Bravewriter (or other writing) for 15yo

[Matryoshka]

Trying to figure out what to do for dd15 in fall.  Then the plan is for her to take English Comp 101 at the CC in the spring.

 

She knows how to write and structure an essay, and she's already written multiple MLA papers. Her grammar and mechanics are excellent. But she doesn't like to write, and her writing is perfunctory.  Git 'er done.

 

I talked to Julie B a while back, and she said she'd recommend Kidswrite Intermediate anyway - and I think she might be right, as that will focus on the actual writing and voice, rather than formula and structure.  So that's what we'll start with.

 

Then she said since dd already had decent experience with Expository Essays and MLA papers, she'd let her take Advanced Composition, which would be something new and hopefully be really good prep for transitioning to CC English.  But... it seems to be only offered once, and as the first class in the fall.  I don't think it's a good first class (I could technically have signed her up for KI in the summer, but I didn't even attempt to suggest it, as I know a writing class in the summer would be a big NO for dd...).

 

So... seems we should choose between the Expository Essay and MLA paper classes?  I'm leaning toward MLA, since dd prefers writing about something she can research.  And I'm thinking the ENG 101 class in the spring will be mostly expository, and that would be balanced?  Or?

 

Anyone have any experience with either class or teacher (one would be Jen Holman, the other Susanne Barrett)?

 

Last thing she wrote was a literary piece on Romeo and Juliet with Center for Lit.  She was supposed to write an MLA history paper for me over the summer (since we barely got to history in the spring), but I've kind of given up on that...  this is why I need a class.  

 

Or any other idea for a non-Bravewriter writing class after KI?  NOT creative or literary based.  Something that requires analysis not about literature would be good, though.  I'd love to find something that is not 'how to write an essay' but 'you know how to write an essay, let's talk about how to write a really good essay.'

 

 

Edited July 1, 2016 by Matryoshka

[Pen]

Hmm.  Don't know. Ds is doing KW-Int. this summer.  If there is still room in it, maybe your dd could do it and then do Adv. Comp in fall.  Maybe you'd be wrong about her saying no to writing in the summer.

[Matryoshka]

Hmm.  Don't know. Ds is doing KW-Int. this summer.  If there is still room in it, maybe your dd could do it and then do Adv. Comp in fall.  Maybe you'd be wrong about her saying no to writing in the summer.

 

Already looked; the summer class is full (and starts Tuesday).  I probably should have jumped on it when I first saw it, but most of the fall classes weren't listed yet and I was hoping more might be added.  Lots more have been added, but Adv Comp is still only in the first fall slot.  Sigh.  She's also starting a summer CC drawing class in a couple of weeks, and finishing Alg 2 over the summer, both of which she likes , but that's another reason I was loath to adding something else she doesn't.

[Matryoshka]

Maybe you'd be wrong about her saying no to writing in the summer.

 

And... unfortunately I know my kid all too well.  She is ... strong-willed.

 

I was just looking for other options and found a 6-week Rhetoric class by Home2Teach, which like BW Adv Comp analyzes short pieces and teaches things like ethos and pathos.  I told her it could teach her to write so she could bend people to her will - that idea she liked.  :001_rolleyes:

 

Unfortunately, Home2Teach is really stinky about letting you sign up for what you want to sign up for and wants you to go through their sequence.  I've contacted them to see if this could work...

Edited July 1, 2016 by Matryoshka

[Pen]

And... unfortunately I know my kid all too well.  She is ... strong-willed.

 

I was just looking for other options and found a 6-week Rhetoric class by Home2Teach, which like BW Adv Comp analyzes short pieces and teaches things like ethos and pathos.  I told her it could teach her to write so she could bend people to her will - that idea she liked.  :001_rolleyes:

 

 

 

That's really funny! Bet I could sell my ds with an idea like that too!  

[Pen]

Maybe... she doesn't need anything else between now and Eng. Comp 101?

[Matryoshka]

Maybe... she doesn't need anything else between now and Eng. Comp 101?

 

Well, of course that is her argument. :lol:  The accuplacer did already put her into Eng 101 when she took it last spring, but I really feel like she needs to keep writing something.  She won't have to do any writing in any of her other fall classes (Chem, US Hist and Computer Graphics at the CC).  The US Hist prof apparently only gives T/F tests... 

 

I'm also going to try to get her to listen to some good books on audio, since I can't get her to read anything.  Did I mention she was stubborn?

[yvonne]

 

She was supposed to write an MLA history paper for me over the summer (since we barely got to history in the spring), but I've kind of given up on that...  this is why I need a class. 

 

If she needs to write the history paper to get credit for spring semester's history class, why not have her do it with a WriteGuide tutor? It sounds like it's not going to happen unless she's accountable to an outside person. That's not out of the ordinary for a teen. So, have her write the paper and have it reviewed and then graded by Write Guide or some other paper grading service. That could be her grade, or most of her grade, for last spring's history credit.

[Julie of KY]

... I could make an argument for any of your choices. The teachers are both very good for those classes.

 

She'd probably have more opportunity to work on voice in the Expository Essay class, but would already know much of the structure of either class. I think either class would be good to repeat even if she already knows the material because the teachers are so good at drawing more out of every student.

 

Susanne Barrett in the MLA research essay class is a stickler for every fine detail. All the formatting, grammar, citations, outline, etc. It's a great way to work on creating good habits for research and writing. Since so much of the MLA paper will be based on research and quoting/paraphrasing others, I don't think as much of the student's voice shines through compared to the Expository Essay class. The MLA class however makes you learn every step of notetaking, outlining, rough draft, revising, etc.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Julie of KY

[Matryoshka]

... I could make an argument for any of your choices. The teachers are both very good for those classes.

 

She'd probably have more opportunity to work on voice in the Expository Essay class, but would already know much of the structure of either class. I think either class would be good to repeat even if she already knows the material because the teachers are so good at drawing more out of every student.

 

Susanne Barrett in the MLA research essay class is a stickler for every fine detail. All the formatting, grammar, citations, outline, etc. It's a great way to work on creating good habits for research and writing. Since so much of the MLA paper will be based on research and quoting/paraphrasing others, I don't think as much of the student's voice shines through compared to the Expository Essay class. The MLA class however makes you learn every step of notetaking, outlining, rough draft, revising, etc.

 

Thanks for the very helpful feedback.  Now you have me leaning towards Expository Essay, maaybe... could you tell me more about the focus is in that class?  What are the two kinds of expository essay they say they cover (is that the open and closed form they mention later.... I'm not sure I know what that means...)?  How do they choose the topics?  How much focus is on the structure vs. voice and going beyond the basics?

 

Have you used Jen Holman as a teacher?

 

She's done a lot with notetaking, outlining, revising... honestly, research papers are the ones I feel most comfortable teaching - although I've outsourced most of her writing, for those papers I've been able to give a lot of support outside of class.  Although she still resists note cards.  I loooove note cards, lol...

[Julie of KY]

I've used Jen Holman as a teacher for a different class. My boys have had two other teachers for Expository Essay. The class material is the same no matter who teaches, the teacher feedback has been good from all our teachers, including Jen in a different class.

 

Expository Essay - Along the way while learning about essays, you also work on some details like thesis statements and paraphrasing, etc. The first essay is the open essay. You are initially given an assignment to come up with various thesis statements within a couple of topics. You are looking at pure knowledge questions (can you train a fish to do tricks?), practical application questions and value questions.  You will then end up writing a paper with one of these and you don't have a lot of freedom to pick other subjects for the first essay. It's a pretty open ended paper and is poses a question without completely resolving it. My second son wrote a paper on Is it ethical to break rules and take a penalty in sports if it advances your team in the game? For the second essay, you are given a list of about 10-15 general topics and you are to pick one or suggest your own to write about. It's a basic five paragraph essay. Teaching is done on structure, and some of the assignments focus on this, but the bulk of the work is in writing and revising the papers. A fair amount of time is also spent on exploring your topic once you have it. This provides a lot of foundation for writing a better paper. A lot of freedom as well as encouragement is given in developing their own voice. I find the teachers are fantastic at drawing words out of my kids by asking them questions and not telling them what to say. While the class teaches the structure, I find the real benefit of the class is the instructor growing my writers into better writers.

 

MLA Research Essay - Excellent class taught by Susanne Barrett. Very focused on structure and technique. Much less room to develop a voice in writing. FABULOUS at teaching HOW to do a research essay as well as how to follow instructions. My oldest found this to be a very difficult class, but then he turned around and was able to write research papers for other classes and get excellent grades on them.

[Pen]

Well, of course that is her argument. :lol:  The accuplacer did already put her into Eng 101 when she took it last spring, but I really feel like she needs to keep writing something.  She won't have to do any writing in any of her other fall classes (Chem, US Hist and Computer Graphics at the CC).  The US Hist prof apparently only gives T/F tests... 

 

I'm also going to try to get her to listen to some good books on audio, since I can't get her to read anything.  Did I mention she was stubborn?

 

 

My ds is going to public school next year. We were too much butting heads this last year.  I offered BW to him for the summer if he wanted it, on the grounds that I thought it would make next year easier for him, but that it was up to him whether he wanted to take it or not. At first he said no. Then he decided yes. Possibly my saying "Okay" to his "no" made a difference in his changing his mind.

 

You could similarly offer her a writing course for before her Eng 101, but let her decide.  To be honest, 3 fall CC classes for a 15 yo seems like enough to me, even if none involve writing. Is there a winter term?