Clauses - help me.

[Guest]

We are doing Fix It, Book 2 (Robin Hood) and are supposed to be marking all of the clauses in the sentences. I don't know why this is so foreign to me, but I am completely lost as to where/when/why they are starting and stopping the clauses. I've read a few places, scattered throughout the book as to what starts them, but I'm just confused. Is there somewhere (online or maybe a book?) that I can read - as simple as possible, as I know this can get involved - all about clauses and the rules for what makes up a clause?!? TIA, feeling pretty defeated right now.

[EKS]

The Michael Clay Thompson language arts materials do a fabulous job explaining this.

[mom31257]

Both dependent and independent clauses contain a subject and verb, but a dependent clause doesn't express a complete thought. For example, this sentence starts with a dependent clause and has an independent clause as well.

 

"Because the girl was hungry, she ate the food."

 

The dependent because clause has girl and was as a subject and verb but isn't a complete thought by itself.

 

The rest of the sentence could be by itself so it's an independent clause.

 

Who/which clauses are taught in IEW and the who or which is the subject because they are relative pronouns.

Edited January 11, 2017 by mom31257

[Guest]

The Michael Clay Thompson language arts materials do a fabulous job explaining this.

 

Is there a particular book that does? I know that it is an entire program and not cheap, either. I'm mostly looking to explain it to me.

[Guest]

Mom31257 - I think I get the general idea of a main/dependent (dependent vs. independent) clause, but I'm getting stuck at marking the beginnings and ends of the clauses. 

 

For example, from what I've gathered: 

 

Clauses won't start with adverbs or prepositional phrases, but the prepositional phrases are always included at the end of the phrase. Are adverbs?

Dependent clauses can start with the clause starters (w/w, www.asia.b, that)

Commas and periods generally break up clauses.

 

Okay, here's the kind that confuses me; they have the entire thing marked as a Main/Dependent clause:

 

The calm, mysterious giant then leaned sturdily upon his staff to await Robin. 

 

I get that it starts with the subject. But then I am not sure why you include the entire "sturdily upon his staff to await Robin". If I did want to included "upon his staff" why would "to await Robin" be included, as I'm learning that is an infinitive not a prepositional phrase.  That's where I am getting confused. 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Guest

[Mrs Twain]

If you could diagram the sentence, I think it would be easy to see.

 

Your question illustrates why my kids do Rod and Staff English and not Fix It.

[Guest]

If you could diagram the sentence, I think it would be easy to see.

 

Your question illustrates why my kids do Rod and Staff English and not Fix It.

Ha ha. Well that isn't helpful. Actually, it is. I loathe R&S, but I saw today that SWB's ALL is supposed to come out in 2017, so....I'm seriously contemplating a switch. We were loving it. :(

[Mrs Twain]

Here is a feeble try--

 

A clause would have a subject and a predicate, including all the words and phrases that modify them.

[Mrs Twain]

"The, calm, mysterious"

These words modify the subject "giant," so they are included in the clause. They are all adjectives.

 

"Sturdily, upon his staff, then, to await them"

These words and phrases all modify the verb "leaned," so they are included in the clause. They are all acting as adverbs.

[EMPgirl]

Maybe try asking on the IEW Forum. There is a Fix-It section and the IEW ladies are very helpful with answering questions. You can sign up from the website, under the support tab, I think.

 

We are working on book 3, and sometimes we have trouble figuring out where to end the clauses, too.

 

What helps me is to go thru the whole sentence and mark all the Verbs first, then the Subjects, then underline all the prepositional phrases. The prepositional phrases on the end are included in the clause, then the next S/V are usually another clause. If I'm not sure where a clause ends, I leave it open and just look for the beginning of the next clause. That seems to make the previous ending easier to see. We are learning and improving.

 

Yea, reading back over my advice, maybe you better go to the IEW forum ðŸ˜. Those ladies are much better explainers 🤓

[yvonne]

Rod & Staff's English Handbook is a great, clear explanation of grammar topics, even if you don't like the R&S English textbooks. 

 

I think the best way to get a handle on clauses is look at a bunch of practice sentences. Googling "clause worksheets" will bring up a bunch. Here's one set.
 

 

 

Mom31257 - I think I get the general idea of a main/dependent (dependent vs. independent) clause, but I'm getting stuck at marking the beginnings and ends of the clauses. 

 

For example, from what I've gathered: 

 

Clauses won't start with adverbs or prepositional phrases, but the prepositional phrases are always included at the end of the phrase. Are adverbs?

Dependent clauses can start with the clause starters (w/w, www.asia.b, that)

Commas and periods generally break up clauses.

 

Okay, here's the kind that confuses me; they have the entire thing marked as a Main/Dependent clause:

 

The calm, mysterious giant then leaned sturdily upon his staff to await Robin. 

 

I get that it starts with the subject. But then I am not sure why you include the entire "sturdily upon his staff to await Robin". If I did want to included "upon his staff" why would "to await Robin" be included, as I'm learning that is an infinitive not a prepositional phrase.  That's where I am getting confused. 

 

A clause is a group of words with a subject and a verb.  All phrases must be part of some clause.

 

1) I always look for the verb/s first. Everything hinges on the verb/s!

 

The calm, mysterious giant then leaned sturdily upon his staff to await Robin.

 

In your sentence, "leaned" is the verb. (You're right--"to await" is an infinitive. "To await Robin" is an infinitive phrase because Robin tells whom he's awaiting.)

2) Any other verb besides "leaned"?  No!  If you only have one verb, there can only be one clause.

 

3) Find the subject.  Who leaned?  giant

 

4) Your sentence skeleton (simple subject + simple verb) is ...  giant leaned

 

All the other words in the clause hang on those words.  "The," "calm," and "mysterious" all describe  & go with the giant. They're adjectives.

 

"Then" is an adverb describing/modifying "leaned." When did he lean on his staff? Then

 

"Sturdily" is another adverb telling how he leaned.

 

"Upon his staff" is a prepositional phrase telling where he leaned, so it's an adverbial prepositional phrase and is tied to "leaned."

 

"To await Robin" is an infinitive phrase. An infinitive phrase is an infinitive ("to await") + any modifiers and/or complements ("Robin".)  In a way "to await Robin" answers why he leans on his staff, so "to await Robin" is attached/goes with your verb.   Besides, there's no other clause that that infinitive phrase can belong to! The whole sentence makes up the clause.

 

Phrases can't just hang out on their own. They're always part of some clause. You just have to figure out WHICH clause.

 

[Guest]

Hi Yvonne, Gosh thanks for your help! Some of that makes sense, some of it overwhelms me, lol. I do have the R&S handbook, so I think I'll pull that out. 

 

 

Phrases can't just hang out on their own. They're always part of some clause. You just have to figure out WHICH clause.

 

Okay if I can pick your brain some more, here was our sentence from today:

 

When the path he took sharply curved, it brought him to a broad, pebbly stream, spanned by a narrow wooden bridge.

 

And here is how it is marked in the TM; parentheses mean a dependent clause, and the brackets are the main (independent) clause:

 

(When the path (he took) sharply curved), [it brought him to a broad, pebbly stream], spanned by a narrow wooden bridge.

 

Their comment being that "spanned by a narrow wooden bridge" is not a clause but a phrase. The only thing that would tip me off NOT to include that phrase is that there was a comma separating it, otherwise, I don't know why that's not part of the earlier clause. Doesn't it describe the stream?

 

I was reminded today that grammar is messy. I don't like messy.  :tongue_smilie:

[Mrs Twain]

Hi Yvonne, Gosh thanks for your help! Some of that makes sense, some of it overwhelms me, lol. I do have the R&S handbook, so I think I'll pull that out.

 

 

Okay if I can pick your brain some more, here was our sentence from today:

 

When the path he took sharply curved, it brought him to a broad, pebbly stream, spanned by a narrow wooden bridge.

 

And here is how it is marked in the TM; parentheses mean a dependent clause, and the brackets are the main (independent) clause:

 

(When the path (he took) sharply curved), [it brought him to a broad, pebbly stream], spanned by a narrow wooden bridge.

 

Their comment being that "spanned by a narrow wooden bridge" is not a clause but a phrase. The only thing that would tip me off NOT to include that phrase is that there was a comma separating it, otherwise, I don't know why that's not part of the earlier clause. Doesn't it describe the stream?

 

I was reminded today that grammar is messy. I don't like messy. :tongue_smilie:

I think the "spanned by a narrow bridge" is actually a dependent clause. It is an adjective clause where the "which was" at the beginning was left off/implied.

 

The clause would be:

"which was spanned by a narrow bridge" and it modifies the noun "stream."

 

Maybe the grammar gurus can weigh in. I am merely an amateur grammar enthusiast.

[yvonne]

I'm just an amateur grammar enthusiast, too, but here's my stab at it....

 

When the path he took sharply curved, it brought him to a broad, pebbly stream, spanned by a narrow wooden bridge.

 

Ok. I lied. I look for the main part of the sentence first and THEN look for verbs.

 

I see two chunks:

"When the path he took sharply curved"

 

"it brought him to a broad, pebbly stream, spanned by a narrow wooden bridge"

 

The first chunk is NOT a complete sentence. You cannot tell someone, "When the path he took sharply curved."  It has a subject and a verb; therefore, it is a clause. However, it is not a complete thought. It does not tell something completely. Therefore, it is a dependent clause.

 

The second chunk IS a complete idea. "It brought him to a broad, pebbly stream, spanned by a narrow wooden bridge." Subject, verb, complete idea = an independent clause.

 

First chunk...

1) What's the verb?

That's a little tricky. It seems like it might be "took," but "he took" can't be the skeleton (the meat) of your clause because you wouldn't say, "When .... he took..., it brought him to a broad, pebbly stream,..."

You could say, "When the path sharply curved, it brought him to a broad, pebbly stream...."  So the main verb in this first chunk/clause is "curved." 

 

2) Subject?   

What curved?  "the path"

 

So your skeleton (simple subject - simple verb) for the first chunk/dependent clause is:  path curved

 

This clause answers the question when. When did the path bring him to the stream? When it sharply curved. A dependent clause that tells when something happens is an adverbial clause.

 

"He took" is another "chunk." It has a subject (he) and a verb (took), so it is a clause (not a phrase.)

The clause "he took" tells WHICH path sharply curved?  Not any path. Not all the paths. The path "he took" sharply curved.  So the clause "he took" is an adjectival clause because it describes/modifies/is attached to the noun "path."

 

So... first "chunk"..... "When the path (he took) sharply curved" is a dependent adjectival clause ("he took") WITHIN a dependent adverbial clause ("when the path sharply curved.") 

 

HOW COOL IS THAT?!?! :)

 

 

Second chunk, which also happens to be a clause:

 

 

"it brought him to a broad, pebbly stream, spanned by a narrow wooden bridge"

 

1) Verb?

"brought"

 

2) Subject of this independent clause?

"Who/what brought him?"  "It"

 

3) Skeleton (simple subject + simple verb):   It brought

 

What else do we have in this independent clause...

4) "Him" answers whom did it bring, therefore, it is the direct object (if you care.)

 

5) "to a broad, pebbly stream" is a prepositional phrase. It answers the question where, so it is an adverbial prepositional phrase. As an adverbial thing, it's attached/modifies the verb "brought."  It cannot be a clause because 1) it starts with a preposition, 2) it does not have a subject & verb.

 

6) "spanned by a narrow wooden bridge"

Looks scary, but look at what that group of words modifies!  What is "spanned by a narrow wooden bridge" describing?  The stream!   So this group of words is modifying a NOUN, which means that this group is some sort of adjectival thing.

 

A group of words with a subject & a verb is a clause. This does not have a subject, although it LOOKS like it has a verb, so it cannot be a clause.

 

It is, however, a group of words that go together, so it's some sort of phrase.

 

"Spanned" is the past participle of the verb "to span."  It isn't really used as an action verb here bec there is no subject. It doesn't say "The bridge spanned the stream," or "The stream was spanned by the bridge." 

 

"Spanned" is a participle. It's in a phrase "spanned by a narrow wooden bridge." So, we have a participial phrase, modifying stream.

 

This participial phrase contains a participle ("spanned") + a prepositional phrase ("by a narrow wooden bridge.") 

The prepositional phrase tells how the stream was spanned, so it is specifically an adverbial prepositional phrase.

 

 

 

So, this second, independent clause, "it brought him to a broad, pebbly stream, spanned by a narrow wooden bridge,"  has..

 

subject: it

verb: brought

direct object: him

adverbial prepositional phrase: to a broad, pebbly stream (modifies "brought")

participial phrase: spanned by a narrow wooden bridge (modifies "stream")

        (And, if you want to be particular, "by a narrow wooden bridge" is an adverbial prepositional phrase inside the participial phrase.)

 

 

I'm not sure why they left that participial phrase dangling outside the independent clause!  It definitely describes "stream," so it should be included in the independent clause!  Random prepositional/participial phrases don't just glom onto clauses like barnacles. It's either in a clause, or it shouldn't be in the sentence!

 

 

ETA: P 45-46 in the R&S English Handbook has a more thorough explanation of participles, if you're interested, as I'm sure you are! Who wouldn't be? LOL

 

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by yvonne

[Mrs Twain]

Phoenix, the reason for marking the clauses is so you will know where commas need to go. That is the point of the exercise, so it is actually important to understand (at least in my opinion).