Dysgraphia and spelling?

[zarabellesmom]

My oldest is 11.5 and has completed through level D in Apples and Pears. It helped a lot but her spelling still isn't great. Honestly, she is dysgraphic, so it never will be great, right? As some of you might know, my youngest was just recently evaluated and found to be dyslexic so we are working our way through Barton. I've been doing it (separately) with my oldest as well, but if you've used Barton, and I know a lot of you have, it takes a huge chunk of time. I'm wondering if my time might be better spent just teaching DD11 to use technology for spelling which will leave more time for us to really focus on her writing? At what point do you think spelling is what it is and just move on?

Edited February 7, 2017 by ZaraBellesMom

[OneStepAtATime]

So your oldest is dysgraphic but not dyslexic?  I can't remember clearly.  And is the dysgraphia both for getting words on paper and the physical act of writing or just getting words on paper?

 

I know that Barton is time consuming but if she is not dyslexic she theoretically should be able to move through the program relatively quickly.  How has she been doing with Barton?  Is she really struggling?  And how bad is her spelling?  How is her out loud reading?

 

If the day is just too long, can you shorten the lessons?  We usually keep lessons pretty short here.  It might just make more sense to move to tech but if you already have Barton and doing 15 or 20 min a day could get her through at least Level 5 or 6 by High School that might help tremendously with spelling.  (Of course, it might not, either.)  She is only 11.  I think I would try Barton a little bit longer.  She is not in High School yet.  By High School yeah, ditch spelling and work on spell checker usage or other tech support if you feel it is time.

[Storygirl]

Dysgraphia doesn't really have to mean poor spelling. It can be a motor planning issue and/or trouble getting thoughts onto paper, as Onestep mentioned. The spelling trouble suggests dyslexia. Has she been evaluated?

 

DD11 is enrolled in a private dyslexia school. They do focus on teaching technology, but they are definitely still working on the phonemic and spelling skills at that age and have 90 minutes of OG based language arts daily.

 

So I don't know that I would recommend giving it up, but there is a diminishing return when they are older; the remediation is less likely to be as effective as when younger. DD11's spelling is just terrible, and I doubt it will ever be good at this point, but we're hoping she can still improve.

[zarabellesmom]

Yes, she has been evaluated. She is definitely not dyslexic. She was an early reader and reads accurately, quickly and at an advanced level. In third grade, at the time of her evaluation, her testing results showed (all in percentiles):

 

Phonemic Awareness (WJ) 99.5%

Reading Vocabulary (99%)

Passage Comprehension (92%)

Word Recognition w/Automaticity: 95%

Reading Speed (noncomplex material): 87%

Phonetic Decoding in reading: (82%)

 

That's all great, but she had quite a few weaknesses resulting in:

 

Written Expression Disorder (spelling and written language mechanics)

Learning Disorder NOS with weaknesses in working memory, processing speed, cognitive fluency and cognitive efficiency

And of course, ADHD

 

She used to have trouble with the physical act of writing, but that's ok now (I mean the handwriting isn't beautiful but it is legible and fast enough and she rarely reverses anything anymore). What remains is a difficulty getting thoughts (complete with correctly spelled words which I mostly consider a bonus, but I don't think will stand her well in the future) on paper. You can read what she writes though many (10% maybe) of the words are incorrectly spelled. She sometimes has trouble getting autocorrect to understand her--the other day faucet was so wrong that autocorrect gave up and I wouldn't say that happens frequently, but it does happen occasionally. If I had to evaluate spelling level, I'd call it third grade-ish. But that might be harsh because she has an amazing vocabulary so she's using words that are tricky to spell a lot of times. But she still misspells some words that most third graders would have mastered ("with" or "says" for instance).

 

She's just started level 4 of Barton and we started just after Thanksgiving. So far she's not really struggling, but up until now she's only been dealing with closed syllables so I know she's going to start having to work harder for it soon. She's not great at memorizing facts (like spelling rules or math facts) so that will be slow progress. Before we knew she was dysgraphic, we tried to use AAS. It was a nightmare. Tears and arguments and no progress. She's older now and she has a very good attitude towards Barton so that really isn't an issue. I guess I was just wondering if it was possible to get enough out of it that it was worth the time we are spending on it or if it's too late to really accomplish what needs accomplishing. I have it, so the only thing lost is time. Of course, if she improves with it, then it's not lost time.

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes, she has been evaluated. She is definitely not dyslexic. She was an early reader and reads accurately, quickly and at an advanced level. In third grade, at the time of her evaluation, her testing results showed (all in percentiles):

 

Phonemic Awareness (WJ) 99.5%

Reading Vocabulary (99%)

Passage Comprehension (92%)

Word Recognition w/Automaticity: 95%

Reading Speed (noncomplex material): 87%

Phonetic Decoding in reading: (82%)

 

That's all great, but she had quite a few weaknesses resulting in:

 

Written Expression Disorder (spelling and written language mechanics)

Learning Disorder NOS with weaknesses in working memory, processing speed, cognitive fluency and cognitive efficiency

And of course, ADHD

 

She used to have trouble with the physical act of writing, but that's ok now (I mean the handwriting isn't beautiful but it is legible and fast enough and she rarely reverses anything anymore). What remains is a difficulty getting thoughts (complete with correctly spelled words which I mostly consider a bonus, but I don't think will stand her well in the future) on paper. You can read what she writes though many (10% maybe) of the words are incorrectly spelled. She sometimes has trouble getting autocorrect to understand her--the other day faucet was so wrong that autocorrect gave up and I wouldn't say that happens frequently, but it does happen occasionally. If I had to evaluate spelling level, I'd call it third grade-ish. But that might be harsh because she has an amazing vocabulary so she's using words that are tricky to spell a lot of times. But she still misspells some words that most third graders would have mastered ("with" or "says" for instance).

 

She's just started level 4 of Barton and we started just after Thanksgiving. So far she's not really struggling, but up until now she's only been dealing with closed syllables so I know she's going to start having to work harder for it soon. She's not great at memorizing facts (like spelling rules or math facts) so that will be slow progress. Before we knew she was dysgraphic, we tried to use AAS. It was a nightmare. Tears and arguments and no progress. She's older now and she has a very good attitude towards Barton so that really isn't an issue. I guess I was just wondering if it was possible to get enough out of it that it was worth the time we are spending on it or if it's too late to really accomplish what needs accomplishing. I have it, so the only thing lost is time. Of course, if she improves with it, then it's not lost time.

I don't know if this will help or not, but in case you haven't read it elsewhere, let me share some things regarding my daughter...

 

When I started homeschooling DD, she was just entering 6th grade.  She was an abysmal speller.  Abysmal.  I would estimate she maybe correctly spelled 20% of her words.  Her school had only taught whole language instruction with lots of rote memorization of sight words and I didn't know any better.  I followed what the school recommended for how to learn to spell/read.  Every day, literally every day, Monday through Sunday, we would study those awful lists.  We did that from Kindergarten onward.  Sometimes, if the list wasn't too bad, she would actually pass the test with an A,  but by the next week she had retained virtually nothing.  It was as if her brain was reset by the next week.  

 

With all of that studying, many times she managed to pull at least a B, but again, that was only with studying literally every single day, including the morning of the test and retention was almost non-existent past the day of the test.  (Just think about that for a minute.  If you were studying a list of 20 words at least an hour every day, 7 days a week, and then practically NOTHING on that list stuck, how would that make you feel?)  Some days we even studied twice, especially on weekends and the day of her test.  If her class that particular year was in the afternoon I would show up at lunch and we would study again then, too.  If we didn't study 7 days a week, she failed.  Every time.  Not just get a C or a D.  I mean completely fail.  One week in 5th grade she just had too many other tests we had to study for.  We only studied 4 days instead of 7, but it was 4 days of extensive studying.  She got an 8 out of 100.  An 8.  We were both so demoralized and exhausted.  

 

Fast forward to 7th grade.  She had been homeschooling and doing Barton for a year and a half.  A friend in another state is a professional tutor.  She had never heard of Barton.  She offered to give DD two Criterion referenced spelling tests to see if the program was actually helping.  DD was not allowed to see those lists ahead of time.  She did not study.  I will always remember, vividly, when we got the results.  She got a 100 on the first one and a 99 on the second.  The look on her face that day, when our eyes locked on each other, will be burned into my mind forever.  

 

Her spelling has improved dramatically.  Does she spell every word correctly when she is writing outside of Barton?  No.  But she spells most words correctly now.  From spelling the vast majority wrong to spelling the vast majority right...it was definitely worth it for us.

 

I cannot guarantee that your child will ever dramatically improve in her spelling but Barton may very well help her get better than she is currently.  Honestly, if she isn't fighting it, I would keep going.

 

I would also like to say, though, that if only about 10% of her words are misspelled that is actually pretty awesome.  My dad was terrible at spelling.  He still graduated college, had a great career, and wrote a  maintenance manual.  DH is an awful speller, too.  He misspells way more than 10% of his words.  He still has a great career as a Broadcast Engineer.  

 

I guess my point is that your child is young and still has a lot of years of writing ahead of her.  Since you already own it, I would keep going with Barton and see if it helps.  You will be using it with your other child anyway.  I think it would be worth it to at least get through Level 5.  Reassess after that.  On the flip side of the coin, though, it doesn't sound like her spelling is that bad overall.  In Level 4 the student is taught how to use a spell checker in a very targeted fashion.  I would focus on that area in particular.  Get her her own spell checker and have her practice using it just as the lessons show.  Even if the computer doesn't know what she is typing, she can probably get where she needs to go if she knows how to properly use a spell checker with the methods Barton teaches.

 

Hugs and best wishes, whatever you decide.   :)

Edited February 8, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[Storygirl]

Looking at the scores you posted, I think it is probably the working memory, combined with processing speed, that is causing the glitches with spelling. I haven't used Barton, so I don't know if it a good choice for someone with good phonological skills but low working memory. It might be overkill?? You don't want to frustrate her.

 

Have you looked at Sequential Spelling? It uses spelling patterns, which might help.

 

Based on what the NP told us about DS, it is the processing speed that messes with getting thoughts onto paper. With high verbal scores but low processing, you may have a nonverbal learning disorder profile going on. If you haven't read anything about that, it might be helpful for you to do so.

 

For DS12's dysgraphia, it helps to use a graphic organizer to plan his thoughts. To be frank, he usually needs assistance getting ideas into the form, so it's not like he can be handed an organizer and have it solve all the problems. But once he gets the ideas on there, he can then turn them into sentences and group his sentences into paragraphs. He's been doing well with that approach this year, but he still gets loads of help from me at home and his intervention teacher at school. With the support, though, he can complete assignments. He is actually pretty good at creative writing and has some fun ideas about sentences to include in his papers. But trying to get information into a paragraph really takes a lot of work for him, and I suspect it always will.

 

Also, his IEP says that he is to be allowed to tell what he knows without having to write it down. So far we haven't used this accommodation much, because most of his writing is for his language arts class, and the purpose of the assignment is to work on writing skills. But when he gets to having essay questions on tests in school, being able to give the information orally might be good.

 

We also scribe for him sometimes for homework and put a note in the margin that we are writing down his answers.

[Storygirl]

DS12 doesn't care about spelling. He doesn't have a problem with spelling and can spell most word naturally, but he doesn't care if he spells something wrong.

 

It looks like this: He is typing an answer into a homework assignment that is online. He will almost always say, "I know I'm not spelling that right, but I don't care." Depending on how the night is going (homework time ranges from okay to horrible as an experience for him), I either let the spelling errors go, or I have him go back and correct them afterword. The beauty of using the computer is that he can correct easily.

 

I think it is just too much processing at once to both think about the words that he is writing and make sure that he is spelling them correctly. So he has to do that in two separate steps.

[PeterPan]

Yes, if you're using Barton *only* for the spelling, knowing she has SLD writing, you'll want to bring in your tech or use dictation to remove the barrier of the writing. That way the ONLY thing you're working on is spelling. 

 

And yes, you may need to work on working memory. I've missed that in the thread, but we've worked on it significantly, lots of ways. You really can't go wrong working on it, especially with an ADHD kid. Also try heathermomster's metronome work, bringing in working memory exercises as she gets more proficient.

 

You might be better off using a spelling method that focuses on visualization.

 

Ok, I'll back up here. A lot of spelling approaches, like Barton, like SWR, assume that if the kid just UNDERSTOOD then things would stick. My dd is straight ADHD, and she's just not that way. She needed to go through the words like three years in a row. And she did better if she saw them in context. 

 

So if you're trying to fix a spelling problem but using the wrong fix, it still might not work, no matter how good it is, kwim? 

 

You might try getting her daily editing exercises. The more she EDITS, the more observant she'll become. Do them every day and reward her with m&ms or something for every error she finds.

 

Also dictation was really stellar for my dd. It was in context, and I swear it made things file better in her brain. We used to do lots of dictation. Oh you've got the crummy dysgraphia. Well dictate aloud. That's what I'm doing with my ds now. We work through the Barton spelling totally orally. Or try another spelling curriculum based on patterns and do it aloud.

 

For my dd, straight ADHD, the NOTICING was a more valuable skill than the actual spelling. So her being attentive to what she was doing, self-monitoring, and saying I know this spelling or I'm not sure, THAT was really valuable! Some ADHD straight kids do really well and make big progress with spell check. They're getting lots of visual input and seeing the words CORRECTLY. These kids are often very visual, VSL kind of learners!

 

I remember being at that stage and worried. Somehow it panned out and we just stopped about 7th. I don't know what happened. Like I'm not going to go sign my kid up for a spelling bee, but she's attentive enough to spelling that she cares if there are errors in her work. At some point give yourself permission to move on. I think you might like to focus on either the top 100 or 200 word lists (like SWR does) or get farther in Barton to get her through the roots/prefixes or get a book focusing on patterns to harness her visualization. Barton is really terrific for kids who are going to understand their way into spelling, but that doesn't mean all kids will. ADHD straight might do better visualizing her way into spelling, seeing patterns, bigger picture more quickly.

 

Like maybe get all the Spelling Success games and toss Barton entirely.

Edited February 8, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[zarabellesmom]

OneStep, thank you for sharing your daughter's experience, it was very encouraging. I'm having some insomnia (going on a couple of weeks here) and I'm getting less coherent as time passes but I did want to get back here and let everyone know that I appreciate your replies. So Z's spelling history includes our AAS fail, followed by Sequential Spelling (which was a hard slog because I'm sure some of you can guess how long it takes someone with dysgraphia to write 25 or so words). That was right around the time of our evaluations, so I didn't really understand why it took so long and just persisted which ended in serious frustration for us both. We continued with Sequential Spelling (ugh) and actually saw some progress but when her younger sister started doing Apples and Pears she expressed interest and it seemed silly to tell her no so we switched to that. Again, lots of writing but we only did a page a day at first and it was pretty much the only writing she did. Everything else was oral (including math, fun fun fun). Anway, in the two years since we started Apples and Pears and completed it, her writing stamina has improved and her spelling has improved too.

 

I think I need reminding sometimes that I tend to be a perfectionist and that she really has come a long way in her spelling and expecting her to be a spelling bee champion isn't really in the cards.  :lol: In any case, I do have Barton and I think if I just shorten the lessons every day (as someone suggested I think) that I won't feel like I'm investing so much time in something that might not pay off in the long run. Since she doesn't mind doing it (because we sit on the sofa with the cat which she loves to snuggle) and use the iPad tile app, she doesn't mind it at all and since this is the case, we should just continue on for now and see what happens. Anyone with a crystal ball? I did purchase the Spelling Success games for level four. They arrived today and I need to look at them and figure out the rules. She loves playing games so I'm sure they will see a lot of use. And maybe if Barton becomes an area where we butt heads, I'll reevaluate and see if the effort is worth the payoff. I do think she's getting a lot out of seeing the red underlined words in the word processor and having it help her make corrections like you suggested Elizabeth. She's also pretty logical and really likes to understand the whys of things. I think if the spelling rules make sense to her, it will be less about memorization and she's great at knowing through understanding. Also, she's better at memorization when she sees the value in it. The years she spent learning her multiplication facts were agony. Of course, we were trying to use Reflex Math and that's timed so poor processing speed was not her friend. I really wish I had thought that through more. Ugh. If I only knew then what I know now...and there's still so much to learn. Now that she's got them down cold, she's really grateful because factoring and LCM and GCF are a breeze. Honestly, I think her working memory has improved a fair amount since the time of her evaluations because she now seems to keep track of a lot more than me and beats me to answers on math problems (she thinks this is fun now, so no I'm not trying to torture her) probably 30% of the time. Either her working memory has improved, the ADHD meds are really helping, or my brain is rotting. I think it is a combination of the three.

 

She seems to care about spelling because she get's really frustrated when a word doesn't follow the patterns that she thinks it should. She frequently asks me why something is spelled a certain way (as opposed to what she was expecting). Unfortunately, I've only made it through the beginning of Barton level 4 myself so I don't have all of the answers to that yet. I'm going to be a spelling wizard if I survive through...level 10 is it?

 

I guess I'm going to try bed again and see if sleep comes. If not, I'm going to pop those Barton videos in and I will either learn something or be fast asleep in minutes.

 

Thanks all.

 

 

[zarabellesmom]

Looking at the scores you posted, I think it is probably the working memory, combined with processing speed, that is causing the glitches with spelling. I haven't used Barton, so I don't know if it a good choice for someone with good phonological skills but low working memory. It might be overkill?? You don't want to frustrate her.

 

Have you looked at Sequential Spelling? It uses spelling patterns, which might help.

 

Based on what the NP told us about DS, it is the processing speed that messes with getting thoughts onto paper. With high verbal scores but low processing, you may have a nonverbal learning disorder profile going on. If you haven't read anything about that, it might be helpful for you to do so.

 

For DS12's dysgraphia, it helps to use a graphic organizer to plan his thoughts. To be frank, he usually needs assistance getting ideas into the form, so it's not like he can be handed an organizer and have it solve all the problems. But once he gets the ideas on there, he can then turn them into sentences and group his sentences into paragraphs. He's been doing well with that approach this year, but he still gets loads of help from me at home and his intervention teacher at school. With the support, though, he can complete assignments. He is actually pretty good at creative writing and has some fun ideas about sentences to include in his papers. But trying to get information into a paragraph really takes a lot of work for him, and I suspect it always will.

 

Also, his IEP says that he is to be allowed to tell what he knows without having to write it down. So far we haven't used this accommodation much, because most of his writing is for his language arts class, and the purpose of the assignment is to work on writing skills. But when he gets to having essay questions on tests in school, being able to give the information orally might be good.

 

We also scribe for him sometimes for homework and put a note in the margin that we are writing down his answers.

 

I definitely think you are onto something there. I think that's probably what the Learning Disorder NOS is representing.

 

[PeterPan]

Feel free to do the Barton orally as well. We like the app a lot, but even that takes more time than doing spelling orally. 

 

You might eat some brown rice for lunch today and see if that helps your insomnia. B vitamins and all that. Might have to do it daily (or 3-4 times a week for a while), but it might help quietly. And it tastes good. You could make bean and rice burritos with it, yum. :)

[OneStepAtATime]

You might consider looking at the Touch Type Read Spell typing program.  It is great for reinforcement of spelling and follows an OG based system so it pairs well with Barton.  It isn't a spelling program stand alone but I think it really is good for reinforcement.  The kids like it, too.  It isn't as fun as Type to Learn 4 was but it seems to be more effective for covering typing, reading AND spelling reinforcement, as well as typing dictation.  It does not focus on speed, only accuracy (although wpm are tracked) and it shows different charts for keeping up with skill improvement.  DS likes that he can customize his work area for different background colors, different key board colors, different voice accent for the instructor, etc.  He is not fond of typing but has been fine with this program.  In fact, our subscription runs out in a few days and both kids asked me to renew it even though I think they are pretty independent at typing now (just not terribly fast but speed is increasing slowly).  I am considering doing so if I can justify the cost.

[OneStepAtATime]

https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/TouchTypeReadSpell/

 

Sale through Homeschool Buyer's Co-Op...

[zarabellesmom]

https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/TouchTypeReadSpell/

 

Sale through Homeschool Buyer's Co-Op...

Thanks! I'll check it out!