Organization: My 9th/11th gr dtrs are fighting me tooth-and-nail

[74Heaven]

about getting organized.

 

I bought them both organizers, spent 20-30min explaining how to use them. Spent 10-20min 3-4X since then explaining how to use them. Both are pretty straightforward - my main goal is that they use them everyday. I tell them to them anywhere where we will be doing school.) They don't even open them up unless I tell them to.... I have told to either go get them or "open them up" and "write this down" 3-4x a day(!) for the past 2-3 weeks.

 

They almost *never* have them with them and if they write anything down it is incomplete and of little use. (Besides illegible lol)

 

For instance when they have a test the next day, they don't write it down - and if they even note it (or if I tell them, "write that down", they write "test"); I tell them to write something more like:

Ch 2 test tomorrow ____ (a place for a checkmark)

Study vocab, homework ____

Review chapter summary, daily notes ____

 

They really whine, argue (even cry and say "I don't need to do that" (when in fact they do *need* to do that - they are drowning in unfinished and not-ready-on-time assignments - and they have no interest in writing down all the things they need to do. They are not keeping track of them in any way - more of a "dartboard guess" at night. (which ends up being insufficient)

 

OTOH, they are hopelessly confused and forgetting assignments *not* having basic things done on the day of classtime when it is due. For most of their 6 classes, they are supposed to be doing about 3 sep things every night (i.e. homework exercises, reading, a "project that should be ongoing", sometimes corrections, etc.

 

I am trying to help them transition to being independent students.

 

I'm frustrated. Why will they not do this simple, organizational task?

 

I want to emphasize that they do *not* have any type of system that is working for them.

 

In past years, I am sure they were coddled too much by me. What I would do is say, Ok, tonight you need to "write and memorize 5 vocab flashcards, do exercises 3-6, and pre-read pages 48-52. Oh and correct the answers you missed in yesterday's quiz." This year most of their classes are on video or at a weekly co op.

 

Personally, It think it is a good thing for a teacher to give a "homework" recap at the end of the class but apparently in the real world that doesn't happen! (And my girls are not writing it down when it does.)

 

So, help me please - is this just a matter of pressing on and acquiring this habit? (And btw, i don't care if their "daily entry" is like the one I gave above, I do something specifically listing the tasks. (i.e. if there is a page of questions, and a sep. assignment like vocab - I think both need to be listed - not just a blank space or "get ready for tomorrow".

 

Lisaj, schooling 5

[Brenda in MA]

I'd suggest setting some time aside each weekend to sit down with them and help them fill out their planner for the coming week. They can not only note assignments, tests, etc, but they can also record that they should be studying for tests. I let my son fill in what he thinks he needs to do, then I review it and make sure he adds anything that is missing.

 

I also make sure he is aware of any appointments or outside commitments in the coming week so he can plan his work around those things like dentist appointments.

 

If you've got a child that isn't naturally organized (like my oldest), I've found that it takes lots of reminders over years and years for them to get the idea.

 

Best wishes,

Brenda

[Oakblossoms]

I attended the University up until last year. My professors/TA gave us a syllabus with assignments listed and subjects for the day. It was very helpful.

 

But, I still had to keep a schedule (I had no choice with three kids etc. etc.).

 

I would say to make an appointment with them on Sunday night and help them fill everything out. You might want to use different color pens. Another option is they might rather do it on the computer. I have iCal and each person can have their own color. Just print out each day and you can write in any new information.

[Janice in NJ]

I hate this part of my job. :001_smile: There, I said it!

I STRONGLY dislike being the police, but it still ends up being my job.

 

So I keep doing it.

 

I can only expect what I inspect.

So I inspect. Constantly.

I see fruit. They start to own things.

But then they fail to own other things. What? Huh? I THOUGHT THAT WE WERE PAST THIS!!!!!!

 

So I keep modeling responsibility. And I keep checking up with them.

 

The biggest thing that has work for me?

Show them what I want them to do - ie. I do it. They watch.

Then I watch them do it.

Then they do it on their own - and I CHECK THEIR WORK EVERY DAY!

Yup. EVERY SINGLE SINGLE SINGLE DAY.

And they fail to actually do everything that we agreed that they would do for days and days and days. I repeat and repeat and repeat. SHEESH! Honestly? This is when I become the screaming crazy lady. I admit it. I boil over. No momma of the year award here.

 

Oh well. I'm learning. Actually? I try to remember that the police don't hop up and down. They just hand out tickets. I hop because I care too much; In fact, I'm doing ALL of the caring. Their end of the caring - ZIPPO! Momma - ALL of it. Kids - NONE. Big problem. BIG problem. Bad, bad parenting on my part. Oh well - I'm learning. I'll get there.

 

The secret is to just calmly hand out tickets. "Bummer for you. You're going to have to do this over again after dinner because you didn't do it correctly - as WE agreed. Remember?"

 

So I check ...until they are show consistency. Then I check less frequently. But I still have to remember to check. Because if NO one is checking, the kids lose interest in doing the work. And who can blame them. Even I wouldn't work if NO ONE ever saw my work. That's asking too much. Everyone wants their work to count for something.

 

But the consistent checking? There is just so much of that. No matter WHAT curriculum I choose. I keep trying to get out of that job, but I'm not sure that I'm supposed to ever get away from that completely. Honestly? I REALLY don't know where I got that notion from that a high school student can work in every subject (especially the ones that they DETEST) without regular oversight. WHERE did that notion come from? Truly - my oldest works VERY independently on the subjects that he loves. But he stumbles on the subjects that he loathes. Without oversight, he would be cutting corners.

 

I can't blame him. The bottom/back of my closet is a MESS! A heaped and horribly cluttered mess! If I knew that someone was going to check it, I might care. But because no one is checking, I continue to allow it to get worse and worse. ;)

 

Ah well.

Isn't life grand?

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[Jenn in CA]

Amen, sistah!

 

Also, I try to make the "checking" more work for them and less for me; for ex., "Bring me the planner when you are ready for free time, and I'll go over it with you; if I catch you moving on to free time before you brought the planner you are in Big Trouble."

 

Big Trouble meaning loss of some privilege usually.

[Laurie4b]

No help, just commiseration!

[Nan in Mass]

All I can say is that after 2 years of gently insisting, I've finally got mine using a planner. Not the way I want him too, not a planner that will work for college, not ever marking anything beyond tonight's work, often not remembering to look at it (or not having it with him) when he goes to do his work, and only occasionally remembering to check things off, but using it. Now I'm working on the checking off. We're getting there. He's 14, so he has a while yet before it becomes a matter of surviving or not surviving. Baby steps, I guess. I could make a bigger deal out of it, but I have other things I'm more worried about, so I just keep reminding. We're getting there. I just want you to know that a few days might not do it. I think this is a bigger adjustment than it looks like it is. Maybe it is a "toaster". When my sister was in college, the boys in her bunch of friends all made a pact never to get a toaster; it was the epitome of all the boringest and worst things about being grown up.

-Nan

[74Heaven]

I hate this part of my job. :001_smile: There, I said it!

I STRONGLY dislike being the police, but it still ends up being my job.

 

So I keep doing it.

 

I can only expect what I inspect.

So I inspect. Constantly.

I see fruit. They start to own things.

But then they fail to own other things. What? Huh? I THOUGHT THAT WE WERE PAST THIS!!!!!!

 

So I keep modeling responsibility. And I keep checking up with them.

 

The biggest thing that has work for me?

Show them what I want them to do - ie. I do it. They watch.

Then I watch them do it.

Then they do it on their own - and I CHECK THEIR WORK EVERY DAY!

Yup. EVERY SINGLE SINGLE SINGLE DAY.

And they fail to actually do everything that we agreed that they would do for days and days and days. I repeat and repeat and repeat. SHEESH! Honestly? This is when I become the screaming crazy lady. I admit it. I boil over. No momma of the year award here.

 

It certainly feel nice to hear there are others in the same boat - and that oftentimes, we are the ones doing most of the rowing as well as being the coxswain. And I appreciate hte reminders to press on, keep calm and keep assisting.

 

Thanks, I needed the words of wisdom and those who commiserated with me!

Lisaj, mom to 5 who has one organized-5yo (yes, the 5yo!)

[Kris]

:lurk5:

[Natalija]

Thanks, Janice! You made me giggle! I love your post! It speaks to me and I am so glad to know I am not alone!!! :iagree:

 

:-) Natalija

[Moni]

I agree with Janice and the University student

University up until last year. My professors/TA gave us a syllabus with assignments listed and subjects for the day.

 

I do this. I still type up the syllabus, well, it's a list of daily assignments with a blank line ____ for a checkmark.

 

I suppose I could have the student do it, but I'm not that interested in having the student task that yet.

 

I actually two lines, one for "student completed" it and one for "mom is satisfied" with the line item.

 

If I wanted my student to write up his own, I would have him create a reproducible master probably and then just work from it.

 

Math

____ ____ Do Lesson # ___

____ ____ Mom check the answers

____ ____ Do your corrections

____ ____ Do your math flascards

 

Vocab

____ ____ Vocab Daily Cards

____ ____ Vocab weekly Cards on Monday

____ ____ exercise # ____

 

 

So far I am not a big fan of blank planners.

We tend to do things that follow the same routine (science, history, comp, etc) that ti's easier to fill in the blank on a pre-typed Master.

 

Maybe you can have a meeting where this is done on Friday for next week, or Sunday for the week or?

 

Of if it's student pace, then I would just have subject lists and they would just do the next thing.

 

I am probably missing your point!

Even in college we had syllabus by week at most, or by Tu/Th or M/W/F all typed out and listed there for us

[Moni]

"Bring me the planner when you are ready for free time, and I'll go over it with you;.

 

This is what I've always done.

 

If they want to X, I say, Let me see your sheet.

Which could be Let me see your planner.

 

The sheet/planner is the Ticket to freedom, the ticket that grants the admission to Free Time

 

:lurk5:

[Guest fizzfever]

We have started to use HST+. I first got it so I could keep track of things for transcripts but it is helping both student and teacher to remain accountable. Me for checking her stuff, her so she knows what to do, read, study. I give assignments for the week and its up to her to know when to do them. We are still on the front end of this, but it is working.

Angela

Tog y2r

Teaching Textbook

Apologia

[lwilliams1922]

I hate this part of my job. :001_smile: There, I said it!

I STRONGLY dislike being the police, but it still ends up being my job.

 

So I keep doing it.

 

I can only expect what I inspect.

So I inspect. Constantly.

I see fruit. They start to own things.

But then they fail to own other things. What? Huh? I THOUGHT THAT WE WERE PAST THIS!!!!!!

 

So I keep modeling responsibility. And I keep checking up with them.

 

The biggest thing that has work for me?

Show them what I want them to do - ie. I do it. They watch.

Then I watch them do it.

Then they do it on their own - and I CHECK THEIR WORK EVERY DAY!

Yup. EVERY SINGLE SINGLE SINGLE DAY.

And they fail to actually do everything that we agreed that they would do for days and days and days. I repeat and repeat and repeat. SHEESH! Honestly? This is when I become the screaming crazy lady. I admit it. I boil over. No momma of the year award here.

 

Oh well. I'm learning. Actually? I try to remember that the police don't hop up and down. They just hand out tickets. I hop because I care too much; In fact, I'm doing ALL of the caring. Their end of the caring - ZIPPO! Momma - ALL of it. Kids - NONE. Big problem. BIG problem. Bad, bad parenting on my part. Oh well - I'm learning. I'll get there.

 

The secret is to just calmly hand out tickets. "Bummer for you. You're going to have to do this over again after dinner because you didn't do it correctly - as WE agreed. Remember?"

 

So I check ...until they are show consistency. Then I check less frequently. But I still have to remember to check. Because if NO one is checking, the kids lose interest in doing the work. And who can blame them. Even I wouldn't work if NO ONE ever saw my work. That's asking too much. Everyone wants their work to count for something.

 

But the consistent checking? There is just so much of that. No matter WHAT curriculum I choose. I keep trying to get out of that job, but I'm not sure that I'm supposed to ever get away from that completely. Honestly? I REALLY don't know where I got that notion from that a high school student can work in every subject (especially the ones that they DETEST) without regular oversight. WHERE did that notion come from? Truly - my oldest works VERY independently on the subjects that he loves. But he stumbles on the subjects that he loathes. Without oversight, he would be cutting corners.

 

I can't blame him. The bottom/back of my closet is a MESS! A heaped and horribly cluttered mess! If I knew that someone was going to check it, I might care. But because no one is checking, I continue to allow it to get worse and worse. ;)

 

Ah well.

Isn't life grand?

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

 

very well said (wish I could rep ya)

 

Right now I find that I have to keep a planner for dd/12 ( as well as DH and myself). They must think I am a nut case. Everytime something comes up I'm like 'WAIT!, Let me grab my pen so I can write it down'

 

I KNOW I have organization issues. That's why I write things down. It's overwhelming that I have to track DH and DD as well.

 

I am planning to transfer this task to DD but i keep finding that if I don't do it, she wont do it and things wont get done.

 

I feel your pain.

[lwilliams1922]

We have started to use HST+. I first got it so I could keep track of things for transcripts but it is helping both student and teacher to remain accountable. Me for checking her stuff, her so she knows what to do, read, study. I give assignments for the week and its up to her to know when to do them. We are still on the front end of this, but it is working.

Angela

Tog y2r

Teaching Textbook

Apologia

 

 

what is HST+??

Is there a link to more info?

[Kris]

what is HST+??

Is there a link to more info?

 

I'm guessing Homeschool Tracker Plus. I use it too, and swear by it. It keeps *me* organized, anyway. :D

[WTMCassandra]

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

I'm recalling with amazement that my parents dumped me into high school, sink or swim, with NO help in this area whatsoever.

 

From a tiny Christian school in NJ for grades K-8 where I never had homework (two grades in a room so you did your homework when the teacher went to the other class), I moved to VA (very different culture) to a large Christian school where I had to wear dresses every day, change classes, have a locker, go among different buildings, and keep track of everything all by myself.

 

And they expected me to get all As. All the time. Except they grudgingly accepted Bs in math. I sucked bigtime at math and cried buckets over Algebra--I hung onto a B- with a death grip. They expected just about perfection even though I couldn't understand what these people with southern accents said half the time. Even though I didn't know a soul in that place.

 

Wow. No wonder I remember my high-school years as stressful. I guess God was gracious in that I really wanted to be a good student and that I tended to be highly organized. I developed my own systems and kept track of everything. I found my own "place" with the not-popular-but-respected-decent-students crowd. I graduated 5th in my class, and at least three of the people ahead of me were big-time geniuses (I am NOT).

 

Thanks for listening. This was kind of cathartic for me.

 

So, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but your girls don't know how good they have it--a mom who cares enough to teach them this stuff and make them learn it. You go, girl! Keep on keepin' on. It's worth it.

[Nan in Mass]

When my mother bought me my notebooks for high school, she bought me an assignment book as well. She picked out a nice one with cats on it that she thought I'd like. When she gave it to me, she just said that I'd need it to keep track of things for high school. That's it. And I used it right away, with no problems.

 

I think if I hadn't done assignment books with my sons, they would have been fine. My older one was given one at orientation for CC and I think at that point, if he hadn't used one before, he probably would have begun. It isn't all that complicated LOL. Mine just haven't seen the need before - their assignments aren't so many or so complicated that they don't think they can remember them. And most of the time they can. They make mistakes just often enough that I think they need one and they think they don't. And as I said earlier, it is a toaster, a symbol of the long hard academic slog to come.

 

-Nan

[Mommyfaithe]

I hate this part of my job. :001_smile: There, I said it!

I STRONGLY dislike being the police, but it still ends up being my job.

 

So I keep doing it.

 

I can only expect what I inspect.

So I inspect. Constantly.

I see fruit. They start to own things.

But then they fail to own other things. What? Huh? I THOUGHT THAT WE WERE PAST THIS!!!!!!

 

So I keep modeling responsibility. And I keep checking up with them.

 

The biggest thing that has work for me?

Show them what I want them to do - ie. I do it. They watch.

Then I watch them do it.

Then they do it on their own - and I CHECK THEIR WORK EVERY DAY!

Yup. EVERY SINGLE SINGLE SINGLE DAY.

And they fail to actually do everything that we agreed that they would do for days and days and days. I repeat and repeat and repeat. SHEESH! Honestly? This is when I become the screaming crazy lady. I admit it. I boil over. No momma of the year award here.

 

Oh well. I'm learning. Actually? I try to remember that the police don't hop up and down. They just hand out tickets. I hop because I care too much; In fact, I'm doing ALL of the caring. Their end of the caring - ZIPPO! Momma - ALL of it. Kids - NONE. Big problem. BIG problem. Bad, bad parenting on my part. Oh well - I'm learning. I'll get there.

 

The secret is to just calmly hand out tickets. "Bummer for you. You're going to have to do this over again after dinner because you didn't do it correctly - as WE agreed. Remember?"

 

So I check ...until they are show consistency. Then I check less frequently. But I still have to remember to check. Because if NO one is checking, the kids lose interest in doing the work. And who can blame them. Even I wouldn't work if NO ONE ever saw my work. That's asking too much. Everyone wants their work to count for something.

 

But the consistent checking? There is just so much of that. No matter WHAT curriculum I choose. I keep trying to get out of that job, but I'm not sure that I'm supposed to ever get away from that completely. Honestly? I REALLY don't know where I got that notion from that a high school student can work in every subject (especially the ones that they DETEST) without regular oversight. WHERE did that notion come from? Truly - my oldest works VERY independently on the subjects that he loves. But he stumbles on the subjects that he loathes. Without oversight, he would be cutting corners.

 

I can't blame him. The bottom/back of my closet is a MESS! A heaped and horribly cluttered mess! If I knew that someone was going to check it, I might care. But because no one is checking, I continue to allow it to get worse and worse. ;)

 

Ah well.

Isn't life grand?

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I wish I could rep you on this one. YOU ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOOO RIGHT!!!

 

Can you tell I learned this so the hard way. Thank God my oldest dd was somewhat self motivated...and really did not need much math or science (sheesh) for her degree. OY VEY!!!! Why would I even dream for a second that she could be totally independent in High School?? Because it is a nasty rumour, infiltrated by those who would like to see our kids fail miserably?? Or maybe the rumour began with wishful thinking Just plain stupidity on my part?? I don't know....but I have come to the conclusion that a job unchecked is a job undone...especially with teens.

 

Another crazy police momma,

Faithe

[WTMCassandra]

It's funny how different people are and how times change.

 

I don't know what I would have done had I not had access to sample pocket calendars from my parents' business. I used them for years for assignments. Also, I don't remember seeing any books about "how to study" in those days and now there are tons of them. No one talked about "study skills."

 

And I'm not that old . . . I'm only 40.

[lwilliams1922]

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I have come to the conclusion that a job unchecked is a job undone...

 

 

hmmm...

I need to write this one on my board

(as well as my journal, blog, dash board, fridge,front door, post it notes,PDA, bathroom mirror, back of my hand,...)

[lllll]

It almost sounds like they're overwhelmed and frustrated vs being irresponsible???

 

Janice described how we've basically gone about getting our dc to work independently. Model the thing you want done, be consistent, and follow up constantly. In a very calm, matter-of-fact way. Over time, ease up slightly and watch and see how they handle the tiny bits of 'freedom' to know whether to proceed to the next bit of freedom. If they fall apart, back up and be patient. They'll get there. (Of course, it never goes as smoothly in real life as it looks in print. :))

 

 

And btw, IMO, this is not necessarily related to a child's age. I think as parents we tend to think 'OK, this kid is old enough to be doing XYZ on his own, now. Why isn't he!?!' I've found it's more a matter of the maturity level of the individual child vs the age. Ex. Our 15yod has been working fairly independently for a couple of years now, but our ds's were a totally different story at the same age and even later.

 

 

(Also, it's a really, really bad idea to fall into the trap of comparing one's own dc with other dc - esp. the dc on these boards.)

 

Another thing I found that nudged them on to work more independently was to constantly ask/suggest/tell them that if, at any point, they thought of a better/faster way to go about doing what needed to be done, to let me know and we'd incorporate their ideas into the thing (or even overhaul the entire thing if that's what they wanted to do!). For example, I roughly outlined all the chores and sat down with all dc a few years ago to turn everything over to them. Once they got over the shock of the sheer volume of it (which seems to be the stage your dd's may be at), they took my crude lists and worked together to come up with a system for themselves (which is where you want your dd's to end up).

 

In fact, you could even suggest that they work together to come up with some kind of a system to get what needs to be done, done, emphasizing that you know it won't be perfect, but that's OK ... and they could use your system for ideas to get them started - if they wanted to. They may not take you up on it right away, but you will have planted the idea. Let it grow. Appeal to their creative sides to help them get a little excited about it. Let them know the sky's the limit, as far as supplies, ideas, whatever. Constantly ask them how they would do this or that thing, no matter how small. Maybe they could even do all of it on the computer, if that will get them motivated. They just have to find the way to get the things done. And, of course, they will have to bring it to you and explain the whole thing to you. (Make suggestions sparingly and let them work out the bugs on their own, as much as possible. Whatever you do, don't come across as criticizing, at this point.)

 

In the back of my mind, I was always trying to figure out how I could lighten my load and increase their load.

 

 

Anyway, HTH.

Edited September 27, 2008 by ksva

[lllll]

In past years, I am sure they were coddled too much by me. What I would do is say, Ok, tonight you need to "write and memorize 5 vocab flashcards, do exercises 3-6, and pre-read pages 48-52. Oh and correct the answers you missed in yesterday's quiz."

 

 

Back at the library and heading home.

 

Just wanted to add that I wouldn't consider the above coddling. To me, it's just plain ole teaching. Which means that you did your job and they 'know' how to do this stuff on some level, hidden somewhere in their brains. Thus, your job, IMHO, is to coax it out of them such that they, first of all, realize it's there; and, second of all, personalize it and start using it. You've just reached the next 'stage', so to speak. Does that make sense? I hope so, because I won't be near the net for a while.

 

If I totally missed it, though, of course you know to ignore everything I said.