Math for struggling 6th grader

[homeschoolmama37]

I don't really post on the forums, actually I never post. But, I need to make a post to use classifieds, so I thought I would get any opinions I can.

My daughter struggles with math. She is probably about 2 grade levels behind. She is a hands-on visual learner, and doesn't do well with just listening or looking at an example. She can go through the motions, but doesn't really understand what she is doing, nor does she typically ever remember what she needs to.

We know that TT, MUS, Saxon and Math in Focus do not work. I'm considering RightStart Math.

She has some slight ADD tendencies- can't focus for very long, tends to wander in thought rather than paying attention to the lesson.

She also has retention issues, but otherwise an excellent reading and writing skills.

Any thoughts or recommendations?  TIA!

[mama25angels]

R&S math. I would give her the placement test but I'll bet she could start in book 5 and be fine. You will need to sit with her for a bit until she gets used to the format, you could even spread the lesson over several days if you needed to. I've also heard wonderful thins about CLE.

[wapiti]

I strongly recommend posting on the Learning Challenges forum for advice about programs, approach, etc.

 

My two cents:  two grade levels behind is a red flag for learning issues of some type.  I might look into symptoms of dyscalculia.  I might also want to rule out developmental vision issues with a covd optometrist.

[She Reads a Lot]

RightStart Math is fantastic! I didn't know that my son had dyslexia when we started homeschooling in first grade. Many dyslesxic kids have trouble memorizing math facts, but he was so busy trying to beat me at the games, he learned his facts easily. RS is excellent for kids who struggle because the manipulatives help them to understand the math.

 

The second edition apparently uses the manipulatives more, so do be sure to use the second edition if you go with RS.

Edited June 9, 2016 by She Reads a Lot

[homeschoolmama37]

I strongly recommend posting on the Learning Challenges forum for advice about programs, approach, etc.

 

My two cents:  two grade levels behind is a red flag for learning issues of some type.  I might look into symptoms of dyscalculia.  I might also want to rule out developmental vision issues with a covd optometrist.

 

Yes, I became aware this past school year that it might be a learning difficulty. Because she is so well advanced reading and writing, it never occurred to me that it could be a learning issue of any kind. I don't know why I didn't see it before. We are looking into some testing now and hope to have everything figured out over the summer.

 

And thanks for the recommendation of the learning challenges board. I will definitely post there.

 

*Edited to say: She was in vision therapy for about a year and half with convergence issues. That seems to be cleared up, and she's doing so much better. We address those issues in 1st/2nd grade.

Edited June 9, 2016 by homeschoolmama37

[homeschoolmama37]

R&S math. I would give her the placement test but I'll bet she could start in book 5 and be fine. You will need to sit with her for a bit until she gets used to the format, you could even spread the lesson over several days if you needed to. I've also heard wonderful thins about CLE.

 

Do you mean Rod & Staff? I have looked at a little, but didn't consider it much. I tried their English program with her this year, but not the best for her. She works really well with Latin Road to English Grammar. Is their math similar to their English? And it is teacher intensive, right? I have no problem with that, just asking. I know she needs my help and teaching, so that's no big deal.

 

I have used CLE with her in the past, and we liked it, but she hit a brick wall toward the end of 2nd grade, and then it all just fell apart- no retention. I didn't know what to do, so I switched things up again and tried LOF. That was okay, but not enough consistent practice and review.

[homeschoolmama37]

RightStart Math is fantastic! I didn't know that my son had dyslexia when we started homeschooling in first grade. Many dyslesxic kids have trouble memorizing math facts, but he was so busy trying to beat me at the games, he learned his facts easily. RS is excellent for kids who struggle because the manipulatives help them to understand the math.

 

The second edition apparently uses the manipulatives more, so do be sure to use the second edition if you go with RS.

 

I am thinking the manipulatives, the games and the presentation may be exactly what she needs that RightStart can provide. I know she's not dyslexic, she's an amazing reader and has never had any issues with reading or writing. But someone here mentioned dyscalculia. And it's been mentioned to me before in other circles.

 

[mama25angels]

Do you mean Rod & Staff? I have looked at a little, but didn't consider it much. I tried their English program with her this year, but not the best for her. She works really well with Latin Road to English Grammar. Is their math similar to their English? And it is teacher intensive, right? I have no problem with that, just asking. I know she needs my help and teaching, so that's no big deal.

 

I have used CLE with her in the past, and we liked it, but she hit a brick wall toward the end of 2nd grade, and then it all just fell apart- no retention. I didn't know what to do, so I switched things up again and tried LOF. That was okay, but not enough consistent practice and review.

Yes, I meant rod and staff. it's not teacher intensive for us, I read over the explanations with my Ds and we do the class practice on the whit board or scrap paper. In the beginning I had him do every problem in the exercises spread over several days. His math skills have improved a lot since we began in December so, now I have him do all of the problems in the new lesson that was taught. I allow him to do the evens or odds in the review sections unless there was something he struggled with. HTH.

[homeschoolmama37]

mama25angels- Thanks for that info on R&S. I will look at more. I had looked at it before, but not thoroughly. I know I would have to make ti more teacher intensive for my daughter- she has stated many times that she struggles just reading something to learn math. So I'm not sure I could leave her to do it independently. Thank you for the recommendation!

[mama25angels]

mama25angels- Thanks for that info on R&S. I will look at more. I had looked at it before, but not thoroughly. I know I would have to make ti more teacher intensive for my daughter- she has stated many times that she struggles just reading something to learn math. So I'm not sure I could leave her to do it independently. Thank you for the recommendation!

I would like to recommend two more programs that might work for your dd, MUS and Mastering Mathematics.

[sbgrace]

I think looking into dyscalcula and even formal testing for math or other learning related issues generally would be a good idea at this point if that is possible for her. If dyscalcula looks possible, parents on learning challenges can help you with direction. When you know what's going on, you can make better choices. So an evaluation would likely be really helpful.

 

I was going to mention CLE, which is working well for my special needs son, though I see you have used it in the past. It's the best I know of for retention. It also keeps his attention better than any other program we've used because of the variety of problems in each lesson. He does half of it on his own and half with me. This is the first math program he has ever done even somewhat independently. Do you know what made it all fall apart in 2nd?

 

RightStart ends around her age. She'd test lower than age level I'm sure, but I'm not sure it's worth doing what it would take to jump into the program for a level or so and then have to jump out. I don't regret RightStart, but it wasn't a great fit for my son with similar issues as your daughter. He would tune out before we ever got to the meat of the lessons. I never had a handle on whether he was retaining. It worked great for my other son, though. I was using the first generation program, and maybe it's changed now. I really think I might look in other directions, just because of her age. 

 

 

[Ellie]

Do you mean Rod & Staff? I have looked at a little, but didn't consider it much. I tried their English program with her this year, but not the best for her. She works really well with Latin Road to English Grammar. Is their math similar to their English? And it is teacher intensive, right? I have no problem with that, just asking. I know she needs my help and teaching, so that's no big deal.

 

 

 

The first three grade levels of Rod and Staff math require you to actually teach, but the scripted lessons only take about, oh, 10 or 15 minutes. After that the children do their seatwork independently.

 

From fourth grade up, everything the children need to know is right there in their textbooks. No new material is introduced in the oral lessons. Children who work well independently can do it alone; children who need a little face time with someone get that in the oral classtime, which, again, only takes about 15 minutes, and then they do their seatwork independently.

 

IOW, I don't consider it teacher *intensive.* The teacher involvement is up to you. :-)

 

[homeschoolmama37]

I think looking into dyscalcula and even formal testing for math or other learning related issues generally would be a good idea at this point if that is possible for her. If dyscalcula looks possible, parents on learning challenges can help you with direction. When you know what's going on, you can make better choices. So an evaluation would likely be really helpful.

 

I was going to mention CLE, which is working well for my special needs son, though I see you have used it in the past. It's the best I know of for retention. It also keeps his attention better than any other program we've used because of the variety of problems in each lesson. He does half of it on his own and half with me. This is the first math program he has ever done even somewhat independently. Do you know what made it all fall apart in 2nd?

 

RightStart ends around her age. She'd test lower than age level I'm sure, but I'm not sure it's worth doing what it would take to jump into the program for a level or so and then have to jump out. I don't regret RightStart, but it wasn't a great fit for my son with similar issues as your daughter. He would tune out before we ever got to the meat of the lessons. I never had a handle on whether he was retaining. It worked great for my other son, though. I was using the first generation program, and maybe it's changed now. I really think I might look in other directions, just because of her age. 

Okay I wanted to comment on two things, but I'm still learning how to use the "quote" feature on this board and it quoted your entire comment!  Anyway...

 

In regards to CLE- when reviewed topics were mastered, the curriculum would eventually drop those topics for a time as it would move on to new topics, then bring up topics from early in the 2nd grade year, and she had no idea how to do them. We were both confused and frustrated to the point of tears, and so my natural conclusion was, "Okay, on to the next curriculum because this one obviously didn't work." But, the thing is, it DID work for most of the 2nd grad level- 8 light units! But when it became obvious than everything she had mastered previously was nowhere to be found in her brain, I didn't know what to do except try to find something different. That was probably my mistake in hindsight- I should have stayed with her where she was and MADE IT WORK. I kind of feel like it's my own fault, but I just want her to move forward successfully at this point.

 

In regards to your RightStart comment- This is my biggest hangup- "RightStart ends around her age. She'd test lower than age level I'm sure, but I'm not sure it's worth doing what it would take to jump into the program for a level or so and then have to jump out."  Though I know she would test into Level C, as I've already administered the test, I just feel sort of, I don't know how to explain it: maybe reluctant? Probably mostly also because it is a significant investment and that makes me a little fearful. What if we hate it? What if it makes her cry? What then?

 

I am really leaning towards CLE, though another commenter (I also have this posted on the "learning challenges" board) suggested not using CLE for the simple lack of hands-on learning, which I know is very true.

 

 

 

So I'm thinking maybe of working through Miquon. Thoughts on that? This was my post on the other board in reply to this same issue:

"A quick thought: the other day I mentioned to her MUS, and that I thought maybe the blocks and the video teaching might help. She told me that when she watched the videos, she didn't understand most of his teaching.

 

But what if I use MUS and teach it to her myself without using the videos?

 

The problem, however, has been that she usually doesn't comprehend what I am telling her. Is that a hearing issue or a comprehension issue of some kind?

 

She said she learns best by "doing".  ???? When she said that, my thoughts went immediately to Miquon- this a program that really has no teaching as kids "discover" math on their own. So I thought I would take her through the Miquon books over the summer and into the fall and see how she does.

 

Thoughts?" (I posted this reply on the learning challenges board just a while ago.)

 

After we work through Miquon, then I could test her again, and see where she would fit into CLE at that point. I know she needs more hands-on, maybe some games which I have a book full of math games. I'm not sure what else.

 

 

 

[homeschoolmama37]

I'm so sorry for that terribly long reply!

[homeschoolmama37]

The first three grade levels of Rod and Staff math require you to actually teach, but the scripted lessons only take about, oh, 10 or 15 minutes. After that the children do their seatwork independently.

 

From fourth grade up, everything the children need to know is right there in their textbooks. No new material is introduced in the oral lessons. Children who work well independently can do it alone; children who need a little face time with someone get that in the oral classtime, which, again, only takes about 15 minutes, and then they do their seatwork independently.

 

IOW, I don't consider it teacher *intensive.* The teacher involvement is up to you. :-)

 

 

I already know reading a lesson from a textbook is not going to work for her. I would have to be beside her walking her through it and making sure she understands the concepts. Especially for new material.

[TKDmom]

I <3 Miquon. And it isn't a huge investment. So, go for it over the summer and let her do however many pages she wants at a time. Or set a timer for 20 min or so.

The whole "learning through doing" would definitely align with Miquon. And make sure you buy the Lab Sheet Annotations for explanations on how to do pages that aren't totally obvious.

[TKDmom]

Also, you can use manipulatives with whatever curriculum you choose. I keep c-rods, base 10 blocks, and the AL Abacus on hand for my kid who needs hands-on learning.

 

Eta: Which makes me think of the Education Unboxed videos. How to do math with c-rods.

Edited June 11, 2016 by TKDmom

[sbgrace]

Okay I wanted to comment on two things, but I'm still learning how to use the "quote" feature on this board and it quoted your entire comment!  Anyway...

 

In regards to CLE- when reviewed topics were mastered, the curriculum would eventually drop those topics for a time as it would move on to new topics, then bring up topics from early in the 2nd grade year, and she had no idea how to do them. We were both confused and frustrated to the point of tears, and so my natural conclusion was, "Okay, on to the next curriculum because this one obviously didn't work." But, the thing is, it DID work for most of the 2nd grad level- 8 light units! But when it became obvious than everything she had mastered previously was nowhere to be found in her brain, I didn't know what to do except try to find something different. That was probably my mistake in hindsight- I should have stayed with her where she was and MADE IT WORK. I kind of feel like it's my own fault, but I just want her to move forward successfully at this point.

 

In regards to your RightStart comment- This is my biggest hangup- "RightStart ends around her age. She'd test lower than age level I'm sure, but I'm not sure it's worth doing what it would take to jump into the program for a level or so and then have to jump out."  Though I know she would test into Level C, as I've already administered the test, I just feel sort of, I don't know how to explain it: maybe reluctant? Probably mostly also because it is a significant investment and that makes me a little fearful. What if we hate it? What if it makes her cry? What then?

 

I am really leaning towards CLE, though another commenter (I also have this posted on the "learning challenges" board) suggested not using CLE for the simple lack of hands-on learning, which I know is very true.

 

 

 

So I'm thinking maybe of working through Miquon. Thoughts on that? This was my post on the other board in reply to this same issue:

"A quick thought: the other day I mentioned to her MUS, and that I thought maybe the blocks and the video teaching might help. She told me that when she watched the videos, she didn't understand most of his teaching.

 

But what if I use MUS and teach it to her myself without using the videos?

 

The problem, however, has been that she usually doesn't comprehend what I am telling her. Is that a hearing issue or a comprehension issue of some kind?

 

She said she learns best by "doing".  ???? When she said that, my thoughts went immediately to Miquon- this a program that really has no teaching as kids "discover" math on their own. So I thought I would take her through the Miquon books over the summer and into the fall and see how she does.

 

Thoughts?" (I posted this reply on the learning challenges board just a while ago.)

 

After we work through Miquon, then I could test her again, and see where she would fit into CLE at that point. I know she needs more hands-on, maybe some games which I have a book full of math games. I'm not sure what else.

 

Education unboxed, which is free online, has videos to use c-rods to teach math concepts. You might check those out to see what you/see think. I used c-rods with Math in Focus and CLE both to add hands on to various concepts. I have not used Miquon to be able to really give thoughts, particularly on retention and spiral, but I do think I'd investigate it.

 

It does seem weird that she retained through 8 booklets and then fell apart, because those issues should have shown up all along I would have thought.

 

But, honestly, I think you need an evaluation. It really does sound like there is something going on, and when you know what that is you'll be able to make more informed choices. You may need something like Ronit Bird.

 

 

 

[homeschoolmama37]

I will probably now use Miquon over the summer and assess where we are at in a few months.

 

Education Unboxed sounds great. I'll be sure to check that out as well.