CLE vs. BJU english/grammar

[Meadowlark]

I'm considering either of these two for next year (3rd and 4th grade)

 

We've done FLL in the past and it's just working for any of us. I think we're all quite visual and sitting on the couch just doing auditory work did not work at all.

 

I'm looking for something semi-independent, which I know both are. I think the difference being CLE is written to the student and BJU is not. I have the BJU manual and realize I would need to do the teaching upfront. I'm okay with that (we use their math) but having it written to the student appeals to me too because I need to get them both a little more independent, and I'm not sure how to squeeze everything in as it is.  My concern with CLE is that very little actual teaching will get done. Meaning, they will do the pages and then I will be correcting it and reteaching as an afterthought. I like the spiral idea of CLE a whole lot, but BJU is so nice and colorful too. I also think spiral for grammar concepts is important and CLE does that very well. 

 

I guess I'm just not sure how CLE LA actually works or what it looks like in a home. If I have 2 different levels, do I meet with each of them individually and "teach" the lesson, or go over it? How long would that take? How does it work in your home? I also plan to pull some BJU writing (I own the 3rd grade manual/worktext) and do some of their writing if I go with CLE.

[Ellie]

If you're going to use some of BJUP's writing even if you do CLE, then just do BJUP and call it good. You won't have to spend that much time teaching, and one can be doing other school work independently while you teach the other.

[Storygirl]

CLE and BJU are very different. We've used both -- BJU at 2nd and 4th grade levels, and CLE at 1st and 5th through 7th. I also used FLL at the first and second grade level.

 

I didn't use the BJU teacher's manual, but just taught the material that was present in the workbook pages. I found the grammar to be very light. I liked the graphic organizers and step-by-step practice in the writing portions. I didn't like that that chapters alternated between writing and grammar, so that we would go for two weeks without writing, then two weeks without grammar.

 

CLE is weak on writing instruction. I agree that adding in what you already own (BJU would be good, or something else of your choosing) would be wise. I really consider CLE to be a grammar program, not a full language arts program. There is some writing included, but it is not enough, and it is not instructive enough about the writing process. Spelling is okay if your child can learn from a list of thematically related words. The grammar is excellent and rigorous. For some it is too intense.

 

Each lesson of CLE includes a small section of new teaching, followed by a longer review section. You could easily sit with your children and go over the new teaching with them before they do the lessons. It would only take a few minutes. Then follow up with them later in the day, after you have marked their work, to go over any corrections with them.

 

Because CLE is so rigorous, you could choose to have both children work in the 300 level. You can look at the scope and sequence online and compare it to BJU. We didn't use the 300 level, but it very well may cover all the grammar (and maybe more) as what you will find in BJU 4th grade. There would be two benefits. First, you could go over the lesson with both children at once before setting them free to do their independent pages. Secondly, you will have a more gentle build up to the rigors of the 500 level to come in later years. It's really fine to be doing the 500 level in middle school; the grammar is more advanced than what you might find in many junior high programs.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

Well if you have the tms for BJU, you know they come with CDs with supplemental materials and that usually when people are thinking BJU doesn't have enough it's because they weren't using the tm.   :)  People do it, but just saying what you already know.  

 

I like BJU stuff and am not a super huge lover of CLE just because I'm not a b&w, workbook kinda gal, nor was my dd.  But I would say CLE is FINE, and it's even STRONG for a situation where you want them independent.  There were some competitor programs that were also supposed to be independent workbooks.  We went through a fad on the boards with one a number of years ago.  Maybe it has gone out of popularity?  

 

If you want BJU but have so many kids, I would consider the videos.  Are your boys very workbooky?  Will they be ok with the length of the CLE lessons?  If not, have you looked at Abeka?  It's what the OLD, original, antique, very early editions of WTM mention, don't they?  I'd have to check mine.  I finally got some Abeka for my dd this year to touch up some stuff, and I like it.  It's very no muss, no fuss.  Don't know what I was so freaky about.  

 

I really think you could pick anything you think would get done and it will be fine.  It's kind of curious to me that you want to do the BJU writing.  It's half their grammar/writing text for those grades, and it's just really run of the mill.  It's fine, but you might find it just as easy to pick up something from IEW and do it with several of your kids at once.  Remember, BJU has their writing *throughout* their curriculum.  It's not like they are meaning to give you a full year of writing in that english tm.  They put writing in science, in history, in reading, etc.  They teach note taking in science, outlining in the reading, etc.  The materials are meant to be used together.  So it's not like buying a unit of IEW and going ok, I got a year of writing and I worked through all the skills.  BJU is spreading some of that across their other subjects.  That's why I'm saying, to me, if you like BJU so much, get the videos.   When people have a lot of kids, like you do, and no learning disabilities or other complications, the videos can be a good way to go.

Edited June 7, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Meadowlark]

CLE and BJU are very different. We've used both -- BJU at 2nd and 4th grade levels, and CLE at 1st and 5th through 7th. I also used FLL at the first and second grade level.

 

I didn't use the BJU teacher's manual, but just taught the material that was present in the workbook pages. I found the grammar to be very light. I liked the graphic organizers and step-by-step practice in the writing portions. I didn't like that that chapters alternated between writing and grammar, so that we would go for two weeks without writing, then two weeks without grammar.

 

CLE is weak on writing instruction. I agree that adding in what you already own (BJU would be good, or something else of your choosing) would be wise. I really consider CLE to be a grammar program, not a full language arts program. There is some writing included, but it is not enough, and it is not instructive enough about the writing process. Spelling is okay if your child can learn from a list of thematically related words. The grammar is excellent and rigorous. For some it is too intense.

 

Each lesson of CLE includes a small section of new teaching, followed by a longer review section. You could easily sit with your children and go over the new teaching with them before they do the lessons. It would only take a few minutes. Then follow up with them later in the day, after you have marked their work, to go over any corrections with them.

 

Because CLE is so rigorous, you could choose to have both children work in the 300 level. You can look at the scope and sequence online and compare it to BJU. We didn't use the 300 level, but it very well may cover all the grammar (and maybe more) as what you will find in BJU 4th grade. There would be two benefits. First, you could go over the lesson with both children at once before setting them free to do their independent pages. Secondly, you will have a more gentle build up to the rigors of the 500 level to come in later years. It's really fine to be doing the 500 level in middle school; the grammar is more advanced than what you might find in many junior high programs.

Thanks so much! Interesting you suggest to combine them both in 300. I had thought of combining them both in BJU 3 but didn't think about combining for CLE. I did give them both the placement test. My oldest just barely passed into the 400's and my younger placed into the 200's. So in that case, would you suggest still putting them both in 300? My oldest is pretty language oriented so I think they're pretty different in that regard.

[Meadowlark]

CLE and BJU are very different. We've used both -- BJU at 2nd and 4th grade levels, and CLE at 1st and 5th through 7th. I also used FLL at the first and second grade level.

 

I didn't use the BJU teacher's manual, but just taught the material that was present in the workbook pages. I found the grammar to be very light. I liked the graphic organizers and step-by-step practice in the writing portions. I didn't like that that chapters alternated between writing and grammar, so that we would go for two weeks without writing, then two weeks without grammar.

 

CLE is weak on writing instruction. I agree that adding in what you already own (BJU would be good, or something else of your choosing) would be wise. I really consider CLE to be a grammar program, not a full language arts program. There is some writing included, but it is not enough, and it is not instructive enough about the writing process. Spelling is okay if your child can learn from a list of thematically related words. The grammar is excellent and rigorous. For some it is too intense.

 

Each lesson of CLE includes a small section of new teaching, followed by a longer review section. You could easily sit with your children and go over the new teaching with them before they do the lessons. It would only take a few minutes. Then follow up with them later in the day, after you have marked their work, to go over any corrections with them.

 

Because CLE is so rigorous, you could choose to have both children work in the 300 level. You can look at the scope and sequence online and compare it to BJU. We didn't use the 300 level, but it very well may cover all the grammar (and maybe more) as what you will find in BJU 4th grade. There would be two benefits. First, you could go over the lesson with both children at once before setting them free to do their independent pages. Secondly, you will have a more gentle build up to the rigors of the 500 level to come in later years. It's really fine to be doing the 500 level in middle school; the grammar is more advanced than what you might find in many junior high programs.

I gave them the placement test and my older placed (barely) into the 400's and the younger placed in the 200's. Would you still suggest placing them both in the 300's?

 

ETA: Oops-I didn't think the previous one posted :-)

Edited June 7, 2016 by Meadowlark

[Meadowlark]

Well if you have the tms for BJU, you know they come with CDs with supplemental materials and that usually when people are thinking BJU doesn't have enough it's because they weren't using the tm.   :)  People do it, but just saying what you already know.  

 

I like BJU stuff and am not a super huge lover of CLE just because I'm not a b&w, workbook kinda gal, nor was my dd.  But I would say CLE is FINE, and it's even STRONG for a situation where you want them independent.  There were some competitor programs that were also supposed to be independent workbooks.  We went through a fad on the boards with one a number of years ago.  Maybe it has gone out of popularity?  

 

If you want BJU but have so many kids, I would consider the videos.  Are your boys very workbooky?  Will they be ok with the length of the CLE lessons?  If not, have you looked at Abeka?  It's what the OLD, original, antique, very early editions of WTM mention, don't they?  I'd have to check mine.  I finally got some Abeka for my dd this year to touch up some stuff, and I like it.  It's very no muss, no fuss.  Don't know what I was so freaky about.  

 

I really think you could pick anything you think would get done and it will be fine.  It's kind of curious to me that you want to do the BJU writing.  It's half their grammar/writing text for those grades, and it's just really run of the mill.  It's fine, but you might find it just as easy to pick up something from IEW and do it with several of your kids at once.  Remember, BJU has their writing *throughout* their curriculum.  It's not like they are meaning to give you a full year of writing in that english tm.  They put writing in science, in history, in reading, etc.  They teach note taking in science, outlining in the reading, etc.  The materials are meant to be used together.  So it's not like buying a unit of IEW and going ok, I got a year of writing and I worked through all the skills.  BJU is spreading some of that across their other subjects.  That's why I'm saying, to me, if you like BJU so much, get the videos.   When people have a lot of kids, like you do, and no learning disabilities or other complications, the videos can be a good way to go.

I have looked at the BJU videos. My kids thought they were kind of cheesy. I liked that it was a whole lot of talking that I wouldn't have to do, but I thought they were kind of dated and maybe drug out a bit? I don't know-it's an option but an expensive one. I know they have the $99 sale in December, but not sure I want to wait that long to start grammar.

 

As far as CLE, I didn't think I was a workbook kind of gal either, but it appeals to me because it's spiral and I think kids need spiral when it comes to grammar. We did a year of FLL and I'm just so tired of explaining over and over again what a noun is, etc. I want them to see it on a page over and over again. 

 

As for writing, well that's a quandry. Interesting that you mentioned IEW. Many people have suggested that to me, but I cannot for the life of me figure out what that program is all about. If you know how I could make it work with 2 kids, I'd be all ears. I've visited their website and I just don't get it, not to mention that it's quite expensive. The only reason I thought I'd go with BJU is that I just want to get my kids writing-pen to paper. We did WWE this year and although I think the skills are valuable in their own right, I want to go a different direction. BJU seemed to be a clearly laid out program that I could teach pretty easily. But I'm certainly open to anything else-I just know I have to get them writing. Thanks for your input!

[PeterPan]

I gave them the placement test and my older placed (barely) into the 400's and the younger placed in the 200's. Would you still suggest placing them both in the 300's?

 

ETA: Oops-I didn't think the previous one posted :-)

 

I wouldn't combine them.  CLE is inexpensive, and there's a big developmental gap.  It would frustrate them both unnecessarily.  CLE has so much review, I would go ahead and put them in where they placed, which will be on grade level.  I never used CLE LA, btw.  I tried CLE math with dd, so I just have that dab of experience.  I'm just saying from a practical standpoint it's not as flexible as say Shurley.  With Shurley you might split the difference and combine.  But for CLE, I'd give them their own thing and let them be independent.

Edited June 7, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Were you looking at SWIs or the theme books from IEW?  The theme books will have units, where each unit will work on a particular skill, much like the chapters of BJU.

 

You know what you might like is Essentials in Writing

[Storygirl]

Look at the samples online for CLE. What level of FLL did your oldest complete? If he went through the third grade level and is used to doing grammar in a workbook, he might be okay in 400. If you only worked through levels 1 and 2 of FLL and have not done any written grammar, CLE 400 will be quite a change. In that case, I would think about putting him in 300 instead. Mainly because level 500 is HARD, and it would come up soon if you start 400 in the fall.

 

If your youngest placed in 200, I'd think carefully before putting him in 300. Did he place into a certain light unit in level 200 or at the beginning? If he placed at the beginning of 200, just start there.

 

If he placed somewhere in the middle of the 200s, you could go ahead and just buy 301 for him. The first light unit of each level is actually a review of the previous level. So 301 reviews the basic instruction of level 200. It works like this: Each lesson in the light unit has two sections. The first section is a kind of pretest. If the student does well, he skips the second section, which provides more review of that same material. He moves on. If he doesn't do well, he completes the remainder of the lesson. You will see where the gaps are, and you may just be able to tutor him on individual concepts to get her up to speed.

 

When we switched to CLE, we found that there were gaps, where the previous levels of CLE had taught things my kids had not learned yet. Although it is meant for review, we used that first light unit as a teaching tool. Some sections we had to work hard on, because my kids hadn't been introduced to that concept yet, while other lessons were review for them. I believe that each lesson also tells you what light unit from the previous year included the new teaching for that concept. If he hits a wall and needs to go back to the middle of 200, you will have an idea about what light unit to start him in. so that you don't have to start in 201. On the other hand, if all of 301 seems too hard for him, set it aside, buy the complete 200 level, and save 301 for next year when he is ready for it.

 

Sometimes it's hard to tell with CLE. Placement in a lower level might be due to missing only some concepts.

 

You could buy 401 for your older son run it the same way. If it seems like the right mix for him, teach the concepts that he needs to have reinforced, and then move on to 402. If it seems difficult all around, go back to 302.

 

ETA: Edited to change gender. Somehow I was thinking you had daughters.

 

Second edit: The first light unit of each year is the only one that has that pretest- review format. It's unique to LU 201, 301, etc. If you get to the end of one year's work and move right into the next without taking a long break, in future years, you may choose to skip the first light unit and go right into the new material in the second LU for the level. But it is an excellent format for someone just joining CLE, because it reviews everything previously taught.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

By the way, I agree with OhElizabeth that skipping the TM for BJU might make the grammar in BJU seem light for most users who would just complete the workbook pages. If you decide to use BJU, definitely use the TM. I only skipped using it because English was my strong suit (it was my college degree), and I could teach the concepts myself. I wouldn't advocate most people doing that.

[Storygirl]

One more thought. There is a difference between CLE 200 and 300. CLE 200 does a lot of phonetic review and has a heavy use of diacritical markings (marking short vowels and long vowels with symbols). Some people dislike the markings. I thought I wouldn't mind them when we started 100, but grew to dislike it.

 

If your younger son will be frustrated with that, or if he doesn't need that phonics practice, keep that in mind. Take a look at the samples online to see what I mean.

[PeterPan]

Or you could use it as permission to skip grammar a year and just do copywork with the younger, putting him into 300 the following year...

[Meadowlark]

Or you could use it as permission to skip grammar a year and just do copywork with the younger, putting him into 300 the following year...

 

Could I really DO that? Haha. I know that there's plenty of time to learn grammar in 4th grade on up, but something about just abandoning it altogether makes me a tad bit uncomfortable...I don't know. I'm not a huge fan of those dialect marks. Do you think I could easily skip that or does it permeate through the whole program?

[Meadowlark]

Look at the samples online for CLE. What level of FLL did your oldest complete? If he went through the third grade level and is used to doing grammar in a workbook, he might be okay in 400. If you only worked through levels 1 and 2 of FLL and have not done any written grammar, CLE 400 will be quite a change. In that case, I would think about putting him in 300 instead. Mainly because level 500 is HARD, and it would come up soon if you start 400 in the fall.

 

If your youngest placed in 200, I'd think carefully before putting him in 300. Did he place into a certain light unit in level 200 or at the beginning? If he placed at the beginning of 200, just start there.

 

If he placed somewhere in the middle of the 200s, you could go ahead and just buy 301 for him. The first light unit of each level is actually a review of the previous level. So 301 reviews the basic instruction of level 200. It works like this: Each lesson in the light unit has two sections. The first section is a kind of pretest. If the student does well, he skips the second section, which provides more review of that same material. He moves on. If he doesn't do well, he completes the remainder of the lesson. You will see where the gaps are, and you may just be able to tutor him on individual concepts to get her up to speed.

 

When we switched to CLE, we found that there were gaps, where the previous levels of CLE had taught things my kids had not learned yet. Although it is meant for review, we used that first light unit as a teaching tool. Some sections we had to work hard on, because my kids hadn't been introduced to that concept yet, while other lessons were review for them. I believe that each lesson also tells you what light unit from the previous year included the new teaching for that concept. If he hits a wall and needs to go back to the middle of 200, you will have an idea about what light unit to start him in. so that you don't have to start in 201. On the other hand, if all of 301 seems too hard for him, set it aside, buy the complete 200 level, and save 301 for next year when he is ready for it.

 

Sometimes it's hard to tell with CLE. Placement in a lower level might be due to missing only some concepts.

 

You could buy 401 for your older son run it the same way. If it seems like the right mix for him, teach the concepts that he needs to have reinforced, and then move on to 402. If it seems difficult all around, go back to 302.

 

ETA: Edited to change gender. Somehow I was thinking you had daughters.

 

Second edit: The first light unit of each year is the only one that has that pretest- review format. It's unique to LU 201, 301, etc. If you get to the end of one year's work and move right into the next without taking a long break, in future years, you may choose to skip the first light unit and go right into the new material in the second LU for the level. But it is an excellent format for someone just joining CLE, because it reviews everything previously taught.

We did FLL 1 and 2 loosely with the boys-meaning, when we got to it. Honestly, I thought the grammar parts were kind of over their heads and I had this feeling like I didn't want to push it in 2nd grade with my younger. For the placement test, unless I missed something, it only told me what hundred to go with. For example, if he got 77 correct or more, he can go into the 400's. So I have no idea what LU to actually start with; I assume I'd start with the beginning.

 

I am considering starting my oldest with 300 though for the reasons you mentioned above. I never would've know it really vamps up in the 500's so thank you for mentioning that. Heck, when I taught 6th grade L.A, I was lucky if my honor students even knew the parts of speech, so I can see that even if he gets to the 700's by 8th grade, he'll be light years ahead.

 

One question-does 401 cover the same scope and sequence as 301, just at a higher level? That's interesting if it does. Thanks so much for your input!

[PeterPan]

Well is this the current 7 yo?  And so he's 1st grade now?  Guess I didn't know if he's 1st gr or 2nd.  If he's 1st (like my ds7), then he'd be doing copywork with a focus on basic grammar, punctuation, editing, etc. in 2nd and go into CLE300 in 3rd.  That seems pretty reasonable.  IEW includes a dab of grammar.  I used Writing Tales around that age, and it includes some contextualized grammar.  It would really be enough for 2nd just to do a dab of something in context like that.  

[Meadowlark]

Well is this the current 7 yo?  And so he's 1st grade now?  Guess I didn't know if he's 1st gr or 2nd.  If he's 1st (like my ds7), then he'd be doing copywork with a focus on basic grammar, punctuation, editing, etc. in 2nd and go into CLE300 in 3rd.  That seems pretty reasonable.  IEW includes a dab of grammar.  I used Writing Tales around that age, and it includes some contextualized grammar.  It would really be enough for 2nd just to do a dab of something in context like that.  

 Sorry-my boys will be in 4th and 3rd next year. The 4th is the one strong in LA, although not necessarily grammar because he just hasn't had a whole lot other than the sporadic FLL that I did with them. Even so, he managed to score high on the ITBS test although I have no idea how. The soon to be 3rd grader is probably weaker on the writing/grammar side as I only did WWE 1 and some of 2 with him (and FLL) but that's about it.

 

I was hoping to put him into 300, but after the diagnostic test, he placed into the 200's. Not surprising since my big focus this year was getting him reading and not necessarily grammar. He did a ton of copywork (and WWE) this year though. I think CLE 200 would be okay for him unless it's just loaded with the dialect marks...I don't think he would dig that as we've done AAR 1-4 which is a total different way of teaching.

 

I do think I'm sold on doing CLE, I guess I just need to decide to put my oldest into 300 or 400, and my younger into 200 or 300-or just wait altogether with him. Hmmm...

[Storygirl]

We didn't use 200 -- after the 100 level, we needed a break and switched to something else. But in 100, as I remember it, every lesson included the diacritical markings. We found it was built into the program too much to skip, but I know some people cross things out. 200 might be different.

 

It's been a long time since I had my kids do the placement tests, so they might not specify which light unit to start with within a grade level.

 

The grammar in 400 does not just repeat the grammar at the 300 level at a higher level. There is actually new teaching at each level, and it all builds on the previous material.

[Storygirl]

Just to throw another idea out there -- when we wanted to take a break from CLE after the 100 level, we switched to Easy Grammar Daily Guided Teaching and Review for 2/3 grade, because it has just one page a day with a small amount of practice of a variety of grammar topics.