Writing curriculum after Barton 4

[Bookworm4]

I am trying to plan/research curriculum for next school year and while I obviously have no idea at this point if we will finish Barton 4 during next school year, I am trying to plan/budget as if we will so I will be prepared for when the time comes.  I understand the Susan recommends IEW after level 4.  Do most people use IEW that also use Barton?  Are there other writing curriculum that you have found success with for your student(s)?  I think I've seen EIW and Shurely as well as Bravewriter mentioned, but I wasn't sure how often those methods worked well for someone who seems to do well with Barton methods or need Barton methods.  At this point, DD is a reluctant writer and was borderline on school testing from being given a SLD - writing.  She can have good ideas to write, but actually writing them down currently is like pulling teeth and she appears defeated before she even starts (this was before we started Barton earlier this year - we haven't done much writing since and are still working on handwriting as letter formation is still not automatic in many cases).

[OneStepAtATime]

Try IEW, maybe coupled with the revamped Fix-It Grammar. They have a 100% refund if it isn't a good fit. It is very systematic and gives a framework that helps reluctant writers with dyslexia hang their hat on, so to speak.

Edited April 22, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[MyLittleBears]

Your dd sounds like the perfect candidate for IEW. It will give her the structure and scaffolding she needs for her ideas. We use it at coop and I am amazed at how much my dyslexic/dygraphic ds (as well as my typical learner) have progressed. The one thing I do for him, though, is scribe for him in order to eliminate his need to think about the mechanics of writing and spelling. He just verbalizes everything he wants me to write. 

[Julie of KY]

I'm now teaching my third dyslexic with Barton and I've used both IEW and Brave Writer. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum as they take very different approaches.

 

IEW feels more like Barton in that it is very systematic and structured. You have checklists and know exactly what is expected of you. For my household, this was more of a help for mom than my student.

 

My oldest (dyslexic, severely dysgraphic) used IEW for several years. He's very analytical and liked knowing exactly what was expected, but neither of us felt he was going anywhere with it. He started to do lots of basic freewrites with Brave Writer and then taking classes through them and we saw his writing take off. He still doesn't like to write at all, but Brave Writer has brought out HIS writing voice and taught him structure along the way.

 

My daughter is in Barton level 8 now. I started her with IEW about level 4 of Barton and she hated it. She is my word-loving, dysgraphic daughter and she felt totally stifled by IEW. She has blossomed with BW techniques and she takes her writing everywhere she goes. It's kind of fascinating since she wants me to scribe everything, but loves to write.

 

My youngest is at the end of Barton level 4. I will do a lot of copywork, narration, dictation, freewrites, etc with him. I don't plan on trying out IEW with him as I've become a lover of Brave Writer.

 

I do think IEW is a good program for many people and it gave me an invaluable start to teaching writing. "I" needed the structure of IEW and "I" learned a lot through the teacher and student videos about how to teach. I would have had a much harder time starting with child one in Brave Writer as I needed more structure.

 

Hope you find your path in teaching writing.

[geodob]

Something that you could have a look at, is 'Kidspiration'?

Which can be used to take her 'good ideas', and then create a 'mind map' for them.

That provides a map to use when writing.

 

I'll add a link to it, where you can download and try it out for free, for a month. 

So that you see whether it is helpful or not.

If you decide to try it?  Then it is important to start with the Tutorials that explain how to use it.

It has a one off cost of about $40 to buy.

http://www.inspiration.com/Kidspiration

[imagine.more]

We have started with the Writing Skills series by Diana Hanbury King (I think that's the correct author name). It's good, incremental, works for us. I'm thinking we might try IEW in a year or so if DD is still homeschooled then. She has extra needs as an ESL learner/hard-of-hearing learner so I felt like she needed the simplicity of the Writing Skills book first.

[PeterPan]

Just as a suggestion, I would break apart "writing" in your mind and think of each component and how to approach each component with her, rather than thinking one pat answer.  The dysgraphia is the ability to get her thoughts on paper.  She's going to need accommodation for that no matter what program she uses.  Organization and EF can be helped by IEW, sure, but it's not the ONLY way.  I agree with the others that IEW is unnecessarily formulaic for some kids.  Some kids do not NEED that type of instruction EVER to have beautiful writing.  And having dysgraphia does NOT mean you have a language weakness requiring that type of instruction.  They can be separate things in your mind.

 

My ds has extreme rigidity in his speech and language issues, so it might be that some of the approach of IEW would help him.  We'll see.  I don't think it *has* to be that way.  

 

IEW is the pat answer Barton knows can work for most people.  IEW is widely popular, because it's accessible, understandable.  It's definitely not the ONLY way.  I would slow down and think about the dysgraphia, the EF issues, the language issues, and then see what you're actually needing to solve.  

 

How old is this child?  Merely finishing Barton 4 doesn't tell you much.  She's spelling all the words?  Is there a gap between her reading and what she can write for the B4 lessons?  My ds has a HUGE gap, huge.  What can she do orally?  Can she narrate a simple story or tell you about a book she read?  Can she talk about an event she went to?  Oral composition is ALWAYS the foundation of written.  You cannot do too much oral composition work, word play, etc.  Depending on her age, you might like to use some simpler things like Listography, writing prompts, etc. to break the ice and get her used to using tech and accommodations.  Then, when you have that part working (how we get something on screen/paper), then go into a writing program.

[Bookworm4]

Thank you all for the feedback.  It has given me more to think about and evaluate as I think about what we may need in the future as well as considerations for now as well.  As for accommodations, I know I may need to scribe for a while until her handwriting or typing is able to keep up with her thoughts (which I am not expecting any time soon).  OhE, we aren't in level 4 yet, but likely will be during this coming school year and I read most people take 6-12 months to get through it.  I realize it may be 12 months, but since some it is less, I was just trying to plan out and budget with the less in mind from a financial standpoint, but know that it may be longer until we actually add a more formal writing curriculum.  She will be 9 this coming school year.

 

I think structure and organization are good for her and she seems to want that in other areas as well.  While she struggles with writing, she really wants to write her own thing lately, but often gives up due to her reading/spelling not at a level that she wants to write at.  She wants to write letters and in a diary lately, but doesn't write much in reality.  Her letter formation is not automatic most of the time - she still draws letters like art more often than not (it drives me crazy to watch her do that during the barton spelling lessons). 

 

I also forget about Writing Skills.  I remember that mentioned as a recommendation in the back of the Dyslexic Advantage now that you mention it.  I will check into that as well.

 

I hadn't heard of Kidspiration before.  I will check that out as well.

 

Also, to answer your question OhE, DD can narrate stories to me orally or answer questions orally when she has been listening to a story and is answering comprehension type of questions just fine.  She can also tell me about events she went to as well. It's putting that down on paper that is a problem.  However, once in a while I do suspect a word retrieval problem, but she does have very low processing speed so it's hard to know if it's the processing speed, dyslexia, or something else impacting word retrieval at times lately.

[PeterPan]

Since you're seeing that she's really comfortable with oral composition but struggling with getting it on paper, I would go forward with your oral composition and do even MORE of it but at the same time pursue some evals to get that dysgraphia diagnosis updated.  Well I say that, and my dd's handwriting didn't solidify for a long time.  She doesn't have SLD writing; for her it just took a long time.  Her writing is still a little funky.  

 

The more writing?  Since you're on a budget, I would be slow to recommend IEW.  There are some cute starter books that would be fine.  But to say go buy a whole SWI and sink tons of money into it, I'd be slow to do that, just me personally.  I REALLY like Writing Tales for that age.  LOVE Writing Tales for that age.  It's fun and more doable.  You could back up a bit further and do something like Jot It Down ($25 from Bravewriter).  Think about what you can bring into reach.  That's adorable that she's trying to write for herself!  That tells you it's inside there, and you want to UNLOCK that.  Don't get all hung up on what proper writing is or whether it's classical or has enough structure or was outlined or some stupidity.  For *now* just get her some way (using dictation software or you typing what she says or whatever) and let her get what's inside coming out!

 

You know what else is adorable for that age is the "How to Report on Books" series.  They have them by paired grades, and they're good little projects, worthwhile but not overwhelming.  Another thing she might LOVE that you could do with her are the Mrs. Renz book projects!  Don't miss these!!  Google to find them.  Mrs. Renz won Disney teacher of the year a few years ago, and she puts her book projects for her 4th grade class online.  You'll LOVE them!!  

 

Is she working on typing?  It sounds like it might be timely.  She could start typing that spelling.  The Eides have some research (iirc) about the kinesthetic movements of *typing* improving spelling retention.  The fingers learn the patterns.  Cool, eh?  So I would be working on typing every day, very diligently, to see what that can unlock for her.  This one is particularly good  Talking Fingers |

 

Hmm, what else?  That's so good that she wants to write for her personal stuff!  Try finding ways to unlock *shorter* writing.  You can scribe, let her type, let her use dictation, let her record audio that she later types...  Think SHORT.  Listography is cute and short.  Writing prompts can be short.  I do little writing prompts with my ds.  Things like 10 things I would do on Infinity Day, 10 types of dogs, etc. etc.  I do it *with* him using the dictation on his kindle.  Just because she's using tech doesn't mean it has to be *alone* kwim?  It can still be together.  Or it can be parallel, with both of you writing and trading to read!  Or consider going shorter, like the Anti-Coloring books (she's a little old), doodling books from Timberdoodle, that kind of thing.  My dd wrote a lot of recipe cards at that age.  You could make a family cookbook together or scrapbook together.  Little chunks of writing, lots of meaning...

 

Has she had an OT eval?  And has she had her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist?  There can be layers of problems, and you don't want to miss things.

Edited April 24, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Bookworm4]

Since you're seeing that she's really comfortable with oral composition but struggling with getting it on paper, I would go forward with your oral composition and do even MORE of it but at the same time pursue some evals to get that dysgraphia diagnosis updated.  Well I say that, and my dd's handwriting didn't solidify for a long time.  She doesn't have SLD writing; for her it just took a long time.  Her writing is still a little funky.  

 

The more writing?  Since you're on a budget, I would be slow to recommend IEW.  There are some cute starter books that would be fine.  But to say go buy a whole SWI and sink tons of money into it, I'd be slow to do that, just me personally.  I REALLY like Writing Tales for that age.  LOVE Writing Tales for that age.  It's fun and more doable.  You could back up a bit further and do something like Jot It Down ($25 from Bravewriter).  Think about what you can bring into reach.  That's adorable that she's trying to write for herself!  That tells you it's inside there, and you want to UNLOCK that.  Don't get all hung up on what proper writing is or whether it's classical or has enough structure or was outlined or some stupidity.  For *now* just get her some way (using dictation software or you typing what she says or whatever) and let her get what's inside coming out!

 

You know what else is adorable for that age is the "How to Report on Books" series.  They have them by paired grades, and they're good little projects, worthwhile but not overwhelming.  Another thing she might LOVE that you could do with her are the Mrs. Renz book projects!  Don't miss these!!  Google to find them.  Mrs. Renz won Disney teacher of the year a few years ago, and she puts her book projects for her 4th grade class online.  You'll LOVE them!!  

 

Is she working on typing?  It sounds like it might be timely.  She could start typing that spelling.  The Eides have some research (iirc) about the kinesthetic movements of *typing* improving spelling retention.  The fingers learn the patterns.  Cool, eh?  So I would be working on typing every day, very diligently, to see what that can unlock for her.  This one is particularly good  Talking Fingers |

 

Hmm, what else?  That's so good that she wants to write for her personal stuff!  Try finding ways to unlock *shorter* writing.  You can scribe, let her type, let her use dictation, let her record audio that she later types...  Think SHORT.  Listography is cute and short.  Writing prompts can be short.  I do little writing prompts with my ds.  Things like 10 things I would do on Infinity Day, 10 types of dogs, etc. etc.  I do it *with* him using the dictation on his kindle.  Just because she's using tech doesn't mean it has to be *alone* kwim?  It can still be together.  Or it can be parallel, with both of you writing and trading to read!  Or consider going shorter, like the Anti-Coloring books (she's a little old), doodling books from Timberdoodle, that kind of thing.  My dd wrote a lot of recipe cards at that age.  You could make a family cookbook together or scrapbook together.  Little chunks of writing, lots of meaning...

 

Has she had an OT eval?  And has she had her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist?  There can be layers of problems, and you don't want to miss things.

 

Thanks for the additional ideas.  As for a budget and IEW, if DD ends up needing IEW, I am willing to invest in it.  That said, we're still purchasing Barton levels and I am not selling any DD8 is done with until I know for sure my DD5 won't need it (she shows some signs and symptoms, but a little differently than DD8 did at age 5).  There is also a good chance that DD5 needs vision therapy which is only partially covered by insurance, thus trying to budget out what we may need and when.  I will check into the other options mentioned as well.  Thanks.

 

Is Talking Fingers as good as Touch-Type Read and Spell for dyslexics?  I've not used either just had the second one in my notes to purchase as I read it went well with Barton.  DD8 isn't typing yet, but it's on my list to start this summer - probably in June.

 

DD starts OT this week.  They did an eval related to handwriting, but not a full eval and have only granted 6 weeks of OT at the moment.  I'm hoping it will be a different therapist than who did the eval as she didn't seem to know as much and a local friend felt the same about her and her son has been in OT off and on for a number of years at the same place.  I brought up concerned about retained primitive reflexes to the OT and she didn't seem to know what I was talking about.  DD went through VT 2 years ago and her most recent check up with doing well enough that they wouldn't recommend more VT. 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks for the additional ideas.  As for a budget and IEW, if DD ends up needing IEW, I am willing to invest in it.  That said, we're still purchasing Barton levels and I am not selling any DD8 is done with until I know for sure my DD5 won't need it (she shows some signs and symptoms, but a little differently than DD8 did at age 5).  There is also a good chance that DD5 needs vision therapy which is only partially covered by insurance, thus trying to budget out what we may need and when.  I will check into the other options mentioned as well.  Thanks.

 

Is Talking Fingers as good as Touch-Type Read and Spell for dyslexics?  I've not used either just had the second one in my notes to purchase as I read it went well with Barton.  DD8 isn't typing yet, but it's on my list to start this summer - probably in June.

 

DD starts OT this week.  They did an eval related to handwriting, but not a full eval and have only granted 6 weeks of OT at the moment.  I'm hoping it will be a different therapist than who did the eval as she didn't seem to know as much and a local friend felt the same about her and her son has been in OT off and on for a number of years at the same place.  I brought up concerned about retained primitive reflexes to the OT and she didn't seem to know what I was talking about.  DD went through VT 2 years ago and her most recent check up with doing well enough that they wouldn't recommend more VT. 

 

I have not used Talking Fingers or I would try to do a compare and contrast.  I like Touch-Type-Read-Spell but there are many programs out there.

[PeterPan]

On the typing, just look at online samples and choose.  Some kids have a harder time than others, so I think it's more about the kid clicking with the program than whether the program was good/bad.

 

Ouch, on keeping your Barton levels!  It makes sense, but ouch ouch!  

 

I think you can find tests for the retained reflexes by googling.  They're not hard to do yourself.  

 

This is school OT or private?  If it's school, I think their hands are tied by funding, how long they're given, etc.  Ask for homework and what you can do at home! They'll probably (hopefully) be glad to give you ideas.  Sometimes there are simple things like doing wheelbarrows, etc.

[Bookworm4]

On the typing, just look at online samples and choose.  Some kids have a harder time than others, so I think it's more about the kid clicking with the program than whether the program was good/bad.

 

Ouch, on keeping your Barton levels!  It makes sense, but ouch ouch!  

 

I think you can find tests for the retained reflexes by googling.  They're not hard to do yourself.  

 

This is school OT or private?  If it's school, I think their hands are tied by funding, how long they're given, etc.  Ask for homework and what you can do at home! They'll probably (hopefully) be glad to give you ideas.  Sometimes there are simple things like doing wheelbarrows, etc.

 

Yeah...I'm hoping that DD5 may be ready for Barton 1 at some point this summer or by fall.  We will see...

 

The OT is private, but they rotate kids through it because there is a high demand in the area and not enough OTs that work with kids.  If she needs more after this rotation, then she goes back on the waiting list and they call us when there is an opening.

 

I have books and other resources for the reflexes.  Now that we are getting back into a routine (it was an unusual past 3.5 months), I need to add working on those to our daily schedule for both kids as they both have retained reflexes.  I keep meaning to learn more about Focus Moves to add to our routine as well.  I imagine the OT will give us ideas if I ask.  They gave ideas after the evaluation alone to help in the mean time.

 

[PeterPan]

Oh yes, if they have retained reflexes, you definitely want them to show you the exercises so you can do them at home!  Also try googling the reflexes, because you'll find youtube videos.  There's some disagreement, or shall we say diversity, about how to do the exercises.  RMT keeps their info to themselves, but their exercises have a good track record on resolving retained reflexes.  They're what our OT taught us.  We've had threads on RMT in the past, and I think you can find the poster on google image, etc.  Basically it's a set of about 17-20 exercises, and they're used in various combinations for the various reflexes.  In other words, if you do 'em all, eventually you'd work on all the reflexes, lol.  

 

Girls are a little ahead of boys, so maybe Barton 1 for a 5 yo?  I started Barton with my ds when he was 6.  I did some LIPS with him before his evals and then used LIPS + Barton after his evals.  Have you done the Barton pre-test with her?  Definitely a 5 yo could do LIPS without a problem.  For my ds the language of Barton was a problem.  He has problems there, so for him he was basically hyperlexic, not understanding anything he was reading.  I think that's the real issue with a young child and Barton, that you're pushing the envelope on their language readiness, even if they don't have that as a disability.  It's just really targeted at a bit older kids.  Timberdoodle sells a really charming series I Love Reading Phonics that has turned out to be good for my ds.  I'm not saying use them to teach her to read.  I'm just saying by the time we hit Barton 4 he had so much background and proficiency (and ability to guess and get there quickly because of a wicked high vocabulary) that he could read *something* but couldn't read comfortably the Barton stuff.  We've spent all school year working on his language disability, and now that that is stronger (now "average" per scores), he can read these books and understand them.  They're charming, age-appropriate, and controlled.  They would pair well with Barton.  If the Barton reading selections aren't clicking, bring in these books.  

 

Yes, an OT recommended Focus Moves to me.  It's easy to implement in the home and fun.  If you get it, pm me.  It's most useful for midline issues, reversals, tracking, overall calming.  It's not really going to do anything for retained reflexes.  If they have retained reflexes (STNR particularly), their eyes will jump at the midline and mess up their tracking for reading.  So you definitely need to make sure you're working on the reflexes as well.  There's a book on just the STNR.  Stopping ADHD

Edited April 26, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Bookworm4]

Oh yes, if they have retained reflexes, you definitely want them to show you the exercises so you can do them at home!  Also try googling the reflexes, because you'll find youtube videos.  There's some disagreement, or shall we say diversity, about how to do the exercises.  RMT keeps their info to themselves, but their exercises have a good track record on resolving retained reflexes.  They're what our OT taught us.  We've had threads on RMT in the past, and I think you can find the poster on google image, etc.  Basically it's a set of about 17-20 exercises, and they're used in various combinations for the various reflexes.  In other words, if you do 'em all, eventually you'd work on all the reflexes, lol.  

 

Girls are a little ahead of boys, so maybe Barton 1 for a 5 yo?  I started Barton with my ds when he was 6.  I did some LIPS with him before his evals and then used LIPS + Barton after his evals.  Have you done the Barton pre-test with her?  Definitely a 5 yo could do LIPS without a problem.  For my ds the language of Barton was a problem.  He has problems there, so for him he was basically hyperlexic, not understanding anything he was reading.  I think that's the real issue with a young child and Barton, that you're pushing the envelope on their language readiness, even if they don't have that as a disability.  It's just really targeted at a bit older kids.  Timberdoodle sells a really charming series I Love Reading Phonics that has turned out to be good for my ds.  I'm not saying use them to teach her to read.  I'm just saying by the time we hit Barton 4 he had so much background and proficiency (and ability to guess and get there quickly because of a wicked high vocabulary) that he could read *something* but couldn't read comfortably the Barton stuff.  We've spent all school year working on his language disability, and now that that is stronger (now "average" per scores), he can read these books and understand them.  They're charming, age-appropriate, and controlled.  They would pair well with Barton.  If the Barton reading selections aren't clicking, bring in these books.  

 

Yes, an OT recommended Focus Moves to me.  It's easy to implement in the home and fun.  If you get it, pm me.  It's most useful for midline issues, reversals, tracking, overall calming.  It's not really going to do anything for retained reflexes.  If they have retained reflexes (STNR particularly), their eyes will jump at the midline and mess up their tracking for reading.  So you definitely need to make sure you're working on the reflexes as well.  There's a book on just the STNR.  Stopping ADHD

 

There is someone a few hours from me that teaches RMT.  I took an online class from her a couple years ago, but didn't follow through at applying what I'd learned.  I'll see what the OT does, but I may consider meeting with the RMT expert once to see the exercises for RMT and reflex integration in person to make sure I'm doing it right.  Or I'll just give it a go on my own.  I should put this on our checklist of school work to do each day so I have a constant reminder.

 

I PM'd you about Focus Moves.  I watched the videos online a few months ago and my 8 year old thought it looked fun and wanted to do it at home.  I have the book, but that's it so far. 

 

Thanks for the reminder about Stopping ADHD as well.  I bought that book last fall because of someone talking about it on this forum.  I had put it on the shelf and forgotten about it while trying to sort through the dyslexia, etc. and related testing.  I will have to put it back on my to do list.  I'm pretty sure that DD has a retained STNR and ATNR.  When we had our check up at the vision therapy center, he noted that DD's eyes sort of jumped slightly at the midline, but not enough that he thought he should recommend more VT.

 

As for Barton with my 5 yr old, 2-3 months ago I did the pretest with her.  I didn't get all the way through C though.  She didn't pass A & B (she couldn't repeat most sentences word for word) and didn't quite get the concept of pulling down tiles for each word or each sound.  She could repeat the sounds back okay though.  I picked up the phonemic awareness for classrooms book to use with her.  I still have LOE Foundations A that has a lot of phonemic awareness in it that I may go through with her and see how she does to start.  I still have AAR Pre that I can take her through (she loves ziggy and animal stories, but I don't know that she would get the concept of filling in a rhyming word for an incorrect word yet that I remember doing in that curriculum).  She is starting to get the concept of rhyming so maybe it will be good for her, but I don't know yet.  I wasn't going to make her "officially" start school until the fall though and figure that DD8 and I will be in a better routine with Barton by then as well.  Meanwhile, I throw in phonemic awareness activities randomly throughout the week for her.

 

Thanks for the tips of how you've made Barton work and the extra materials that have helped.  I will save this in case I need that info in the future.

 

[PeterPan]

I would suggest you call Barton and talk through the results of the pretest.  In fact, since it has been several months, I would do it again, see how she does, then call. 

 

What you're going through (like AAR pre but can't get it to quite work, etc.) is what we went through, and then at newly 6 he got the dyslexia diagnosis.

Edited April 26, 2016 by OhElizabeth