Is there any way this could go badly? Concerning writing for DD next year.

[AimeeM]

DD *really* wants to do the One Year Adventure Novel next year. She'll be in 8th grade. She LOVES writing creatively. She has pretty terrible mechanics and structure concerning essays, reports, etc... but she has sincerely wonderful content.

This is her last year of "let's do it to enjoy it" school work, before we have to start worrying about high school, transcripts, and college-prep (she knows she wants to go to college, and she's pretty sure she knows what she wants to do).

I am *very* nervous about doing *just* creative writing right before high school, though. To the best of my knowledge, One Year Adventure Novel doesn't teach any outlining, essay writing, etc.

Input?

[PeterPan]

Structure is structure, whether it's in the OYAN or WWS or essays you assign or papers for contests.  I haven't used OYAN, but does it use any form of structure that you could put into Inspiration or Scrivener to teach her skills she'll be able to carry over to non-fiction work?  

 

Personally, I'd be more concerned she might get into it and not finish.  Not saying she would, but my dd definitely would.  A year long project is a long time.  Does it come already divided into chunks or do they just assume the student will work to tolerance and finish eventually?  You might want to chunk it carefully (in lengths that fit her) and see how much flex she'll have if she gets off-track.  Will the chunks be so big that if she gets off-track she can't double up?  Or conversely, will they be so small she'll get bored?  My dd is like that. With WWS (kahuna of the big pile of small bits), it was actually better to go FASTER.  Like maybe tell her you'll do it but that you're gonna chunk it and only do it for a semester.  Drop something else that semester to make room for it if necessary.  That way you don't lose enthusiasm (what would happen to my dd) and have leeway to still get it done if something comes up and it needs to bleed into next semester.  It would be so not cool to finish the year with a 2/3 of the way done book.

 

But oh yeah, I'd totally do it if that's what is calling her.  And if you do it at that slightly bumped up pace (chunk and get it into 1 semester or 2/3 of a year), then you could sneak in a bit of your traditional non-fiction writing. ;)  Then it wouldn't be one or the other.  Or go ahead and leave it at whatever pace, but plan on some non-fiction writing once a month or whatever for either her history or science.  Just weave it right in, so it's there even if it's not happening in her LA.  It could even be something cool or simple like scientist biographies or something... famous women biographies... comparing and contrasting famous women in a Cokie Roberts book...  Ok, now I'm on a roll, but you get the point.   :)

 

PS.  Creating syllabi for one or two subjects in 8th is good preparation for dealing with syllabi for all her subjects for 9th.  :)

 

[AimeeM]

Well, it already requires 1.5 a day, as it is.

 

Do you think it would be doable (to fit in a more format writing program like WWS) if I actually broke OYAN into two years, instead of two, alternating days?

 

I actually don't think she would leave it unfinished. She has written several longer stories - it was one thing she really enjoyed last year at the SN private school... the creative story writing component, and she worked tirelessly on those. In fact, when she (in her somewhat scatterbrained way) lost one of her finished products, and her LA teacher told her that she didn't care what she wrote, just to get 1000 words on the paper and turn it in, instead of taking a lesser grade for re-writing the good story, DD refused to turn in what she considered an inferior product; instead she took her time, wrote something she was proud of, understood the grade would be docked due to it being late, and went with it. To me, this proves that she believes in doing work she can be proud of, and I admire that - which is why I want to try to fit this in.

I cannot, however, feel comfortable not doing any sort of format/essay writing program, when right now she can't even turn in a simple outline. I have no clue how she can get the stories on to paper like she does, in such a beautiful way, but crumble when it comes to a paragraph structured essay.

 

 

Structure is structure, whether it's in the OYAN or WWS or essays you assign or papers for contests.  I haven't used OYAN, but does it use any form of structure that you could put into Inspiration or Scrivener to teach her skills she'll be able to carry over to non-fiction work?  

 

Personally, I'd be more concerned she might get into it and not finish.  Not saying she would, but my dd definitely would.  A year long project is a long time.  Does it come already divided into chunks or do they just assume the student will work to tolerance and finish eventually?  You might want to chunk it carefully (in lengths that fit her) and see how much flex she'll have if she gets off-track.  Will the chunks be so big that if she gets off-track she can't double up?  Or conversely, will they be so small she'll get bored?  My dd is like that. With WWS (kahuna of the big pile of small bits), it was actually better to go FASTER.  Like maybe tell her you'll do it but that you're gonna chunk it and only do it for a semester.  Drop something else that semester to make room for it if necessary.  That way you don't lose enthusiasm (what would happen to my dd) and have leeway to still get it done if something comes up and it needs to bleed into next semester.  It would be so not cool to finish the year with a 2/3 of the way done book.

 

But oh yeah, I'd totally do it if that's what is calling her.  And if you do it at that slightly bumped up pace (chunk and get it into 1 semester or 2/3 of a year), then you could sneak in a bit of your traditional non-fiction writing. ;)  Then it wouldn't be one or the other.  Or go ahead and leave it at whatever pace, but plan on some non-fiction writing once a month or whatever for either her history or science.  Just weave it right in, so it's there even if it's not happening in her LA.  It could even be something cool or simple like scientist biographies or something... famous women biographies... comparing and contrasting famous women in a Cokie Roberts book...  Ok, now I'm on a roll, but you get the point.   :)

 

PS.  Creating syllabi for one or two subjects in 8th is good preparation for dealing with syllabi for all her subjects for 9th.   :)

 

[PeterPan]

Surely OYAN teaches SOME kind of structure/outline?  I think I glanced at it just a little bit.  Is it all *words* and needs to be turned into something *visual* to click for her?  Most LC/SN kids are going to benefit from visual structure.  So if you took the verbal structure of OYAN and turn it into a visual structure (in Inspiration, in Scrivener, in both!!!), then that exercise of learning how to take her *thoughts* and organize them and work with them with structure will carry over to non-fiction.

 

She could do WWS1-3 for 9th or over 9th and 10th.  Don't sweat it, kwim?  I think later is better on WWS anyway.  People do it way too young.  I don't have their kids, but I'm just saying I think people do.  SWB's kid was in *10th* when she STARTED writing WWS.  Chew on that.  People are doing it way too young.  Do it later, do it faster.

 

Given her prolificness and how seriously she takes her writing, I wouldn't spread it over two years.  Faster rather than slower.  Just clear something else out of the schedule.  There's probably something that was on the docket that could jiggle or maybe be done with a bit less?  This would be a great year to do that.  Or like give her longer sessions Mon-Thurs to work and then on Friday bring in all the grunt subjects you had to skip to make that happen.  Be content with a little less of something else and make room for it.  I think two years would be a disaster, personally.  Say I who haven't done it.  I just think people need to see a finished product.

[PeterPan]

She probably can't outline because she has nothing to say.  My dd found it VERY challenging to accept the structure of visual outlines and to learn how her brain and the visual webs connect.  I personally wouldn't skip non-fiction writing for 8th entirely, even to make room for OYAN.  I don't see how you're going to have energy for WWS on top of it.  The year we did WWS *and* some poetry books at the same time, dd got burnt out on it.  That's why I'm saying like once or twice a month brief non-fiction for another subject.  It would be just enough to let her work on structure but not so much that it burns her out.

 

So she has done *no* WWS?  You know, if you were crazy sneaky, ahem, what you could do (what some evil mothers would do, ahem, ahem) is take the skills of WWS1, hyper-condense, skipping everything she absolutely positively doesn't need, and maybe scrunch that into just Fridays once a week for the year.  So Mon-Thurs OYAN and Fridays WWS1.  Torture but brief, kwim?  And go through WWS1 with your pencil and condense it so hard that it would fit.  

 

WWS1 has a project at the end.  If you do that, you'll want to have her OYAN scheduled to finish *before* the project.  Wouldn't be convenient to do both.  Like get through weeks 31 or whatever it was of WWS1 (all the weeks before the final project) using that once a week and then have the last say 3 weeks to do just her WWS project.  And maybe during that time send her book of to Lulu to get it printed or whatever your plan is, so then the printed book comes in as her reward for finishing the grunt work.

 

That could work.

 

PS.  If you do that, that's probably 2 hours a day.  You'd have to cut out other stuff.

[ddavies]

Are you still using Jump In!? How is that going?

 

How would your daughter feel about starting OYAN now and finishing it over the summer? 

[Susan Wise Bauer]

SWB's kid was in *10th* when she STARTED writing WWS.  Chew on that.  

No, that's incorrect. The two younger were in fifth and eighth. 

 

My recommendations are here. http://downloads.peacehillpress.com/samples/pdf/WWEandWWSexplanation.pdf

 

One of my boys took a year off expository writing and did the One Year Adventure Novel. He didn't finish the program, but it was a good year for him; he needed to do something different before getting back to expository skills.

 

SWB

[AimeeM]

No, we aren't using Jump In. It isn't clicking with her at all.

She can't start OYAN right now - we're smack dab in the middle of selling our house and buying another - we can't commit to anything as time intensive as a new program that requires that much time daily.

 

I would feel okay dropping Latin/Greek next year, and maybe grammar (she's doing a pretty intensive grammar this year), to fit in WWS. She's done parts of it, but the reading was taking so much energy for her that by the time we got to the writing portion she was pretty burned out. That was a while back, though, and she definitely reads more for pleasure now than she did at that time, so that's a consideration. I'm not comfortable taking WWS and tweaking it or applying it elsewhere myself, without having her first go through it as written - I'm not confident teaching writing to her in any way... but I *do* think that if we drop Latin/Greek, and grammar, we can definitely fit it in.

[PeterPan]

No, that's incorrect. The two younger were in fifth and eighth. 

 

My recommendations are here. http://downloads.peacehillpress.com/samples/pdf/WWEandWWSexplanation.pdf

 

One of my boys took a year off expository writing and did the One Year Adventure Novel. He didn't finish the program, but it was a good year for him; he needed to do something different before getting back to expository skills.

 

SWB

Oh cool, thanks for correcting that!  I don't know where I ever got that incorrect information then!  I'm very glad to have it corrected!  So just for my super trivia, was the 5th grader your *girl* and the 8th grader your *boy*?  

 

And yes, that's what I've suspicioned, that OYAN is the cool project that might not get finished.  

[PeterPan]

No, we aren't using Jump In. It isn't clicking with her at all.

She can't start OYAN right now - we're smack dab in the middle of selling our house and buying another - we can't commit to anything as time intensive as a new program that requires that much time daily.

 

I would feel okay dropping Latin/Greek next year, and maybe grammar (she's doing a pretty intensive grammar this year), to fit in WWS. She's done parts of it, but the reading was taking so much energy for her that by the time we got to the writing portion she was pretty burned out. That was a while back, though, and she definitely reads more for pleasure now than she did at that time, so that's a consideration. I'm not comfortable taking WWS and tweaking it or applying it elsewhere myself, without having her first go through it as written - I'm not confident teaching writing to her in any way... but I *do* think that if we drop Latin/Greek, and grammar, we can definitely fit it in.

So this dc is dyslexic?  For some reason I was thinking just ADHD.  Hmmm...  And you're saying for where she's at she needs *all* the steps in WWS?  I know for my dd doing the writing of two programs at once (like in the same day) would have been too much.  Doing 4+1 (4 days OYAN and 1 day WWS) would work.  If she needs every single step and nothing is redundant or able to be condensed and if she's fatigued from the reading, that's going to be a lot more of a challenge. Will doing double writing assignments in a day work for her or does she need single?

 

Do you school year-round?  Could you do OYAN double pace over the summer and then WWS1 regular pace over the fall?  Or do OYAN regular pace over the summer and then in the fall 4+1 (4 days WWS, 1 day OYAN).  Those would be other combinations to let her do both.  

 

I was trying to think if putting the e-version of WWS on an ipad with voicedream would help her...  It seems inconvenient in a way, because they can't highlight while they read with voicedream or mark within the pdf portion.  Or can they?  I'm really not that sophisticated a user yet.  They're talking about an ipad pro in the spring, March-ish.  If they do that and if voicedream will let you highlight and make notes while you ear-read, then you could throw it on the ipad pro to make it bigger.  

 

I think I just spent more of your money.   :lol:   Just thinking out loud.  I've been dreaming of this ipad pro and what we could do with it for school work...  :hurray:

[AimeeM]

Yes, DD is dyslexic (and ADD).

She can't handle doubling up on writing. 

We don't normally school during the summer, but we are going to this year. We've had a terrible year for illnesses this year, so we're behind in general. I'm ONLY, however, doing writing and math this summer (she has half day camps she goes to).

 

I agree that we would get nowhere fast doing OYAN 4 days, and WWS1 only once per week. At one point you advised skipping her in, at a slow pace where needed, WWS placement and putting her in WWS2. Is this still something you feel feel comfortable recommending.

We could, theoretically, also do writing once or twice over the weekend. So, I could do OYAN 4 days per week, and then WWS two or three days per week.

So this dc is dyslexic?  For some reason I was thinking just ADHD.  Hmmm...  And you're saying for where she's at she needs *all* the steps in WWS?  I know for my dd doing the writing of two programs at once (like in the same day) would have been too much.  Doing 4+1 (4 days OYAN and 1 day WWS) would work.  If she needs every single step and nothing is redundant or able to be condensed and if she's fatigued from the reading, that's going to be a lot more of a challenge. Will doing double writing assignments in a day work for her or does she need single?

 

Do you school year-round?  Could you do OYAN double pace over the summer and then WWS1 regular pace over the fall?  Or do OYAN regular pace over the summer and then in the fall 4+1 (4 days WWS, 1 day OYAN).  Those would be other combinations to let her do both.  

 

I was trying to think if putting the e-version of WWS on an ipad with voicedream would help her...  It seems inconvenient in a way, because they can't highlight while they read with voicedream or mark within the pdf portion.  Or can they?  I'm really not that sophisticated a user yet.  They're talking about an ipad pro in the spring, March-ish.  If they do that and if voicedream will let you highlight and make notes while you ear-read, then you could throw it on the ipad pro to make it bigger.  

 

I think I just spent more of your money.   :lol:   Just thinking out loud.  I've been dreaming of this ipad pro and what we could do with it for school work...  :hurray:

 

[PeterPan]

The more I watch ds' issues because of his labels (apraxia, adhd, dyslexia, disorder of written expression), the slower I am to have any opinion about what any person's child can do, mercy.  He has language processing issues (very, very poor sentence comprehension despite good overall comprehension, seemingly no clue about obvious things), so that I don't know that the mental jujitsu of WWS would ever be possible for him.  We'll see, but I'm just saying WWS is HARD. (Someone might disagree with that term, but I think it's reasonable.) You might look for a simpler way to get there.

 

No, in general I don't think anyone is well-served by skipping WWS1.  They would have to have quite a bit of background and proficiency and no disabilities.  Skipping steps for a child with disabilities who already struggles in a program that is already overwhelming for kids with NO disabilities isn't going to work out well.

 

Doing WWS on the weekends would be lead to burnout in our house.

 

I think it's fascinating that she's drawn to the creative writing.  My dd wrote fan fiction AVIDLY, I'm talking hours a day, the year before her ability to do her more typical non-fiction school writing took off.  When she does her creative work, she's still building skills with thought to screen/paper, organization, working memory, etc.  What you might consider doing is *embracing* this stage (since it's what she's drawn to and it may be a developmental thing) and making sure she learns some of the skills for her non-fiction writing while she's doing it.  For instance, does she have Inspiration software yet?  Teach her to use it!  Get it and make sure she USES it for her OYAN.  

 

If she comes out of OYAN with strong ability to get thought to screen/paper, increased working memory and attention (do Cogmed!), increased CONFIDENCE and COMFORT (huge in our house), and understanding of how to interact with structure via graphic organizers, Inspiration software, etc., she's in a great position to take the next step into non-fiction writing.

 

Meanwhile, what you could do is do paired writing once a week with her in another subject. Have you thought about doing IEW or Diana King or other writing that is typically recommended for dyslexics?  Maybe their more trim models would be something where you could do it once a week and still make some progress?  And maybe do it together to make it go better?  (read it together, both write, compare and laugh)

[AimeeM]

Yep - she started with fan fiction, too! She has quite the following, I'm told - even with the spelling errors, lol.

 

I *did* consider IEW. It would definitely be way too time intensive to do one of the SWIs with OYAN. Can I use the subject writing books (history, etc) without doing the full program? Would there still be enough teaching material in those books to help learn to outline, etc?

The more I watch ds' issues because of his labels (apraxia, adhd, dyslexia, disorder of written expression), the slower I am to have any opinion about what any person's child can do, mercy.  He has language processing issues (very, very poor sentence comprehension despite good overall comprehension, seemingly no clue about obvious things), so that I don't know that the mental jujitsu of WWS would ever be possible for him.  We'll see, but I'm just saying WWS is HARD. (Someone might disagree with that term, but I think it's reasonable.) You might look for a simpler way to get there.

 

No, in general I don't think anyone is well-served by skipping WWS1.  They would have to have quite a bit of background and proficiency and no disabilities.  Skipping steps for a child with disabilities who already struggles in a program that is already overwhelming for kids with NO disabilities isn't going to work out well.

 

Doing WWS on the weekends would be lead to burnout in our house.

 

I think it's fascinating that she's drawn to the creative writing.  My dd wrote fan fiction AVIDLY, I'm talking hours a day, the year before her ability to do her more typical non-fiction school writing took off.  When she does her creative work, she's still building skills with thought to screen/paper, organization, working memory, etc.  What you might consider doing is *embracing* this stage (since it's what she's drawn to and it may be a developmental thing) and making sure she learns some of the skills for her non-fiction writing while she's doing it.  For instance, does she have Inspiration software yet?  Teach her to use it!  Get it and make sure she USES it for her OYAN.  

 

If she comes out of OYAN with strong ability to get thought to screen/paper, increased working memory and attention (do Cogmed!), increased CONFIDENCE and COMFORT (huge in our house), and understanding of how to interact with structure via graphic organizers, Inspiration software, etc., she's in a great position to take the next step into non-fiction writing.

 

Meanwhile, what you could do is do paired writing once a week with her in another subject. Have you thought about doing IEW or Diana King or other writing that is typically recommended for dyslexics?  Maybe their more trim models would be something where you could do it once a week and still make some progress?  And maybe do it together to make it go better?  (read it together, both write, compare and laugh)

 

[Heathermomster]

Aimee, I can't see why OYAN would be harmful especially with a motivated student.

 

I can readily see why creative writing is easier than academic writing. With academic writing, the student has to muddle through someone else's writing and understand the connotation of words, reflect back on another's worldview, and take an active interest in something that they might otherwise not give a fig about. Maturity and exposure to language are important with academic writing. I personally believe that an introduction to WWS at 5th grade is far too young for most kids.

 

If you are wanting an introduction to story elements, the Teaching the Classics DVDs are awesome because they teach a way to employ Socratic questions and build story charts. I almost wonder if a debate or informal logic class would be more beneficial than an additional writing class outside OYAN.

 

A word about IEW. IEW teaches writing by examining already written work and revising it with the use of KWOs. We have used three thematic units that basically taught the method using an experienced tutor. Using the thematic units, DS can narrate but there was no specific training for various essay types. As I understand it, the SWCC videos teach that. Perhaps someone with more experience might explain.

[PeterPan]

If all you really care about is outlining, I would pick something with short, pleasing models and have her outline one every week, every other week, whatever, using the software you want her to learn.  Inspiration is fabulous, so that's what I'd recommend.  You can put their app on an ipad (highly recommend!!!) or let her do it on the computer.  I agree it's a pivotal moment when they connect that the way they think (VSL) can be represented (so they don't have to remember it all at once!) and that it somehow connects to what they read on the page.  

 

Inspiration will let them dump their thoughts visually or you can do the reverse, outlining an article visually.  We did this with Muse magazine articles, but it's a skill that transfers over to anything.  (fiction, rhetorical analysis later for high school, etc.)  You can use Inspiration with your IEW stuff if you want.  Once she gets the graphic version made, she can hit the toggle button and BAM it converts it to an outline.  That outline is live, so you can toggle back and forth, drag, etc.  So if you then want to print that outline and write from it, you can.  You just have so many options this way.  So essentially, at that point you're doing IEW/WTM (outline and rewrite), but you're choosing your own models and doing it more visually.  My dd had no language processing issues and didn't need the sentence variety tools of IEW.  I don't know how my ds will be.  I don't think it's as necessary to rewrite the source (which would result in a very terse, dry product) as it is just to see the structure and get comfortable with Inspiration.

 

I harp on that, but to me the issue is that their thoughts aren't linear.  Most composition is taught (in texts, in school) in a very linear fashion.  So you have kids with very interconnected, complex ideas, making tons of connections, and they can't just go from that complexity to some linear outline, kwim?  They have to have the chance to work with the software, get comfortable, and realize all their ideas can be represented by it, that it can become external RAM (to make up for their low working memory) and that they can they MANIPULATE those ideas and organize them in a way other people will comprehend, with some pattern or logic.  And then, when they've done that, their linear outline that it converts to makes SENSE to them so they can write from it!

 

To me, that takes time to develop, and I think the more time spent doing it (even in small ways) the better.  That way it's second nature to them.  Then, when you say let's write this essay using the methods of WWS and we want to have paragraphs of these 3-4 types they go OH YEAH, I can throw that into Inspiration and I know how to do that.  Because they spent time using it and getting comfortable with the software.

 

But that's just me.  That's what we were doing in 7th, outlining Muse with popplet (later Inspiration) on the ipad or whiteboard  and we were rewriting fables, comparing them (more creative stuff).  Oh, your girl is 8th?  Dd was crazy into fan fiction then and we did WWS for part of a semester, a National History Day project (using Inspiration!!!), etc.  I think letting her do her fiction is awesome.  I think getting comfortable with Inspiration and how your brain works is of lifelong value.  I would only do IEW if they seem to be valuable to her.  For my dd they would have been disgusting busywork.

[PeterPan]

I would suggest that if you examined her creative writing, her errors are similar to the errors she'd make in non-fiction prose.  She'll still have issues with organization, precision, concision, etc.  The skills carry over.  

[Heathermomster]

Inspiration rocks! It makes outlines and sequencing so much better.

[AimeeM]

Can somebody link me to this Inspiration software? I can't find it.

[Heathermomster]

https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/inspiration/

 

We actually prefer the iPad app because it is easier to snuggle up on the couch and use.  

[PeterPan]

And just think how awesome it's gonna be when the new iPad pro comes out!  I'm totally psyched about them making a bigger ipad.   :D

[Mom22ns]

Ds has done OYAN twice. The first time, he didn't finish and participated in Camp NaNoWriMo in June and wrote his OYAN Novel that he had been working on all year. The next time he did Other Worlds. I don't think he ever finished that novel. They were still both great experiences for him. He spent 5-10 hours/week on OYAN. I don't recommend doing another writing program along side it. We did do another English program alongside - EIL for literature with a little bit of writing in it - separate credits. He did OYAN in high school, not Jr. High.