 

 

 

 

[Lori D.]

Jump In worked to help our struggling writer think of what to say, and how to organize his writing, BUT, he did it in 8th/9th grade, since he was delayed in writing. Don't know if it would be too much for your 11yo, but you could always slow it down and assign a "smaller bite" per day. Or, if not ready for Jump In, then possibly:

Wordsmith (the level after Wordsmith Apprentice)? It is more informal in style, but it focuses on paragraph writing in all 4 areas of writing (descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive), and then writing a multi-paragraph essay. Wordsmith is like a lighter version of Jump In, in my opinion. (I've used both.)

Or, possibly:
4-Square Writing (gr. 4-6)
or:
- Writing Fabulous Sentences and Paragraphs (gr. 4-6), followed by something like:
- Moore Evan Paragraph Writing (gr. 2-4) -- yes, it's below your DS's grade level, but very simple, clear, directions in how to order a paragraph
- Scholastic How To Write a Paragraph (gr. 6-8) -- multi-paragraph essays, and what goes in to each paragraph
 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Lori D.

[MerryAtHope]

Essentials in Writing by Matthew Stephens is really incremental. That turned writing around for us here.

[CrystalAnne]

Thank you!  I need to click through all of those links above.  And thanks for reminding me of EIW.  I've always been hesitant because I wanted in depth grammar.  How has the grammar portion been?

[CrystalAnne]

Lori D. -. Those are excellent books you posted!  Especially Writing Fabulous Sentences and Paragraphs.  I may buy them all.  Would you recommend that path, or Wordsmith?  I really didn't like the look of Wordsmith Apprentice, but I really like Wordsmith.  I can see how it moves fast though, even in the first few pages of the sample.

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

 

[PeterPan]

Hmm, well I've got one kid who finally took to writing but finds it so hard she requires accommodations (extended time, always access to tech, etc.) and was told she probably should have been diagnosed with an SLD. The other kid has been diagnosed and well he gets out even less.

At some point the problem isn't the curriculum but not knowing WHY IT'S NOT WORKING. You have tried a variety of generally reasonable things, and you have so much unfinished stuff in your wake, I'm not sure anything else will be more magical. Sometimes the problem is not the program but the kid, and sometimes that means we have to step things up on our end.

So how bad is it? What part is working and what isn't? There's a concept called the "simple view of writing" which is writing = transcription + executive functions . There's also the not so simple view of writing and digging in further, but you may not need that. 

So as a starting point, you start looking for where the glitch is in there, because that's likely the problem, not the writing curricula. 

-transcription=handwriting/keyboard, spelling

-executive functions=attention, planning, reviewing, revising, self-regulation

https://www.ldatschool.ca/literacy-skills-handwriting/  A link to get you started.

For my dd, there were attention issues, low processing speed, and exceptionally poor word retrieval that we didn't pinpoint till we got $$$ neuropsych testing right about the age of your ds btw. This is really the age when anything like that hits the fan. SLP testing would have been a cheaper way to get info on the language issues that were making her writing hard. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by PeterPan

[Ellie]

7 hours ago, CrystalAnne said:

My boy will be 11 this summer, and I need writing ideas for next year.  My goal is for him to be able to take a writing prompt at the end of the year and write a well organized paragraph with topic sentence, supporting sentences, etc.  He has trouble setting the pen to the paper and organizing his ideas in his head.  He successfully completed WWE 1-3, and CLE 2 and 3 when he was younger.  We tried Writing Tales 1, Rod and Staff English in the past, and IEW A and MCT Town this year, but those were all half done and ultimately flopped.  He does better with clear instructions and practice step by step.  I'm looking for opinions on BJU 5 or CLE 5, either paired with Jump In, Wordsmith Apprentice, it Spectrum Writing 5.  Someone gave us Wordsmith Apprentice, but it doesn't look like it would be the best fit.  I love the look of Jump In samples, but it's leveled for slightly older kids.  Any thoughts on all this?

The biggest thing I have learned is that if a curriculum doesn't work, have a backup ready to go.  

BJUP's writing is complete; if you did that, you wouldn't need to add anything else. Or to put it another way, Wordsmith Apprentice is a complete writing course; to add it to the writing in BJUP would be overkill, IMHO. Not sure about Jump in or Spectrum. 🙂

[Lori D.]

5 hours ago, CrystalAnne said:

Lori D. -. Those are excellent books you posted!  Especially Writing Fabulous Sentences and Paragraphs.  I may buy them all.  Would you recommend that path, or Wordsmith?  I really didn't like the look of Wordsmith Apprentice, but I really like Wordsmith.  I can see how it moves fast though, even in the first few pages of the sample.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Glad something looks like it will work! 

Wordsmith will not take you all year, even if you slow it down into small "bites", so you would most likely be able to use that and another resource (perhaps the Writing Fabulous Sentences and Paragraphs (WFS&P)). You could either complete one program and then use the other to finish out the year, or alternate "units", or do Wordsmith 4x/week and then do a page, or a few pages, of WFS&P on the 5th day of the week. -- Long way of saying you could do both paths. (:D

Edited May 7, 2019 by Lori D.

[CrystalAnne]

PeterPan -

Thank you for your thoughtful reply and that link.  I would not have come to the conclusions below if you had not posted it, so truly, thank you. To give some background, he has mild cerebral palsy, which makes him have constant jerky movements that he cannot control.  It takes a lot of motor planning and control on his part to "be careful" when writing, place letters and numbers appropriately, sized correctly, etc.  He has worked with a PT, OT, and some Speech for years and years, but they are discharging him for good in a few weeks, saying he is done and doing well.  The CP does not affect his intellect, just motor.

Regarding writing, we have followed the WTM philosophy and worked up stamina with copywork, spelling, and cursive.  Those have always gone well. The difficulties come when he has to think of what he needs to write (original writing), keep the thoughts organized in his head, and still put a ton of mental effort into the act of writing.  I requested some low-key evals on word and memory recognition with the OT and Speech, but nothing has ever come up.  I do know that although he reads well, he often doesn't express himself verbally as much as he is able, especially when he is tired.  That also translates to even poorer expression with original writing.

After having read your post and looking through the link a while, I realized that the breakdown happens when the pencil is in his hand.  And I suspect that is from using so much mental energy to motor plan when writing.  So today, we sat at the computer and I gave him a prompt and typed while he spoke.  I gave no input.  We did a rough draft, then a revised rough draft, and wow!  He has thoughts and details, and can "write" pretty well.  But it's all verbal.  My goal as teacher and mom is to get him to lay out his thoughts, organize his thoughts after they are all out, and then polish the writing, eventually all on his own.  I think we will start doing this verbally for the next few weeks, and then try to transition him to writing different types of paragraphs, interesting openers, using quotes, etc. from some of the resources above.   

The IEW and Writing Tales methodology was fine, but we didn't really make progress in organization of original thought or original expression.  The key word outlines, writing from them, changing small details, using strong verbs, was all fine.  I don't think we were making headway in his weak areas.  Even after that type of work and WWE copywork, original writing was still a few minimal sentences at best.  We were never getting enough original output to work on organization and expression.  

Anyways, here is what he dictated today, after one revision.  We will revise again tomorrow.  I've never seen anything close to this quality in any of his writing in the past, so we will be using this same speech to text method for a while until we hopefully can get him to merge this method with his own physical writing or typing.  I'm so proud of him!

"It was a very sunny day, but there were a few dark clouds in the sky.  Daddy, Bethany, Tom, and I were excited to go in our boats and paddle on the lake.    Tom and Bethany rode in Daddy’s canoe and I paddled in my kayak.  We started off with the wind paddling down the lake.  When we got to the end of the lake and we tried to turn around, we found that the wind was very strong and the waves were very choppy.  We noticed that the wind was too strong, and we didn’t really pay attention to how far we had paddled from shore.   We realized we should try to get back.   Daddy had trouble paddling against the wind, and I had even more trouble.  Tommy was very afraid and was crying, but Bethany got over her fear and tried to console him.  The wind kept blowing me farther away and I felt I couldn’t make it.  Daddy almost turned around and tried to get me, but when he saw me actually making a little bit of headway, he turned around and kept on going.   Daddy thought that he would have to go back in a car around the lake and pick me up at the end.  But, I put on a determined face, and made it all the way back to the rowboat drop off.  We were very wet and tired afterwards.  We learned that we should be mindful of the dark clouds and only paddle when there’s not so much wind."

[Lori D.]

19 minutes ago, CrystalAnne said:

... It takes a lot of motor planning and control on his part to "be careful" when writing, place letters and numbers appropriately, sized correctly, etc... The difficulties come when he has to think of what he needs to write (original writing), keep the thoughts organized in his head, and still put a ton of mental effort into the act of writing... the breakdown happens when the pencil is in his hand.  And I suspect that is from using so much mental energy to motor plan when writing...

Our DS#2 had mild LDs (stealth dyslexia), with big struggles in spelling, writing, the physical act of writing, and this sounds SO similar to his struggles. Breaking the writing process into small bites helped him focus on one stage at a time and not get overwhelmed. Especially in the brainstorming ideas stage, I would write on the whiteboard for DS, and then we would discuss what ideas fit together for the paragraph (or multi-paragraph essay), and then he would dictate and I would scribe his key word outline to organize the flow of the ideas. Also, switching to *typing* his papers was a HUGE relief for him, as it removed the energy-sucking activity of intense focus on the physical act of writing out of the equation.

With your DS's cerebral palsy, perhaps eventually look in to a speech recognition software so he can eventually do his brainstorming and writing all on his own.
 

So today, we sat at the computer and I gave him a prompt and typed while he spoke.  I gave no input.  We did a rough draft, then a revised rough draft, and wow!  He has thoughts and details, and can "write" pretty well.  But it's all verbal.  My goal as teacher and mom is to get him to lay out his thoughts, organize his thoughts after they are all out, and then polish the writing, eventually all on his own.  I think we will start doing this verbally for the next few weeks, and then try to transition him to writing different types of paragraphs, interesting openers, using quotes, etc. from some of the resources above.   

Awesome job at mentoring, momma!
 

"It was a very sunny day, but there were a few dark clouds in the sky.  Daddy, Bethany, Tom, and I were excited to go in our boats and paddle on the lake.    Tom and Bethany rode in Daddy’s canoe and I paddled in my kayak.  We started off with the wind paddling down the lake.  When we got to the end of the lake and we tried to turn around, we found that the wind was very strong and the waves were very choppy.  We noticed that the wind was too strong, and we didn’t really pay attention to how far we had paddled from shore.   We realized we should try to get back.   Daddy had trouble paddling against the wind, and I had even more trouble.  Tommy was very afraid and was crying, but Bethany got over her fear and tried to console him.  The wind kept blowing me farther away and I felt I couldn’t make it.  Daddy almost turned around and tried to get me, but when he saw me actually making a little bit of headway, he turned around and kept on going.   Daddy thought that he would have to go back in a car around the lake and pick me up at the end.  But, I put on a determined face, and made it all the way back to the rowboat drop off.  We were very wet and tired afterwards.  We learned that we should be mindful of the dark clouds and only paddle when there’s not so much wind."

Fantastic writing! I would advise against doing another revision -- instead, *celebrate*. It is easy to get in the habit of *over* editing with a struggling writer. MUCH better to just pick one or two things to work on, instead of endless tweaking which is very discouraging to a struggling writer.

Hurray CrystalAnne & DS! Sounds like you guys are making some great first steps in the Writing journey. Wishing you continued success! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[CrystalAnne]

Lori -

Thank you for your encouragement!  It was a breath of fresh air today.  And yes, we will celebrate!

[Ellie]

22 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Glad something looks like it will work! 

Wordsmith will not take you all year, even if you slow it down into small "bites", so you would most likely be able to use that and another resource (perhaps the Writing Fabulous Sentences and Paragraphs (WFS&P)). You could either complete one program and then use the other to finish out the year, or alternate "units", or do Wordsmith 4x/week and then do a page, or a few pages, of WFS&P on the 5th day of the week. -- Long way of saying you could do both paths. (:D

Isn't Wordsmith (and some others) supposed to be about half a year, because there will also be reading/literature?

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, CrystalAnne said:

Thank you for your thoughtful reply and that link.  I would not have come to the conclusions below if you had not posted it, so truly, thank you. To give some background, he has mild cerebral palsy, which makes him have constant jerky movements that he cannot control.  It takes a lot of motor planning and control on his part to "be careful" when writing, place letters and numbers appropriately, sized correctly, etc.  He has worked with a PT, OT, and some Speech for years and years, but they are discharging him for good in a few weeks, saying he is done and doing well.  The CP does not affect his intellect, just motor.

Oh my, that's a lot. I can tell you for our journey that both my kids have some measure of praxis. My dd has some overall mild praxis that doesn't give her a diagnosis but gives her noticeable problems (awkward running, etc.). Maybe like your ds, her language shuts down when she's stressed or tired and she will switch over to texting. She's in college, and it hit her really hard to be out in public and have it just shut down. Also, learning to type was exceptionally challenging for her. She was not succeeding with QWERTY despite years and years of working on it. I switched her to Dvorak, an alternate keyboard layout that keeps your fingers on the home row more and minimizes midline crossing, and she was able to learn to type functionally. She had a low point where her handwriting was not legible or practical for school writing AND the typing was not going well. That was low. So we were thankful we could get the Dvorak to work. She simply toggles her laptop (mac), ipad, etc. over in the language settings and she's good to go. Another way the praxis shows up is in the word retrieval and how her brain organizes language. 

My ds has verbal apraxia that is considered severe though largely remediated. His language also will drop when he's stressed or tired, and if it's really bad he won't even be able to point. With him, even getting him able to say his math so that I can scribe for him is hard. I have him using a multi-line calculator that shows the equations so that he can verify his knowledge and what he meant without having to talk. He can read it aloud if it wants, but it's saving that fatigue to let him work on the academics. As you say, the presence of the disability tells us nothing about the intelligence. Both my kids are super bright, but getting stuff out can be pretty hard.

1 hour ago, CrystalAnne said:

I requested some low-key evals on word and memory recognition with the OT and Speech, but nothing has ever come up.

Ok, so I'm pretty pissy on SLP evals. My ds has had therapy since he was 2, so I've been in the system 8 1/2 years now. Your ds is probably similar. My ds got PROMPT, which is totally focused on building the motor planning. The people knew SQUAT DIDDLEY about the expressive language, narrative language, syntax, anything. They were like oh we farm that out! Now they were BRILLIANT on the motor planning but we were so, so sad on everything else. And the trouble was, he had massive amounts of memorized language because he was so bright and listening to college lectures (Great Courses). Like at 5, no kidding, that's what he was listening to.

I ended up having them buy (because they seriously did not own) the TNL and the SPELT. Ran them, he failed them. It has been a year, so we're going to run them again, see what progress we've made. So it's just my two cents, but it always pays to dig more on language if there are concerns. The praxis can affect how the brain organizes language. Many SLPs are running really generic screeners, like the CELF, that have poor sensitivity. And maybe they hit everything. In a way, the testing shows what you already know is happening. You're seeing it probably, so listen to your gut on what you think is happening and you'll probably be right. We're going to be much more sensitive, in that sense, than clinicians who see him only once a week because we have more data in our heads of all the things he says.

1 hour ago, CrystalAnne said:

After having read your post and looking through the link a while, I realized that the breakdown happens when the pencil is in his hand.  And I suspect that is from using so much mental energy to motor plan when writing. 

Bingo. And how old is he? My ds has a very thick IEP (our update is tomorrow, joy joy) and my dd uses accommodations in college. I'm SUPER BIG on using accommodations, because they're what lets what is INSIDE finally show. When he has a KNOWN DISABILITY (the CP), then he should be given those accommodations. And it shouldn't be a fail to get them. And maybe you've worked SO HARD with the OT to get the handwriting that that feels perverse. But, you know, the demands step up. That's like my ds and writing his math. He can sorta write digits right now. He's not going to write much functionally for LA (maybe a few words or T/F), but for math he can write some numbers. But can he write them over and over, page after page, to do the amount of work his brain is ready to do? Nope. That's holding back academic progress for no reason. Scribe. There's so much other stuff he can write. He might want a personal diary. He might like to chicken scratch his thoughts to then dictate from using dictation on an ipad. My dd did that for a while. He might want to write sweet notes to a girlfriend! There's plenty to write without him feeling like his academics have to be held back.

I'm going to take it even one step further. In college, he won't have accommodations unless he ASKS and files and USES them. No one will hold his hand or make him. So he has to self-advocate and feel very confident in the justness of using all his tools to let what's inside show. I taught my dd this by having her do courses in jr high and high school (online, etc.) where she used her accommodations. You can say wow, we've done so much handwriting, but now your tasks are such that you have the CHOICE and it's an EQUAL choice because all that matters is that it GETS OUT. And put all the options on the table (scribing, speech to text, AAC, texting on a phone, Dvorak, word boards everything) and say it's all good, it's all you, whatever helps you get it out that day is what you should use. 

He might like some help to try different dictation options. There's Dragon, but there are lots more options now too. Some work better with a headphone with mic. Some have a bit of a learning curve. My dh uses dictation on his imac and macbook pro. It's a free download for the best version. I'm not sure my ds is intelligible enough yet for dictation, so with him I scribe. I don't know what I'll do for that, sigh. We need a little more speech therapy. Anyways, there's a learning curve and he may need help and permission and funding to research and try new things. 

1 hour ago, CrystalAnne said:

We did a rough draft, then a revised rough draft, and wow! 

I LOVE this!! That's the first step, the transcription. It unlocks everything.

1 hour ago, CrystalAnne said:

He has thoughts and details, and can "write" pretty well.  But it's all verbal.  My goal as teacher and mom is to get him to lay out his thoughts, organize his thoughts after they are all out, and then polish the writing, eventually all on his own.  I think we will start doing this verbally for the next few weeks, and then try to transition him to writing different types of paragraphs, interesting openers, using quotes, etc. from some of the resources above.   

This is what the "simple view of writing" is calling executive function, but I want to draw that to your attention as a term you need to spend more time on. It also means the ability to organize the thoughts in his mind. EF (executive function) issues are SUPER COMMON in your labels like ADHD, dyslexia, etc., so it would not be shocking if he has some EF issues. When they extend into writing, the dc can get a diagnosis of SLD writing for struggling with that EF process of organization. 

So when you're seeing those symptoms of EF issues, then you're looking for tools that help him see structure and understand structure. This is just to get you started. https://mindwingconcepts.com  If you surf around here enough, you'll see the connection between narrative language and expository. So IF he has narrative language deficits, he's gonna be plowing really hard trying to do that expository work. I don't know where he is in that. I think if you start looking through the things on this site, you'll see if that's how far you need to back up. I don't know. I'm just saying when someone has gone through as many programs as you have, that's the question I would be asking. You probably need to be looking for something intervention level, something meant for doing intervention for kids with language disabilities (which he has) and writing disabilities. So this is an option. There are some other programs, but this one is very clear and has tons of info on their blog and site to get you started. They have wonderful youtube videos. It's going to fit with what you liked about WTM writing but take  it TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

1 hour ago, CrystalAnne said:

I've never seen anything close to this quality in any of his writing in the past, so we will be using this same speech to text method for a while until we hopefully can get him to merge this method with his own physical writing or typing.  I'm so proud of him!

What a BEAUTIFUL narrative!! Ok, well it's pretty clear the SLPs have been working on narratives with him. That's a really seriously nice narrative. Like if you go look at it and compare it to the list of story grammar elements to be including, he's really NAILING it!! So then look at Thememaker and how they teach the kids to take those narrative elements and transition them to expository. And you might actually ask your SLPs whether they've been working on narrative language and what they've been using. There are several common programs (SGM, SKILL, stuff off TPT, etc.), and knowing might allow you to connect and extend it. I would definitely ask. Or flat ask what they use to work on expository.

I'm not seeing a lot of syntactic complexity, so that's something to be thinking through. You may have maxed out the SLPs without maxing out what needs to be done.

As far as getting him typing or hand writing, I think it's ok not to sweat that. It's not a virtue, just one of many good ways. My dd doesn't have a CP diagnosis, and it was still wicked hard for her. I know people with varying levels of praxis who get QWERTY but peck or are very slow. All that matters is that he gets his thoughts out, not how. Ben Foss is your guru on this. He has all kinds of youtube videos on assistive tech and his attitude is so catching. He was the one that was really pivotal to me, because my ds has so many things that could glitch up showing what's inside. Your ds clearly has beautiful thoughts inside, with observations and reflections. I would keep them separate, offer him a complete range of tech, and just let him use whatever strikes him as best that day. When HE gets used to his thoughts coming out, HE will have some opinions on what he wants to use, lol.

Have you seen Inspiration? It's a mindmapping software, totally amazing. There are lots of ways to do this. DonJohnson has a bunch of software he could look through. Some are word predictive, so it could make the typing go better. Some people will preload vocabulary for maps/graphic organizers. You could map together and then he goes off by himself to dictate. Lots of options there he can try. 

Well good, I'm really happy for you!! Tech is helping you with the transcription part of the simple view of writing equation. Make sure you bring in equally good resources for the EF side. You've got this!

Adding: It's my observation that some of the people who have the HARDEST TIME getting things out are the ones who MOST have something to say. It's why it's so important to equalize that field and let it come out. Assume he's a writer or could enjoy the writing process if it were that comfortable. He sounds like someone with something to say! My dd never thought she'd enjoy writing, and then, right around the age of your ds, a bunch of things came together (Dvorak, working memory work, metronome work for EF, etc.) and all of a sudden she was doing fan fiction contests, I kid you not. So even it being hard now doesn't mean he'll never enjoy it. Look for that joy and what unleashes that joy. Get him an ipad or an old iphone so he can dictate any time he wants. Does he have access to Siri? You so want to unleash this and see what happens. He may like to journal his thoughts with dictation at night to go back to them the next day. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

37 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Fantastic writing! I would advise against doing another revision -- instead, *celebrate*.

Yes, yes!!!

[PeterPan]

So yes, as far as curriculum, I would first find out from your SLPs what program they've been using for narrative language. He has so many elements, he's either naturally amazing or has been very well taught on narratives. And if he's been taught explicitly on narratives, it will be super easy to use those same labels and switch him over to expository, boom.

[CrystalAnne]

PeterPan - 

I have so much to look through and think through now.  He hasn't been in Speech for several years, and all Speech ever did was oral motor skills to make talking clearer.  No expressive language work, narratives, anything.  And OT says he can write fine, and he's making good progress with typing.com.  Honestly, his CP is very mild.  Now OT just works on finger strength, and for more everyday functional ability, not school related.

But I wonder more about this Executive Function piece.  Would an SLP be the one to work on that?  An OT?  Who tests and works on Executive Functions and how they relate to writing?

Edited May 8, 2019 by CrystalAnne

[Lori D.]

15 hours ago, Ellie said:

Isn't Wordsmith (and some others) supposed to be about half a year, because there will also be reading/literature?

I wonder if that is something specifically mentioned in the revised edition?? We had/used an OLD original edition. We did other things to supplement Wordsmith, so we were doing some sort of writing all year long.

Side note: I had an average writer and a struggling writer, and I can't imagine only doing Writing (or Literature, for that matter) for 1/2 of a school year. From 7th grade on, we spent about 30 min./day, 4x/week on Writing, as well as spending about 40-50 min/day 4-5 days/week on reading/literature all year. Perhaps it's *because* language arts were not a strong area for DSs that I felt we really needed that daily dose of writing and reading all the way through middle/high school...

[MerryAtHope]

On 5/6/2019 at 6:39 PM, CrystalAnne said:

Thank you!  I need to click through all of those links above.  And thanks for reminding me of EIW.  I've always been hesitant because I wanted in depth grammar.  How has the grammar portion been?

 

My kids did levels 7-11, and there is only grammar in levels 1-6. However, I tend to prefer grammar that is applied directly to writing, and think I would have liked that! I didn't do grammar every single year though--some years were a writing focus, and others were grammar focus. So, I probably would have been fine even if the grammar seemed light to me. The writing is the only program that worked for us consistently over time, and was definitely worth it here! It's the only thing that broke the writing task down into small enough tasks to make it doable for my son especially, and finally moved him from being dependent on me and oral writing most of the time, to being able to put all of the skills together and start writing independently. It took a lot of work and scaffolding to get to that point, and he was older than your son (9th grade) when it started all coming together. Different challenges, but quite significant to overcome. Anyway, hth some!

Edited May 8, 2019 by MerryAtHope

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, Lori D. said:

I can't imagine only doing Writing (or Literature, for that matter) for 1/2 of a school year.

Total, total aside, but sometimes when curricula (for eg. BJU) say they do writing 1/2 year and lit 1/2 year, the caveat is that they're *weaving* writing into everything else. So if you go through it, the writing was in the history and science and and and kwim? And BJU usually does it by alternating chapters. Not saying that's what I would do, just that there can be some context like that.

On May 8, 2019 at 12:31 AM, CrystalAnne said:

But I wonder more about this Executive Function piece.  Would an SLP be the one to work on that?  An OT?  Who tests and works on Executive Functions and how they relate to writing?

Good questions! And I love that you've so carefully narrowed down and eliminated things. So in a school setting, the intervention specialist or the regular classroom teacher would support the writing instruction with graphic organizers and explicit instruction. There are two ways *I* know of to test EF. One is through an EF survey like The Brief, which is typically done by psychs, rather obvious things like how they keep their room clean, and it's a big picture look at their life and how they function in the world. Meant to catch EF deficits= ADHD. There's also a newer EF test SLPs are doing now. I think they did it on my ds and I'm not sure that I remember it being like wow informative.

So if you see the EF issues, they're there. It's more just connecting the dots on what's happening, the part of the brain affected, and then supporting them. Really though, that narration was so sharp, it will be interesting to see how he does on expository. Have you tried any debate prompts on him? 50 Debate Prompts for Kids by Patrick Daley;Michael S. Dahliehttps://shop.scholastic.com/.../50-debate-prompts-for-kids-9780545179027.html  

We had our IEP meeting today and it was surprising to me how insistent they were that ds needed to be INDEPENDENT for his writing that is called writing. Like for science, scribe, anything else scribe, but writing class has to become independent. And like you found, I think it would shut that down, sigh. And we talked through 14 options, but what they landed on (scribe and copy) really wasn't great either. He's still going to write less if he knows he's physically going to have to write it, duh.

So anyways, your EF issues are basically your organization (of the project, dividing it into chunks, of the structure, etc.), being able to see what is a main point and what is non-essential, etc. etc. A very bright dc may have a more complex structure, so I'm with SWB on saying not to push really nitpicky formats. I had my dd outline and retell mature writing so she could see how excellent writers structure their arguments. It's very WTM. We did WWS later. I think maybe we did it starting in 8th. I liked the toolbox aspect to it. So I wouldn't clinicalize a student who's actually on track to have a more sophisticated style. But yes, there's EF the whole way, with breaking the task into chunks, realizing what is essential and non-essential, on and on. 

It would be interesting to see what would happen if you reapproached some of the materials you had previously used that didn't work, now that you have tech. You might also consider using something inexpensive, like that Debate Prompts book, just to see what happens. This doesn't have to be expensive. Technically you could work on his dictation and tech skills, doing ANYTHING YOU WANT for a year (debate, start a blog, response essays, anything), outline articles 1-2X a week, and then come back to a writing program the following year.