R&S English vs CLE; LoE essentials vs SSS; anyone ever heard of Spellwell??

[sunshineslp]

wow i am on FIRE today with questions!  thank you for taking the time:) 

 

so, Rod and Staff vs CLE for LA:  this would be for 2nd grade.  which is easier to accomplish with a larger family?  can R&S be done independently at all, after lesson is taught?  maybe letting them write in the textbook?  DS has an aversion to writing so I can see that would be the only problem with R&S.  CLE looks nicer due to the workbook format, but i see it jumps around a bit AND i wouldn't use the handwriting or spelling part of it. 

 

and, LoE essentials for spelling or spelling by sound and structure:  which do you think is the stronger program?  we have used LoE foundations and love it.  i like teaching the spelling rules.  does SSS do this?  I am not sure if essentials lends itself to being independent at all...

 

Lastly (i should have made three different posts but i hate clogging up the forum...) anyone ever heard of Spellwell?  it's actually made by the same company that makes Explode the Code.  any opinions on it or how it might compare to Loe or SSS? 

 

THanks:)

Edited November 30, 2015 by sunshineslp

[Ellie]

wow i am on FIRE today with questions!  thank you for taking the time:) 

 

so, Rod and Staff vs CLE for LA:  this would be for 2nd grade.  which is easier to accomplish with a larger family?  can R&S be done independently at all, after lesson is taught?  maybe letting them write in the textbook?  DS has an aversion to writing so I can see that would be the only problem with R&S.  CLE looks nicer due to the workbook format, but i see it jumps around a bit AND i wouldn't use the handwriting or spelling part of it. 

 

and, LoE essentials for spelling or spelling by sound and structure:  which do you think is the stronger program?  we have used LoE foundations and love it.  i like teaching the spelling rules.  does SSS do this?  I am not sure if essentials lends itself to being independent at all...

 

Lastly (i should have made three different posts but i hate clogging up the forum...) anyone ever heard of Spellwell?  it's actually made by the same company that makes Explode the Code.  any opinions on it or how it might compare to Loe or SSS? 

 

THanks:)

 

Yes, R&S's English can be done independently. I wouldn't allow the dc to write in the book, because there wouldn't be room to write some of the answers. There's not nearly as much writing as you might think, certainly no more than CLE. It's just on a piece of paper instead of in a workbook. Also, writing on a piece of paper which is lying on a flat surface is much more conducive to being able to use good penmanship. You'll want to teach your dc to hold his book open with his left hand, in front and slightly to the left of his paper, and write with his other hand (or the opposite if he's a lefty).

 

I wouldn't bother with any formal spelling at this age. I would wait until your dc is 9 and can do the fourth grade book.

 

P.S. Never worry about "clogging up the forum." :hat:

Edited November 30, 2015 by Ellie

[Tiramisu]

I just saw your other post about four kids and getting up at 6 am but I didn't read all the responses. Your kids are all very young and I think you may be feeling frustration by trying to do too much.

 

Having done R&S 2, I would never do it again. It was a complete waste of time. Start R&S at the third grade level at the earliest. Grade four would be a fine start, too. If you have a child with an aversion to writing, I'd be very careful with putting unnecessary work on them, which IMO, R&S 2 would be. Instead, I'd work on handwriting and use WWS; or handwriting with your own oral narration and copywork.

 

If you really want to do a second grade language arts program, one of my dd's really enjoyed the ABeka second grade language arts seatwork book. I only used it once with one child, but I've kept it for the memories. It gave her some nice opportunities for writing her own sentences without being overwhelming in how much it required the kids to write, and the results were very cute. What I like about ABeka Language at this level is that it's a very practical introduction to language; it's not grammar intensive, as much as a catch-all of concepts that will gently help develop reading and writing. Some might call it busy work but we liked it here. But even I used it for only one child. 

 

For second grade, I'd either do a phonics program OR a spelling program, not both. If phonics were mastered by that point, I'd move to spelling. If not, I'd keep going with phonics. By second grade, my kids were good readers, they had finished the ETC books, and they had moved on to spelling. They would have been bored by more phonics, but it would not have hurt them in the long run if they had continued on with it and delayed spelling. Either way works.

[sunshineslp]

I just saw your other post about four kids and getting up at 6 am but I didn't read all the responses. Your kids are all very young and I think you may be feeling frustration by trying to do too much.

 

Having done R&S 2, I would never do it again. It was a complete waste of time. Start R&S at the third grade level at the earliest. Grade four would be a fine start, too. If you have a child with an aversion to writing, I'd be very careful with putting unnecessary work on them, which IMO, R&S 2 would be. Instead, I'd work on handwriting and use WWS; or handwriting with your own oral narration and copywork.

 

If you really want to do a second grade language arts program, one of my dd's really enjoyed the ABeka second grade language arts seatwork book. I only used it once with one child, but I've kept it for the memories. It gave her some nice opportunities for writing her own sentences without being overwhelming in how much it required the kids to write, and the results were very cute. What I like about ABeka Language at this level is that it's a very practical introduction to language; it's not grammar intensive, as much as a catch-all of concepts that will gently help develop reading and writing. Some might call it busy work but we liked it here. But even I used it for only one child. 

 

For second grade, I'd either do a phonics program OR a spelling program, not both. If phonics were mastered by that point, I'd move to spelling. If not, I'd keep going with phonics. By second grade, my kids were good readers, they had finished the ETC books, and they had moved on to spelling. They would have been bored by more phonics, but it would not have hurt them in the long run if they had continued on with it and delayed spelling. Either way works.

 

thank you so much!  I think you hit the nail on the head:  I am trying to do too much.  I feel it too, i just haven't been able to see clearly enough to know what to change.  Right now they are doing logic of english, and my 2nd grader pretty much has phonics down, although LoE does lots of advanced phonograms that the program continues on in, with their Essentials program, so I think I will do that since it is a spelling program too.  You are right about R&S for 2nd.  I have been thinking that it was too much.  Actually, I was considering doing Easy Grammar in 3rd grade and starting Hake in 4th, since it is fairly independent and I really love the incremental approach.  I do, however, also like Abeka for LA too, I can see how it would be too much seatwork, but maybe I can cut it down? 

[Tiramisu]

thank you so much!  I think you hit the nail on the head:  I am trying to do too much.  I feel it too, i just haven't been able to see clearly enough to know what to change.  Right now they are doing logic of english, and my 2nd grader pretty much has phonics down, although LoE does lots of advanced phonograms that the program continues on in, with their Essentials program, so I think I will do that since it is a spelling program too.  You are right about R&S for 2nd.  I have been thinking that it was too much.  Actually, I was considering doing Easy Grammar in 3rd grade and starting Hake in 4th, since it is fairly independent and I really love the incremental approach.  I do, however, also like Abeka for LA too, I can see how it would be too much seatwork, but maybe I can cut it down? 

 

I'm using Easy Grammar now and liking it. I've used it at different times with three kids. I think there is something useful about that prepositional phrase approach even if you do it for a year or two. I am using it with my 8th grader who was in ps and had little knowledge of grammar and my 4th grader for this year and maybe next.

 

I liked ABeka in the early grades for its practical approach that emphasized things like punctuation rather than parts of speech. I think I did it with one dd for second, third, and fourth grade. And like I said, though I liked it, I did not repeat it with my younger kids. The kid who used ABeka never got stressed over a long list of sentences to correct but my younger two would have. I wouldn't start it in the first place if you know you're going to have to worry about cutting it down.

 

Now if you're looking at third grade LA for a kid who will move onto Hake, I really like Evan Moor Daily Langage Review. It's a supplement but at third grade IMO it's enough if you are doing copywork. It has only about five questions a day of really practical stuff, like punctuating and correcting sentences and other LA odds and ends. When I used R & S last year with my youngest, she had NO retention from it, but her retention from Evan Moor Daily Language Review was amazing.

 

Do you do memory work? If so, I would incorporate memorizing the definitions of the parts of speech next year and you'll have your bases covered. Do it very slowly and incrementally, like a part of speech every few weeks. It's something all the kids could do together. When my kids were younger, they really enjoyed that together time in the morning. I would read and have them orally narrate a Bible story and move on to a few minutes of memory work. They have good memories of that.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Tiramisu

[sunshineslp]

Great ideas! Thanks[emoji3] I don't currently do memory work for LA, that sounds similar to FLL? Which I had initially considered. I will look into the Evan Moor, thank you for your helpfulness!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Targhee]

wow i am on FIRE today with questions! thank you for taking the time:)

 

so, Rod and Staff vs CLE for LA: this would be for 2nd grade. which is easier to accomplish with a larger family? can R&S be done independently at all, after lesson is taught? maybe letting them write in the textbook? DS has an aversion to writing so I can see that would be the only problem with R&S. CLE looks nicer due to the workbook format, but i see it jumps around a bit AND i wouldn't use the handwriting or spelling part of it.

 

and, LoE essentials for spelling or spelling by sound and structure: which do you think is the stronger program? we have used LoE foundations and love it. i like teaching the spelling rules. does SSS do this? I am not sure if essentials lends itself to being independent at all...

 

Lastly (i should have made three different posts but i hate clogging up the forum...) anyone ever heard of Spellwell? it's actually made by the same company that makes Explode the Code. any opinions on it or how it might compare to Loe or SSS?

 

THanks:)

LOE Essentials is very solid, but NOT independent. You can give them instructions for a single workbook exercise, and that might take 3-5 minutes, and if you have enough kids you can have them play the games together, but on the whole it is not self-teaching.

 

I don't have experience with SSS.

 

My opinion is that any O-G type of spelling method is time intensive (WRTR, SWR, AAS, LOE, etc).

[daybreaking]

I've never used CLE, so I can't speak to that, but we have extensively used R&S and highly recommend them.  R&S was designed for use in small Mennonite schools, where there is one teacher for multiple grades, thus it's designed to have a lot of independent work built in.  It might be just what you need.  They have an adorable preschool series (ABC and GHI books) that you might want to consider for your littles, both to keep them occupied and to prepare them for further learning.  My dd loved them and begged to do them each day. :-)  Their phonics has been top notch and both of my children went from just sounding out CVC words to reading at advanced levels within a year of using the program.  There is teacher involvement in the lessons, but after that, the children work independently in the workbooks.  I've used R&S English for six years now and can't say enough good about it.  For my 2nd grader, I spend 5-10 minutes reading the lesson and doing the oral questions with her, and then she does the rest independently.  For my 7th grader, I spend about 15 minutes on the oral, so even at that level, though there is teacher involvement, it is minimal.  We've also used SSS for six years and it is very independent.  It's well done and easy for the children to understand, so other than a few clarifications, it could easily be done completely independently, if needed.  The 2nd grade book is very simple, so some say it's not needed, but I love the gentle introduction to spelling and my dd has loved it!  It gave her a feeling of success and she continues to tell me spelling is one of her favorite subjects.   (In case it's helpful, I'll mention that we're also using R&S Math and love, love, love it.  We're on our 8th year using it and are still impressed.  It's extremely thorough and well-thought out.  I have a degree in math and used to be a math teacher, so math curriculum is especially important to me.  I am so glad I discovered R&S, as it has given my son an excellent foundation in math and has allowed him to breeze through the most difficult topics, including algebra.  There is teacher involvement in presenting the lessons, but it's not overwhelming.  I spend about 20 minutes with each child and then the rest is done independently.  If for some reason there is an interruption and I'm not able to do the lesson on a given day, they are still able to do their independent work, as it's not dependent on me.) HTH!

[sunshineslp]

I've never used CLE, so I can't speak to that, but we have extensively used R&S and highly recommend them. R&S was designed for use in small Mennonite schools, where there is one teacher for multiple grades, thus it's designed to have a lot of independent work built in. It might be just what you need. They have an adorable preschool series (ABC and GHI books) that you might want to consider for your littles, both to keep them occupied and to prepare them for further learning. My dd loved them and begged to do them each day. :-) Their phonics has been top notch and both of my children went from just sounding out CVC words to reading at advanced levels within a year of using the program. There is teacher involvement in the lessons, but after that, the children work independently in the workbooks. I've used R&S English for six years now and can't say enough good about it. For my 2nd grader, I spend 5-10 minutes reading the lesson and doing the oral questions with her, and then she does the rest independently. For my 7th grader, I spend about 15 minutes on the oral, so even at that level, though there is teacher involvement, it is minimal. We've also used SSS for six years and it is very independent. It's well done and easy for the children to understand, so other than a few clarifications, it could easily be done completely independently, if needed. The 2nd grade book is very simple, so some say it's not needed, but I love the gentle introduction to spelling and my dd has loved it! It gave her a feeling of success and she continues to tell me spelling is one of her favorite subjects. (In case it's helpful, I'll mention that we're also using R&S Math and love, love, love it. We're on our 8th year using it and are still impressed. It's extremely thorough and well-thought out. I have a degree in math and used to be a math teacher, so math curriculum is especially important to me. I am so glad I discovered R&S, as it has given my son an excellent foundation in math and has allowed him to breeze through the most difficult topics, including algebra. There is teacher involvement in presenting the lessons, but it's not overwhelming. I spend about 20 minutes with each child and then the rest is done independently. If for some reason there is an interruption and I'm not able to do the lesson on a given day, they are still able to do their independent work, as it's not dependent on me.) HTH!

[sunshineslp]

Whoops messed that up... I'll respond here😊 Thank you fir that reply! So tell me, when you say independent, are they using a workbook or writing sentences? I was under the assumption that kids had to rewrite sentences, etc. My 2nd grader hates writing so this worried me and was why I was looking at cle. However, I don't love cle.

[daybreaking]

Whoops messed that up... I'll respond here😊 Thank you fir that reply! So tell me, when you say independent, are they using a workbook or writing sentences? I was under the assumption that kids had to rewrite sentences, etc. My 2nd grader hates writing so this worried me and was why I was looking at cle. However, I don't love cle.

 

For R&S, there are workbooks for phonics, reading, arithmetic 1 & 2, and spelling 1-5.  All of the grades of English are textbooks, but the amount of writing at the 2nd grade level is very doable, in my opinion.  I'll be honest and admit I let my children write in the textbooks, to cut down on the writing.  For example, with English, if the directions tell the children to copy the sentences and then add the correct punctuation, I'll just let them write the punctuation in the book.  I do have them write out the sentences that serve a purpose, such as if they're given nouns and verbs and are asked to compose sentences.   When I do the oral parts with my children, I skim their assignment and put a box around the numbers of the parts I want them to do on separate paper and then they do the rest in the textbook.  If an assignment has an unusually large amount of writing, I'll do part of it orally.  As an example, one time, my 2nd grader was asked to write 15 sentences.  I did 10 orally with her and then had her do the other 5 on paper.  For math, I let my ds do all of grade 3 in the textbook without a problem, and then from grade 4 through grade 8, I let him do some sections in the text, depending on what was asked and how well it worked to do the work in the book.

 

I've looked at CLE several times and I just haven't connected with it, probably because I prefer to be more involved with my children's learning and it seemed too independent for us.  Many people love it, but for me, I much prefer the balance R&S has between teacher involvement and independent work, and I absolutely love the way R&S develops concepts and builds upon itself.  The more I use it, the more impressed I become. :-)  If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

[Guest]

CLE hands down!!! Easy and complete. We do love it, having used almost all the levels at some point for math and lang. arts.

 

The kids like the workbook format and that there are 10, not one HUGE book. It is a visual thing, I suppose. Each one done feels like a big accomplishment. I like the built in review each day. It is near impossible for the kids to forget a concept. They also appreciate not having to copy everything out and that it isn't so over the top religious as R&S.

 

You can just hand it over to the child if you want, but I am right there every day. The TMs do give teaching points IF you want to cover the new things yourself. I also like that it isn't terrifically expensive.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Paradox

[Amy M]

Spelling: I suggest you finish the LOE until the phonics instruction is done, and just use that for spelling in the meantime, then switch to SSS for grade 3 or 4, whichever you think is best. It can be independent, it is based on rules, but probably not going to be as explicit as LOE is on rules. (Just guessing based on my experience going from AAS 4 to SSS4.)

 

LA: I haven't wanted to look too closely at CLE since I already bought levels 3-6 of R&S. But the independence is very appealing to me! But I also wouldn't use it for spelling, and maybe not for handwriting, so, it does seem to waste it... I switched from ABEka in 1st to FLL1/2. I liked ABB because it corresponded to my phonics curriculum, so helped to solidify that. It was also quick in 1st and 2nd, just a worksheet a day with some instruction on occasion. But FLL was even easier and more targeted. I didn't like the writing in ABB LA. And it just increases every year. It's a lot of creative writing, and I wanted to go more WWE philosophy. Then sometimes the worksheet would just be " copy these three sentences correctly," meaning with a capital letter and period at the end. Since I also use ABBs handwriting I thought this was excessive handwriting, an I've never been a fan of "correct these errors" type teaching. It probably would do a great job hammering in the capital letter and period at the end, but the amount of writing wasn't worth it to me, and after 100 pages of worksheets, my son still wasn't always remembering. So when I found FLL1/2 for $5, I switched. For 5 kids, I'd have to pay $150 for ABB workbooks for grades 1-2, for a lot of creative writing I didn't want.

[sbgrace]

I'm using CLE LA with one of my kids. I have not used it in the lower grades, including 2, that I think still do phonics instruction. I do believe a friend is doing that, though, with a child who reads. I'm not sure.

 

But I really like CLE LA. I cross off the handwriting and spelling. The lessons don't take long, but the instruction is solid. The spiral means he doesn't forget anything he's learned. For us its effective, cheap, and easy to implement.