UK - GCSE and A-Levels Questions

[ChocolateMomster]

I've been reading a lot online, but it seems all the information is for people that already understand the basics of how the system here works. Does a child first take the GCSEs and then go on to A-Levels? Or if you want A-Levels do you just start working towards those? So, if I understand correctly you can do these exams privately? Does that mean you don't have to show them any work or assignments? Is it 'just' studying towards the test? Am I right, that these exams take place in June? What is the minimum age to take them?

Sorry, lotsa questions. I've been on Google for ages, and I jsut haven't found the answers yet.

 

Thanks :)

[hollyhock]

Hopefully someone much more knowledgeable than I will chime in but I will tell you what I know and give you a bump. I know that A-levels come after GCSE's. I also believe that you have to have good enough marks on the GCSE's to even be able to move on to A-levels, but I could be wrong about that one.

[lailasmum]

You normally take GCSEs then move onto A levels. GCSEs are studied over 2 years and the final exams are usually sat in Year 11 which is when students are 15-16 yrs. Students usually take 8 or more GCSEs. I did 12, my friend's daughter is doing 9, somewhere around that is normal. Home ed kids often don't do that many, they'll be more targeted about their choice and maybe do just maths and English, it really depends on their aspirations. A' levels are the next level up so usually you would usually need the content from your GCSEs to study the subject. Normally a child would take Alevel exam in yr 13 so around 17-18yrs. 

 

If you wanted to study A levels at a college or school you normally need to have done the relevant GCSE or some prerequisite if its a subject without a GCSE. You can study independently fairly easily but some subjects are a bit more challenging such as A' level sciences because of the practical component. 

 

There are also IGCSEs which were developed for international use but are really common now, they're easier to study independently as they don't require coursework. 

 

You can study for either exams at any point in life too. 

 

I'm not sure that there's any minimum age to take them, it depends how you chose to study. Some institutions don't take kids younger than the normal age range but self studying I doubt you'd run into an issue. 

[Laura Corin]

It's important to point out that these are not multi choice tests. They are mostly essay exams, so you develop the ability to formulate an argument and get it down on paper.

[stutterfish]

If you want info specifically about taking exams outside of the school system in the UK, this will be your best source of information. It's compiled and maintained by UK home educators.

http://he-exams.wikia.com/wiki/HE_Exams_Wiki

 

Yes, children do GCSEs before A levels. Typically, in school, children take gcses at 16 and study A level courses (or equivalent qualification, such as BTEC) between the ages of 16 and 19. It is possible to access higher education at a later age,if a child doesn't follow the usual age/qualification route, but is often more complicated in terms of funding.

 

Home educated children usually take IGCSEs as these are exam-only. It is difficult to take exams in practical subjects. We have to pay for all our resources and the exams, and in some areas it is very difficult to find somewhere that will accept home ed children for exams. Because of this, HE children generally take fewer subjects (5-7 compared with 9-13 subjects at school). Some HE children don't do (I)GCSEs, some take a few then move straight on to A levels, some take other routes. Only a few A level subjects are do-able at home, some require huge expense or require the specific exam knowledge from an experienced tutor, so for these reasons many HE children return to sixth form or Further Education college at age 16(ish) to study further.

 

HE children can, technically, take (I)GCSEs at any age. Some start as young as 12 if they can find an exam willing to take them, some much later. Two of mine took their first exams at age 14. Financially and sanity-wise it has been better to take 2 subjects a year.

 

Added: afaik GCSEs are now only available for sitting in May/June, unless they are re-takes (e.g. due to poor grade at first sitting). IGCSEs, depending on the exam board and the subject, are either offered in May/June or additionally in January/November. There are a lot of changes happening in GCSEs at the moment, with some (lesser) impact on IGCSEs. It's difficult to anticipate how the system will look in 2 or 3 years!

[speed.cleaner]

We have been considering A Levels as a pathway to university for DS and have found the National Extension College (NEC), who provide distance education both in the UK and to students worldwide, to be very helpful. They are used to dealing with home educators and even offer a family discount. This link will take you to their homepage or you can download their 2015-16 course guide.

 

Did you know that the A Levels are currently being reformed? The course structure might be a little different by the time your students want to study for the exams, but again I have found NEC to be very helpful in answering such questions. The restructuring of the courses also mean that NEC will soon be offering A Level courses in Biology, Chemistry, and Physics.

 

[ChocolateMomster]

Wow, thank you so much! I still have a lot of researching to do, but at least I get the main picture now.

We're still quite a few years away from having to deal with these exams, but I like to be prepared.

[Laura Corin]

Do remember that UK universities take international qualifications, so if you want to use Dutch, US or other qualifications, that's fine.  I don't usually recommend that people use the British ones unless they have to: they are very prescriptive and can make one feel as if all the flexibility is being sucked out of home education.

[SarahW]

TheseIrishHills, sent you a PM.

 

Another Dutchie! I thought for a moment Laura had confused us.

 

Btw, I don't know if it's possible to just take a few Dutch graduation exams as an outsider. Unless it's an external thing like CNaVT. Dutch schools seem to be a 100% closed system, lol.  :001_rolleyes:

 

Plus, my DH told me the story of a friend of his in HAVO (mid-level high school) who grew up in Manchester and was native fluent in English. Not only did they not let him be excused from the English learning class, but on the end-of-course exam he got a poor grade for his spoken English. Apparently, the Manchester accent is not an acceptable form of English to the Dutch graders.  :laugh:  I've told this story to some ex-pats currently in the Dutch school system, and it seems not much has changed since my DH was in school. So.....

 

 

Laura, I was going to come back to the previous thread and ask - but I'll ask it here. Would it be totally strange to have a collection of both AP's and GSCE's/A's? The thought crossed my mind, but I dismissed it as being crazy. But seeing the issue others have had with finding testing venues, I'm thinking that sometimes you just need to do what is possible.

 

Of course, everything may change in the next few years, but I also like to keep in mind what is looming in the future.

 

And I understand the issue of Specific Course Content. My DH knows two topics in history really well, Feminism and the Rise of Totalitarianism (unrelated, of course, lol), because those are what the Modern History end-of-course exam covered that year. The AP syllabus doesn't look so bad in comparison!

 

I'm thinking that maybe we should have a UK/EU homeschoolers social group. I'm up for that. But maybe someone who currently lives in the UK or EU should make it.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

 

Laura, I was going to come back to the previous thread and ask - but I'll ask it here. Would it be totally strange to have a collection of both AP's and GSCE's/A's? The thought crossed my mind, but I dismissed it as being crazy. But seeing the issue others have had with finding testing venues, I'm thinking that sometimes you just need to do what is possible.

 

 

Probably not a problem.  Qualifications are converted into UCAS 'points' for university entrance, in general.  You can have a look at these pages and see how many 'points' the various qualifications earn, then look at university entrance pages to see what they require.  Even if the page says 'ABB' (for example) which will be A level grades, if you check the equivalent points, then contact the universities you might be interested in, that should be fine, I would think.

 

It would be good at this stage, before you are committed to any path, to call up a few universities and see what their attitudes would be to what you are proposing.  

[lailasmum]

An EU social group sounds like a really good idea. 

[ChocolateMomster]

Just checked a few universities and they all offered an alternative route as qualification for home educators. Here an example.

 

 

If you have followed a non-standard educational route and have been, for example, educated at home, your application will be considered against the standard entry criteria of the course to which you applied. You will be required to demonstrate that you meet the academic entry requirements as specified for the course. We will also require a reference which should be written by somebody who knows you well enough, in an official capacity, to write about you and your suitability for higher education.

 

I'd love to hear from someone who has taken this route! It sounds the most home-ed friendly :p

 

My boys are Dutch, but it's their second language. Not sure if a Dutch exam will be a success, haha.

[Laura Corin]

Just checked a few universities and they all offered an alternative route as qualification for home educators. Here an example.

 

 

I'd love to hear from someone who has taken this route! It sounds the most home-ed friendly :p

 

My boys are Dutch, but it's their second language. Not sure if a Dutch exam will be a success, haha.

 

I know that it has been done.  Alex Dowty is one person.  He used a lot of on-the-job experience and OU courses to prove his abilities.

 

I don't know whether it only works for exceptional students (talented artists, precocious inventors, dedicated law-mavens) or whether it's more generally applicable.  How would one demonstrate 'meeting full academic requirements' to someone who is used to dealing with exam results only?  This is such an exam-based system that I'd be really wary of avoiding them completely.  I wish it weren't so, but this is the system here.  How's Ireland?  Or are you in the North?

[ChocolateMomster]

We just recently moved to the UK.

 

It's kind ofa  risk, not to do the exams and trying to get in via this route. If it doesn't work they waste a couple of years having to do the exams anyway.

Very interesting article, though. I think not doing the exams really depends on the motivation of each child.

[lailasmum]

I can't help thinking that without at least some core exams it's just making life hard for yourself. Especially as it's also quite hard to get any basic work here without a maths gcse.

[SarahW]

Probably not a problem.  Qualifications are converted into UCAS 'points' for university entrance, in general.  You can have a look at these pages and see how many 'points' the various qualifications earn, then look at university entrance pages to see what they require.  Even if the page says 'ABB' (for example) which will be A level grades, if you check the equivalent points, then contact the universities you might be interested in, that should be fine, I would think.

 

It would be good at this stage, before you are committed to any path, to call up a few universities and see what their attitudes would be to what you are proposing.  

 

 

Tariffs. Okay, that's a new definition to add to my mental English dictionary. (So many words that mean something other than what I think they mean!).

 

That's a real funny calculation for AP's. I know AP HG is considered "soft," but I've never seen the same said for AP Art History or Music Theory! I think they're getting them confused with SAT2's. Speaking of which, does the CB offer SAT2's abroad? Any reason why are they not considered in this huge list?

 

 

 

I'm also curious what Manchester considers to be a demonstration of meeting entry requirements. In the US that usually means SAT/SAT2 scores in lieu of courses on the transcript. But I don't think they mean a transcript/portfolio in lieu of exam scores, sooo...????

[Laura Corin]

 

That's a real funny calculation for AP's. I know AP HG is considered "soft," but I've never seen the same said for AP Art History or Music Theory! I think they're getting them confused with SAT2's. 

 

I don't think that they were confused. There's a whole report on the issue:

 

https://www.ucas.com/sites/default/files/app-report.pdf

 

I think that they were comparing the APs to the relevant A levels, and there's bound to be variation between countries as to what is expected at a particular age.

 

ETA: no, I'm wrong: the criteria were

 

• Group A consists of those subjects which build upon pre-existing knowledge developed in high school and where the level of assessment demand is consequently higher than in the Group B subjects

 

• Group B subjects are characterized as being more akin to “surveyâ€1 courses, introducing learners to new subject content and assessed with a slightly lower level of demand than the Group A subjects. 

[lailasmum]

Some of the universities have their own entrance examinations that can be taken. 

[SarahW]

 

 

• Group B subjects are characterized as being more akin to “surveyâ€1 courses, introducing learners to new subject content and assessed with a slightly lower level of demand than the Group A subjects. 

 

Yes, and from what I understand of AP AH and MT, and also ES for that matter, that is not what they are at all. At least, not any more than APUSH. They certainly are not one semester courses like the economics they studied.

 

A test for a lower level survey course is SAT2. And it's odd that SAT2's aren't on the list since those show pre-college subject proficiency, and that's the point of these tariffs, yes?

 

It's just a really odd division, and makes the AP selection even more limited. No one in their right mind would go through the stress of AP AH for a chance at 50 points.

 

I don't really care, I just find it bewildering.

[mumto2]

Just chiming in quickly to say I know of two cases where someone has been accepted into a University program on the basis of exams given by the University. No outside qualifications for the programs they are in. One would have had some music grades for instance but accepted into a Law program.

[mumto2]

Regarding the SAT 2 exams we have found most of dd's perspective programs have a similar requirements to this one at York http://www.york.ac.uk/study/international/your-country/usa/.

 

Several test locations in England according to the College Board site for SAT exams. I believe subject exams can be taken whenever SAT exams are administered. https://sat.collegeboard.org/register/test-center-code-search

[stutterfish]

We just recently moved to the UK.

 

It's kind ofa risk, not to do the exams and trying to get in via this route. If it doesn't work they waste a couple of years having to do the exams anyway.

Very interesting article, though. I think not doing the exams really depends on the motivation of each child.

Yes, it can be a risk. Funding constraints mean that UK institutions often have no choice but to be strict about entry requirements, so it can be harder now to enter with less conventional qualifications than it used to be a few years ago (unless entering as a mature student).

[SarahW]

Regarding the SAT 2 exams we have found most of dd's perspective programs have a similar requirements to this one at York http://www.york.ac.uk/study/international/your-country/usa/.

 

 

 

So they'll only take group A AP's, but they'll accept any SAT2 instead. That's so bizarre, I'm laughing.

 

But sure....we can aim for just 650+ on SAT2's.  :coolgleamA:

 

But wait! What happens if you score over 700!!!  :mellow:

 

 

Sorry, but clearly some Brits are confused about the details of the American system, lol.  :svengo:

[Laura Corin]

Yes, and from what I understand of AP AH and MT, and also ES for that matter, that is not what they are at all. At least, not any more than APUSH. They certainly are not one semester courses like the economics they studied.

 

A test for a lower level survey course is SAT2. And it's odd that SAT2's aren't on the list since those show pre-college subject proficiency, and that's the point of these tariffs, yes?

 

It's just a really odd division, and makes the AP selection even more limited. No one in their right mind would go through the stress of AP AH for a chance at 50 points.

 

I don't really care, I just find it bewildering.

 

I can't speak to the levels of APs, because I haven't done any comparisons.  I did look at the IGCSE French compared to SAT II French and, overall, they are of a similar level.  The SAT II required a higher level of passive knowledge (reading) and the IGCSE required a higher level of active knowledge (writing and speaking the language) so I think it levels out, more or less.  Here's my post on the subject.  So just as GCSEs don't get UCAS points, nor do SAT IIs.

 

The UK education system specialises earlier than does the US.  That means that almost anyone who wishes to enter university in England will be taking A levels.  It's not an optional extra for high flyers, like APs.  There's a fundamental difference between the UK system (broad until age 16 - GCSEs; specialised from 16 to 18 - A levels) and the US system (broad all the way through with optional SAT IIs for high school level and APs for college level).  This feeds into the standard degree length in England, which is only three years unless you take a year abroad.

[SarahW]

I'm just going to link this, without comment about reliability (I don't know) or perspective (uhhh....ok then). This is A's.

 

But it's interesting to see a suggested booklist for these exams, especially including classical curriculum I'm already familiar with.

[Laura Corin]

Sorry, but clearly some Brits are confused about the details of the American system, lol.  :svengo:

 

I'm sure they are.  It used to be that universities only used the UCAS (common entrance) tariff for entrance, which would not have included the SAT IIs.  Then universities started to set their own qualification levels, because they wanted to admit more overseas students (for the fees) or they didn't trust the tariff (it was far wrong on the IB for a while, for example).  At that point, you have lots of people in lots of universities making their own decisions on entrance, and maybe not knowing the system well, as you say.  I've come across similar issues with US universities looking at UK exams.

[SporkUK]

So they'll only take group A AP's, but they'll accept any SAT2 instead. That's so bizarre, I'm laughing.

 

But sure....we can aim for just 650+ on SAT2's.  :coolgleamA:

 

But wait! What happens if you score over 700!!!  :mellow:

 

 

Sorry, but clearly some Brits are confused about the details of the American system, lol.  :svengo:

 

I think the 650-700 represent that scores expected vary depending on which subject test is taken and/or differ on which course you are applying for since each course's admission within the University will have it's own admission criteria and the link was a general page for US students, not a course page with specific criteria. 

 

UK universities for British students will have a very long list of accepted criteria as Unis know not all schools and students have the same courses available to them not only because it differs between England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland which all have their own qualifications but many of the high schools within them give different qualification as well. The UTC my eldest wants to go to offers both GCSEs/A levels and Technical Diplomas. The Uni course my eldest likes most at the moment lists 7 different types of British qualifications, most are just English ones that are all very different, more options in a link and another link for overseas students and mature students and some would say they are not equivalent (diplomas have a bad rep, BTECs even more), but it's set up to work for the systems we have and recognizes a lot of the students do not have much choice what type they do, only how well they do [even that is tough grade mark level and criteria changes mid year...]. Even medical courses will list Double Science GCSE alongside Triple even when Triple is tougher because not all schools offer triple science GCSE and not all students can access them in those that do as many schools have very specific rules on who can. 

 

While some are likely confused by US system the vast majority eagerly seek foreign students, understand with experience what they can get as their job, and are quite like trying to be as flexible for what students in the US can access. SATs almost everyone can access -  AP courses or tests are harder to access (the high school I went to only had a few and transfer students like me weren't allowed in them, and my first high school only did AP for English). As they want overseas students who pay higher fees and it places them higher on the ratings board so they are trying to show how flexible they can be in the general page to get students who can meet those to look at course pages. 

 

I got into a UK Uni with rather nonstandard qualification as a mature student (I'd done a Uni in High school program so my transcript showed I'd already passed Uni level work and the course leader liked how I wrote - he specifically said the way I wrote my emails is why he pushed my application further in the process). I don't recall ever sending them my SATs - just my transcript, several emails, phone interview, then in person interview, then I put in an admissions form from the Uni, not UCAS. No SAT2s or APs. My 2:1 Joint Honours Degree is very shiny in the next room not doing much  :lol:

[stutterfish]

"(diplomas have a bad rep, BTECs even more)"

 

Not sure I'd agree that's true anymore. Poor reputation in the past has been mostly due to institutional and societal snobbery about academic vs. vocational qualifications There were also a few rogue, undemanding diploma courses, that weren't of any value.  A couple of years ago vocational qualifications were standardised, and those that weren't rigorous were discontinued or downgraded to lower levels, so this is no longer an issue. I don't think the snobbery about vocational qualifications will ever go away, until the academics of the world realise they can't fix their plumbing with a history textbook ;)

 

BTECs (vocational and industry specific) and A levels (purely academic) are such different qualifications, they're not easy things to compare. Level 3 BTECs have equivalent points to A levels, (the total UCAS points depend on whether BTEC students gain distinctions or merits) and fulfil the entry requirements for many universities. They seem to be very popular with employers, too, because students with BTECs have proven practical experience, not just the ability to pass exams. The trouble I find with A levels is that for a student to study a subject they enjoy, they have to study another 3 that they (often) don't enjoy. If you know what area you want to work in, BTECs are ideal :) 

 

UTC's (University Technical Colleges) are pretty new, aren't they? We've got a few springing up not far from us and I've been looking at some of the prospectuses. 

 

I wonder how many Uni's waiver or lower the entry requirements for international students. They always seem very keen to recruit them because of the fees they can charge for international students.

[SarahW]

I'm sure they are.  It used to be that universities only used the UCAS (common entrance) tariff for entrance, which would not have included the SAT IIs.  Then universities started to set their own qualification levels, because they wanted to admit more overseas students (for the fees) or they didn't trust the tariff (it was far wrong on the IB for a while, for example).  At that point, you have lots of people in lots of universities making their own decisions on entrance, and maybe not knowing the system well, as you say.  I've come across similar issues with US universities looking at UK exams.

 

 

Oh, yeah, I understand that. My snark was mostly because the UCAS strange split between AP's means that a SAT2 in, say, American Literature, becomes good for admission, but not AP Art History.

 

 

Hmmm....but how upset would it make the Uni if one of my kids entered on American qualifications, and then ends up paying home fees? Should be obvious, yes, but....

[lailasmum]

Oh, yeah, I understand that. My snark was mostly because the UCAS strange split between AP's means that a SAT2 in, say, American Literature, becomes good for admission, but not AP Art History.

 

 

Hmmm....but how upset would it make the Uni if one of my kids entered on American qualifications, and then ends up paying home fees? Should be obvious, yes, but.

Some if could also be the subjects. There's a core of A Levels that are considered hard subjects and you'll tend to see those subjects as main entry requirements for nearly all courses. They'll be things like English Lit/Lang, maths, sciences, geography, history, languages.  Most of the rest are soft subjects that most unis won't like or require even if they relate to the degree subject. That'll be things like like general studies, philosophy, psychology, music, media studies, sport, art, business etc. and a student might really only want to take one as an extra subject on top of 3 hard subjects. That is probably why American literature would be considered good but Art history not acceptable as entry to a degree.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

 

Hmmm....but how upset would it make the Uni if one of my kids entered on American qualifications, and then ends up paying home fees? Should be obvious, yes, but....

 

The home fees are decided on very specific criteria.  I can't see entry qualifications being an issue.  Calvin entered university on the International Baccalaureate and pays home fees.

[SporkUK]

I ended up paying home fees with US qualifications as I had been here long enough on the correct visa. While I'm sure they would prefer the bigger fees, they didn't seem to mind (and I was my course's rep for 3 years so I was involved in several meetings with staff who discussed this). Actually, I'd had to defer enrollment due to law change (my first visa was no longer valid to study) and they refunded me original overseas fees even after cutoff. I think I still counted in the stats as overseas for ratings when I returned which is about as important, especially for non-Russell Group Unis who have to fight more to be seen, as my nationality was listed in everything. 

 

I think the government/Student Loan Company might mind more as home students can get student loans that don't need to be paid back until we're earning enough as well as grants that aren't available to overseas students.

[SarahW]

Some if could also be the subjects. There's a core of A Levels that are considered hard subjects and you'll tend to see those subjects as main entry requirements for nearly all courses. They'll be things like English Lit/Lang, maths, sciences, geography, history, languages.  Most of the rest are soft subjects that most unis won't like or require even if they relate to the degree subject. That'll be things like like general studies, philosophy, psychology, music, media studies, sport, art, business etc. and a student might really only want to take one as an extra subject on top of 3 hard subjects. That is probably why American literature would be considered good but Art history not acceptable as entry to a degree.

 

 

No, the UCAS devalued Art History because they said it was a "survey" course.

 

The SAT2 American Lit is multiple-choice and can be passed by anyone who can read English and has read the Idiot's Guide to American Literature.

 

AP Art History requires in-depth knowledge of not just art, but also history, social movements, and a large breadth of world cultures. And is half essay-based. It's a LOT harder.