Need math help for elementary age! Please!

[daisylynn]

I have a 5th grader and two 3rd graders. We've been doing MM for 3 years now. I think it is a really good program and they are amazingly good in math. I contribute much of that to the program. But the thing is, they hate it and dread it every day. It's a struggle with at least one (and more often all of them) every. single. day. They say they don't like it, it's boring, it's too much, etc. I only make them to half of the problems every day. They do however many pages are in that section (so anywhere from 2-4 sides), but only half of each. They still complain. I even printed my daughter's out in color because she is a creative and said that would help. It has some, and she doesn't complain as much, but I can still tell she dreads it :(

I don't want them to feel this way. Math was both my husband's and my best subject in school. We both love math. I hate seeing my kids dislike it. Now, I understand that they might not *love* every single subject. I'm ok with that. And I don't know if this is just one of those subjects for them, or if switching would actually make it better for them.

I was thinking of CLE. But then I read that it doesn't seem to be as strong a program as MM. I don't want them to go backwards if I give them a program that isn't as good.

For those who have done CLE and Math Mammoth, what are your thoughts? 

Thank you!

[go_go_gadget]

How are they doing conceptually? Are they getting most of the problems right, or are they struggling? I'd be inclined to try switching them to a program with fewer, more challenging problems like SM or BA. My oldest would never say math is his favorite subject, but when I tried him on MM instead of BA/AoPS, he asked to switch back very quickly, saying '''AoPS is hard, but at least it's not boring''.

 

I have no experience with CLE, so I can't speak to your actual question.

[daisylynn]

They do get most of the problems right. Of course, they miss some as well. But mostly they get them right (when they are applying themselves.) I have one who will sit all day and not to his math, saying it's too hard. But once he realizes I'm not going to be giving him the answers or helping with something I know he knows how to do, he will work at it and get almost all of them right. So, I know he just doesn't want to do it, not that it's too hard. 

I haven't looked into SM or BA. I'll check those out. Thanks!

[kateingr]

If they're complaining about the amount of work in MM, I suspect they'd feel the same way about CLE since it also has quite a few problems per lesson.. I second the suggestion to look into Beast or Singapore for fewer, more interesting problems. 

[fourisenough]

I think this needs to be a case of "Suck it up, Buttercup!" For some kids, sadly, math is just not fun regardless of which curriculum you use. Since YOU think it is a good curriculum and they are amazingly good at math, I would say it is working for your family. Try to address the math-attitude, rather than changing the math book.

 

I think MM is very solid and has developed in my girls (DD3, in particular) a fantastic foundation in elementary math. We're about to finish 6B and will be moving right into MM's pre-algebra. On a whim, I bought CLE 100 for my DD4 (age 5) and after reviewing it for about 15 minutes, I boxed it back up and returned it. (I never return anything, so this was huge for me). I already have her working in MM 1A and for some reason I thought CLE would work better for her. She loves to be independent, so I mistakenly thought all instruction was in the light units and directed toward the student. Apparently that begins at some later level because 100 most definitely requires the TE. But the biggest reason that I returned it is that it just isn't as conceptually focused. I love that MM starts right off asking the kids to identify the missing 'part', not just the sum. It is that sort of higher-level thinking which naturally advances with the levels that make MM superior to CLE, IMHO.

 

Try to break up MM by adding in some math games. While mastering multiplication facts, we loved to play Math Dice, multiplication war, board slam, "Make it Texas Size/Rhode Island Size", etc.  Since you have three children working near the same level, you could have oodles of fun with math games, and you could even dangle a 'game day' as a carrot for improved attitude toward math: win-win!

[daisylynn]

Thanks everyone!
 

I think this needs to be a case of "Suck it up, Buttercup!" For some kids, sadly, math is just not fun regardless of which curriculum you use. Since YOU think it is a good curriculum and they are amazingly good at math, I would say it is working for your family. Try to address the math-attitude, rather than changing the math book.

 

I think MM is very solid and has developed in my girls (DD3, in particular) a fantastic foundation in elementary math. We're about to finish 6B and will be moving right into MM's pre-algebra. On a whim, I bought CLE 100 for my DD4 (age 5) and after reviewing it for about 15 minutes, I boxed it back up and returned it. (I never return anything, so this was huge for me). I already have her working in MM 1A and for some reason I thought CLE would work better for her. She loves to be independent, so I mistakenly thought all instruction was in the light units and directed toward the student. Apparently that begins at some later level because 100 most definitely requires the TE. But the biggest reason that I returned it is that it just isn't as conceptually focused. I love that MM starts right off asking the kids to identify the missing 'part', not just the sum. It is that sort of higher-level thinking which naturally advances with the levels that make MM superior to CLE, IMHO.

 

Try to break up MM by adding in some math games. While mastering multiplication facts, we loved to play Math Dice, multiplication war, board slam, "Make it Texas Size/Rhode Island Size", etc.  Since you have three children working near the same level, you could have oodles of fun with math games, and you could even dangle a 'game day' as a carrot for improved attitude toward math: win-win!

I especially love this. Every year we've done MM, I've visited the idea of changing currilum because they say they don't like it. But every single time, I end up sticking with MM because I just haven't found anything to compare. If it was the particular curriculum that was making them not like it, I would be willing to switch to something just as superior as MM. But I'm leaning towards it's just math in general. I'm honestly not sure that their feelings would change if we switched. I like the idea of a 'game day'. Do you do that every week with yours? Do you find that you fall behind in the written work if you do that every week? I have math dice, but have never heard of some of those others. Are they things you purchase or just games you play? Thanks for all the ideas!

[TracyP]

I have used MM, BA, and CLE. I used MM and CLE through grade 6, and BA through 4B. I think all three of them are great programs. But different ones have been a better fit for different kids. My oldest used MM and CLE and liked both. We didn't use either completely, but they complimented each other well.

 

My second child waaay prefers CLE to MM. He just looked at the MM pages and shut down. The CLE lessons may be just as long as MM, but they are varied enough that he doesn't have that "40 long division problems, you have to be kidding me" reaction.

 

I :001_wub: BA but my oldest could never have used it. There is not enough review and it would have been too challenging for her when she was younger. (AoPS PreA is a great fit for her now.) My second used BA, but only as a supplement because he is beyond the production schedule. Otherwise, it would have been a fabulous main program for him.

 

My third struggles with math and he will definitely stick with CLE. I skimmed through MM the other day thinking that he might benefit from the mastery approach, but no way would MM work for him. The way that the concepts are introduced bit by bit in CLE makes the learning seem easy, while at the same time being a very strong math program. I didn't really appreciate how solid it is until we hit Prealgebra this year. I have a new respect for the strengths of CLE. CLE has two possible down sides. One, the word problems are on the easier side, especially in the younger grades. Two, the teaching does introduce things so incrementally that you don't have to think like you do in BA. In the case of my struggling student these are pros of CLE, not cons. I recommend CLE to people all the time because I think it works better for *all* learners than other programs I have used. CLE may not be as strong as MM, but on a scale of 1-10 I would give MM an 8 and CLE a 7. We are not talking about a major difference here...

 

The bottom line - all these option are great. I think it is getting kind of late to switch your 5th grader. Beast isn't even an option for him/her and you will have to switch again when SM ends at the 6th grade level. You said that he/she is amazing at math. Would your oldest be interested in accelerating? It might be time to move out of elementary math if he/she is extremely bored. I am in the if it ain't broke, don't fix it camp. I would be trying other ways to make MM work before switching.

 

ETA: We cross-posted. It looks like you have a good plan. :)

[AnniePoo]

Could you maybe hang on for one more year with your 5th grader (i'm assuming pre-A starts in 7th with MM) and then do a different pre-algebra program?

 

I would consider switching the others.  I have MM and am not a fan.  I find Singapore to be much more visually appealing, varied, and interesting.  

[Farrar]

Thanks everyone!

 

I especially love this. Every year we've done MM, I've visited the idea of changing currilum because they say they don't like it. But every single time, I end up sticking with MM because I just haven't found anything to compare. If it was the particular curriculum that was making them not like it, I would be willing to switch to something just as superior as MM. But I'm leaning towards it's just math in general. I'm honestly not sure that their feelings would change if we switched. I like the idea of a 'game day'. Do you do that every week with yours? Do you find that you fall behind in the written work if you do that every week? I have math dice, but have never heard of some of those others. Are they things you purchase or just games you play? Thanks for all the ideas!

 

If you mean in terms of concepts and solid teaching, then really, Singapore is just as good. Many people feel it's better. I don't have personal experience with CLE, but it's definitely has the reputation as a "get 'er done" sort of program. And while I like MM, it's not a program to inspire love of math - the layout is crowded, the work is often tedious for kids who get it from the get go, and it's just not really a fun program. But those programs do exist. I agree that Singapore and Beast Academy are two that are much more likely to inspire that love if that's what you're looking for.

 

However, if you want to stay the course but still develop a better feeling toward math - or even if you switch programs - I do think having a math games day and doing things like math and art or math projects or brain teaser days or things like that can be really essential for many kids. And it's not just about changing attitudes. It's about exposing kids to the beauty of math and getting them to think deeper than the sort of math that's on an MM chapter.

 

If you're looking for ideas in that vein, check out Soror's relaxed math thread:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/499692-looking-to-do-some-relaxed-math-here-want-to-share-ideas/

[Rachel]

My son had gone through stages like this. When he does, we start the day with a math game and then I shorten the lesson by a bit.

[go_go_gadget]

Every year we've done MM, I've visited the idea of changing currilum because they say they don't like it. But every single time, I end up sticking with MM because I just haven't found anything to compare. If it was the particular curriculum that was making them not like it, I would be willing to switch to something just as superior as MM

 

 

If you mean in terms of concepts and solid teaching, then really, Singapore is just as good. Many people feel it's better. I don't have personal experience with CLE, but it's definitely has the reputation as a "get 'er done" sort of program. And while I like MM, it's not a program to inspire love of math - the layout is crowded, the work is often tedious for kids who get it from the get go, and it's just not really a fun program. But those programs do exist. I agree that Singapore and Beast Academy are two that are much more likely to inspire that love if that's what you're looking for.

 

Yes. On these boards, many consider MM to be mathematically *inferior* to the rigors of SM, BA, and MEP. If you're sticking with it because you think it's the best fit for each of your children individually compared to what else is available, then great. But if mathematical excellence is your goal, MM is an unusual first choice. As others have posted, some students do find MM to be the best fit for them, and the ''best'' math program is always the ''best fit'' program, regardless of ideals. Since your OP was about how much your kids hate MM, though, it doesn't immediately sound like their ''best fit'' program. All of this is assure you that if it's the idea of MM's superiority holding you back from looking into other programs, you can very safely put that fear aside.

[fourisenough]

Thanks everyone!

 

I especially love this. Every year we've done MM, I've visited the idea of changing currilum because they say they don't like it. But every single time, I end up sticking with MM because I just haven't found anything to compare. If it was the particular curriculum that was making them not like it, I would be willing to switch to something just as superior as MM. But I'm leaning towards it's just math in general. I'm honestly not sure that their feelings would change if we switched. I like the idea of a 'game day'. Do you do that every week with yours? Do you find that you fall behind in the written work if you do that every week? I have math dice, but have never heard of some of those others. Are they things you purchase or just games you play? Thanks for all the ideas!

We usually begin math by playing a game, so we aim to do it daily. At various points, we've done several games in lieu of a new lesson. We do math year-round, so I really never worry about falling behind. Google the names of the games I mentioned. We were introduced to some via CC Essentials, but there is plenty info on them available online.