FLL 1&2 (Writing only) vs. WWE 1 or 2

[dauphin]

Here's the details:

 

This would be for a 2nd grader next year, and it would be her first year homeschooling (after being in a Montessori school). She is a fairly fluent reader (3rd grade level) and has had an introduction to writing (generally "free-writes" or writing to a prompt) and grammar. 

 

I plan to use CLE LA (and probably Reading) for grammar and all the other ancillary LA stuff that other people seem to be able to keep in their heads (HOW do CM people do it? I need a PLAN, people!!!). 

 

I adore the idea of SWB's writing philosophy. However, I think DD might be past WWE1 in general ability but hasn't had the experience with narration/dictation and copyworb so I think starting with WWE2 might be a little abrupt feeling. I heard about this on the forums once (I think): Use the older, combined, FLL guide (levels 1&2 in one book), only the writing portions (since we are doing CLE), to condense years 1 and 2 of writing instruction but still have a systematic plan in place.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[Kiara.I]

WWE 1 consists of copywork, and comprehension questions, followed by asking them to tell you one thing they remember about the text, which you write down.  Partway through the book, that narrated sentence they then copy.

If you want to use WWE 2 but want to ramp up, just do 2 or 3 weeks of alternating one day of copywork, and one day of reading a selection you pull from some book or other, asking questions, and having her tell you one thing she remembers, and then start WWE2.  But really, from what you describe of her, does she need that intro?  I imagine she could jump straight into WWE2 without the lead-in.  If she's been doing free writing in school, I wouldn't think WWE2 would be daunting.  Unless she's had a lot of trouble with writing at school?

[Tanikit]

I started my DD(7) in WWE2 towards the end of first grade without WWE1 and she did fine. She had however been doing basic dictation for spelling before we started it and we had discussed what a full sentence was so that she knew how to answer in full sentences.

[RootAnn]

I'd suggest looking at and possibly giving the Level 1 assessment found at this link. WWE2 starts a little bit easier than the end of WWE1 sample, but gives you a good idea what skills should generally be in place before starting WWE2. 

 

Other than getting used to the format, I don't see that your daughter would have any problems with WWE2. 

[dauphin]

I keep coming back to this question (FLL 1& 2 Combined vs. WWE 2). I did the assessment and her copywork was perfect. Her answers to the questions were not quite there yet, but keep in mind that this was her first time being asked questions like this directly after a passage. I think she could pick it up pretty quickly. But I've never done anything like it with her before....

 

I keep picking up the FLL 1&2 combined guide...something keeps drawing me back. Just heavily reducing the grammar work since we will be doing CLE LA. But there seems to be lots of other neat things in there...

 

It doesn't help that I just blew through WWE2 with older DD this past year. 

[dauphin]

Bump for any other words of wisdom- any links to using the old combined FLL guide?

[Miss Tick]

Maybe it has been too long since we went through FLL 1 and 2, but it is really a grammar program, I don't remember any significant writing. In fact I liked for my reluctant writer specifically because it was oral and quick.

 

I suggest doing wwe2 and modify the first few weeks if you want to ease the transition in - reduce the amount of copywork or model the comprehension and summary responses.

 

I know nothing about CLE.

[dauphin]

I was referring to threads like this http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/417328-diff-between-older-first-language-lessons-and-newer/?hl=fll+combined+wwe#entry4222556 

that say that the OLD original book that combined FLL years 1&2 also preceded WWE (and contained all four strands of: memory work, copywork & dictation, narration (picture AND story), and grammar). So people who were using it (as an alternative to the newer FLL) along with the newer WWE, were cutting out the writing. I was thinking of doing the opposite and cutting out most of the grammar portion (redundant with CLE) and keeping the writing (as an alternative to using WWE). 

[Miss Tick]

Hmm, what I got out of that thread was that there was no content change. Another alternative for you would be to get The Complete Writer and diy your own TWTM grammar-stage writing. Then you could really tailor the writing portion to suit.

 

But, hey, you can probably get the old FLL book used cheaply, if that is the way you are leaning.

[RootAnn]

From what I remember, there was very little writing in the first (FLL1) part of the combined book. There was more as you went into the second (FLL2) part, but almost ALL of the lessons were grammar-based. The memory work was mostly based on the grammar terms. I'll try to remember to dig my book out & see how much writing there really was. (Like most, we skipped it with no issue.)

[SilverMoon]

I've used the older combined FLL 1/2 with five DC now. IMO there is not even close to enough writing in there to last a year for a second grader. Frankly we skipped most of it and used sentences from high quality children's literature for our copywork instead. There is a lot of grammar, but it is all bite-size and very age-appropriate.

 

Perhaps consider the hardback instructor guide to WWE and pull your own from Charlotte's Web, Winnie-the-Pooh, and such. Or else just jump into WWE 2 and take it slowly if needed.

[Amy M]

I would definitely not use FLL1&2 for writing only. That would take you through very little time, and much of it is based on the grammar lessons, which you have covered with CLE. Go with WWE.

[RootAnn]

Well, I didn't remember all the writing that was included as the Enrichment Activities. In Level 1, it is mostly copying proper nouns (like names) and sentences. Copying poems & more sentences as well as dictation & writing exercises (like dialog) are included in Level 2.

 

I'm still not sure I'd get it just for the writing, but it looks like there is probably enough for you. (It looks really boring. The copywork in WWE is much more interesting.)

 

 

[dauphin]

Thanks for all of the advice! Sounds like I have a plan - I'm going to use WWE 2. I'm just now a little more confident about it being the right choice :). I don't want to have to generate my own game plan so I'd rather use it than the hardback book. We can just slow things down if necessary. But she should be fine!

[dauphin]

We've started WWE2 and are having tears over the dictation.....suggestions? The first sentence of approx 12 words was easy peasy. But the second one contained awkward/old-fashioned language that DD kept (I think unconsciously) editing to sound more "right" and when she could get the independent clause down 100% correct, she couldn't recall the adjectival clause any more. I tried lots of scaffolding and support and she just couldn't seem to do it.

 

This sort of problem was what had me wondering if we ought to back up in the FLL 1&2 book for a little more "experience" (she has none with narration or dictation) before plowing ahead with WWE2. Just at an accelerated pace perhaps.

 

Edit: Just looked at day 3's exercise. I think she could probably do it (although needing more than 2 repetitions, I'm sure).

 

 

[Kiara.I]

You can absolutely give more than 2 repetitions!  That's totally fine.

 

What you might want to do is find your own dictation sentences for a couple of weeks.  I know you wanted to avoid that, but if you're *just* finding a few dictation sentences for a couple of weeks and then going back to WWE2, it shouldn't be too bad.  Start with shorter sentences of dictation for a few days.  Then increase to two-clause sentences.  You can also do narration from your read-aloud books--just tell her, "Okay, we're going to pause and do narration on the next passage, so pay close attention."  And then ask a few questions after, and ask her to summarize the passage.

 

Have a look through some of the classical-education book lists for kindergarten and first grade.  Choose some read-aloud books from there, to start working up to the less modern-sounding language, since it sounds like that's one area on which her school did not focus.

[RootAnn]

Isn't the dictation from the copywork the day before for the first few weeks?  I'd scaffold as much as you need to for dictation, but I'd make sure to talk about the copywork before, during, and after she does it. Don't forget to have her repeat the dictation back to you before she writes it down. If she doesn't have it correct orally, repeat it again & have her repeat it back to you. It is okay if she isn't great with the narration at the beginning of the book. That's the whole idea of going through the book in the first place -- to learn how to do it. (Nan in Mass wrote about this recently, sort of. Your child practices a skill all year long & isn't expected to do it perfectly for awhile.)

[dauphin]

The copywork was easy for her. She could NOT repeat the dictation orally correctly to save her life! It dragged on...and on....and on...and then the tears were flowing...

 

HOWEVER, an update to say that we tried it again today at her request (I was pulling out another source, the FLL 1&2 book haha), and she mastered it with much more grace and ease today. 

 

Interesting point - that pause to signify the comma? (you're supposed to wait like 3 seconds?) - I think that was totally throwing her off and distracting her. She might get used to it later in the game, but she did better today when I quit the artificial pause. And she still inserted the comma in the correct place. She forgot the end punctuation but THAT's the kind of thing I expect her to not do perfectly. But it seemed unwise to continue when she couldn't even repeat back the dictation....

 

 

[SilverMoon]

These videos may give you some encouragement.

 

[arliemaria]

We are planning on using FLL Level 1 with my first grader beginning in Sept.  In the How to Use This Book section they say that the first 41 lessons are primarily oral.  After that some copywork exercises appear, but these do not replace a writing program.

[Tanikit]

My DD struggled with some of the earlier dictations when she first started WWE2. I think part of it is learning how your child responds and what she needs from you - I now repeat the dictations as many times as needed.

 

I will correct while she is writing if she makes a mistake since the idea is to hold a thought in your head to be able to write it down when the thought is your own and quite frankly who is to know if the person who wrote what I am dictating did not change their mind as they wrote? Because it is dictation she must write it down exactly as dictated, but I do not think one or two small errors (where the meaning remains the same) that I must correct will prevent her later from holding and writing down her own thoughts.