Letter of Recommendation

[KimberlyI]

16yo junior is dual enrolled at the local CC.  He has done very well in Chemistry and requested a letter of recommendation for future college apps - and dual enrollment at the University next year.  She has kindly agreed.  My question is, how is this done?  We don't have anyone to send the letter to yet.  This is our first experience with this and I'm not sure what the process is.

Thank you.

 

[regentrude]

The recommended needs to send the letter directly to the institution or submit it to the Common Application if the college uses that.

It is great that your son has already asked whether the instructor is willing. If he is going to apply for college fall of senior year, he should send the instructor a reminder early in Summer and then send her details about how to submit as soon as he has started the application process and knows which schools he is going to apply, or if it's all through Common App.

[Teachin'Mine]

You could ask her if she wouldn't mind writing the letter now and saving it so she'll have it to upload once you've begun the common app.  Doing it now she'll remember you better and be able to be more detailed in her letter.

[regentrude]

You could ask her if she wouldn't mind writing the letter now and saving it so she'll have it to upload once you've begun the common app.  Doing it now she'll remember you better and be able to be more detailed in her letter.

 

Isn't that a bit micromanaging? Assuming the professor has been informed about the timeline (i.e. student applying next fall), don't you think she would come up with this by herself? She might feel a bit patronized if a student tried to tell her how to best do her job.

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Isn't that a bit micromanaging? Assuming the professor has been informed about the timeline (i.e. student applying next fall), don't you think she would come up with this by herself? She might feel a bit patronized if a student tried to tell her how to best do her job.

 

How would you phrase it?

 

DS is finishing a CC math course.  He asked in person and the instructor said he would be willing to write a letter of recommendation.

 

Should he follow up in a few weeks with a note or wait until the recommendations can actually be turned in?

 

With some schools using Common App and others having their own application process, is it likely to overload the instructor if he asks for multiple recommendation submissions?  I'm thinking the content would be very similar for each submission.

 

ETA:  I'm fretting a little, because we are moving again the week of the final exam, so ds won't be able to just drop in for office hours when the submissions need to be made.

[regentrude]

How would you phrase it?

 

DS is finishing a CC math course.  He asked in person and the instructor said he would be willing to write a letter of recommendation.

 

Should he follow up in a few weeks with a note or wait until the recommendations can actually be turned in?

I assume the recommendation would be needed in the Fall?

In that case, I would contact the instructor before the summer. Something along the lines of "Thank you for agreeing to write a recommendation for me. I just wanted to give you a heads-up that  I will be applying to such-and-such schools/ will be applying to schools that only use the same computerized application system (please do not assume the college instructor has heard of the Common Application!) in September. I will let you know how to submit the applications as soon as I have received that information. Thank you very much for doing this - have a nice summer".

Over the summer, instructors have more time to do such things, but a reminder is necessary. During the semester, more urgent tasks take priority.

 

 

With some schools using Common App and others having their own application process, is it likely to overload the instructor if he asks for multiple recommendation submissions?  I'm thinking the content would be very similar for each submission.

 

It is completely normal to request multiple recommendations. Students usually apply to several colleges or several summer programs or several grad schools. And instructor who agrees to writing recommendations knows that this usually involves a few submissions.

And yes, the content would normally be very similar. If it is an institution specific recommendation, the recommender will change the address and the name of the school and add maybe one extra detail, but the bulk of the letter is specific to the type of program applied (undergrad, grad school, summer research).

 

Your student should make it as easy as possible for the recommender and provide concise instructions and a list of addresses/websites etc.

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I assume the recommendation would be needed in the Fall?

In that case, I would contact the instructor before the summer. Something along the lines of "Thank you for agreeing to write a recommendation for me. I just wanted to give you a heads-up that  I will be applying to such-and-such schools/ will be applying to schools that only use the same computerized application system (please do not assume the college instructor has heard of the Common Application!) in September. I will let you know how to submit the applications as soon as I have received that information. Thank you very much for doing this - have a nice summer".

Over the summer, instructors have more time to do such things, but a reminder is necessary. During the semester, more urgent tasks take priority.

 

 

It is completely normal to request multiple recommendations. Students usually apply to several colleges or several summer programs or several grad schools. And instructor who agrees to writing recommendations knows that this usually involves a few submissions.

And yes, the content would normally be very similar. If it is an institution specific recommendation, the recommender will change the address and the name of the school and add maybe one extra detail, but the bulk of the letter is specific to the type of program applied (undergrad, grad school, summer research).

 

Your student should make it as easy as possible for the recommender and provide concise instructions and a list of addresses/websites etc.

 

Thanks.  This sounds wonderfully clear. 

[Teachin'Mine]

Isn't that a bit micromanaging? Assuming the professor has been informed about the timeline (i.e. student applying next fall), don't you think she would come up with this by herself? She might feel a bit patronized if a student tried to tell her how to best do her job.

 

No Regentrude I would call that a conversation.  If the student has a good enough relationship with the professor to ask them for a recommendation, then I would think they'd be able to talk about ways it could be done. If I had phrased it as "tell her" rather than "ask her" then that's a different story.

[regentrude]

No Regentrude I would call that a conversation.  If the student has a good enough relationship with the professor to ask them for a recommendation, then I would think they'd be able to talk about ways it could be done.

 

I'd still find it weird if a student wanted to talk about how and when I am writing his recommendation. Even if we have a great relationship.

[Teachin'Mine]

I'd still find it weird if a student wanted to talk about how and when I am writing his recommendation. Even if we have a great relationship.

 

Really?   Dd provided transcripts and list of clubs, activities, etc. because the recommender asked for them.  I would think it would be a normal part of the conversation for either the professor to ask for this, if they wanted it, or to ask when the letter was needed, etc.  At that time it would make perfect sense for them to discuss when the letter would be written as the common app is available in August when many professors are not available.  When school begins in the fall it's often their busiest time and not necessarily convenient for letters of rec.  I could see the student asking if they'd like any other information including transcript, resume, etc. and asking when would be most convenient.   In mentioning that the LOC would be needed for more than one situation, it would be normal to discuss whether it should be generic or if the application has a specific format which needs to be followed.  The professor can't be expected to know all this info without discussing it with the student.  Just my opinion.

[regentrude]

Really?   Dd provided transcripts and list of clubs, activities, etc. because the recommender asked for them.  I would think it would be a normal part of the conversation for either the professor to ask for this, if they wanted it, or to ask when the letter was needed, etc.  At that time it would make perfect sense for them to discuss when the letter would be written as the common app is available in August when many professors are not available.  When school begins in the fall it's often their busiest time and not necessarily convenient for letters of rec.  I could see the student asking if they'd like any other information including transcript, resume, etc. and asking when would be most convenient.   In mentioning that the LOC would be needed for more than one situation, it would be normal to discuss whether it should be generic or if the application has a specific format which needs to be followed.  The professor can't be expected to know all this info without discussing it with the student.  Just my opinion.

 

Oh, I absolutely agree that the bolded are topics any recommender would inquire about. When the letter is NEEDED is definitely something that must be discussed. But what I would find strange would be a student suggesting that I should do it now eight or more months before the deadline because he thinks that might be better.

Sorry - you just tell me when I need to submit it, I make sure that it is done by that date. End of story. Helpful suggestions to do it right away? Not appreciated. I can manage my time just fine.

 

[Teachin'Mine]

Oh, I absolutely agree that the bolded are topics any recommender would inquire about. When the letter is NEEDED is definitely something that must be discussed. But what I would find strange would be a student suggesting that I should do it now eight or more months before the deadline because he thinks that might be better.

Sorry - you just tell me when I need to submit it, I make sure that it is done by that date. End of story. Helpful suggestions to do it right away? Not appreciated. I can manage my time just fine.

 

 

Oh my.  

[regentrude]

I'd see a student desperately wanting a positive letter, and possibly being  very nervous or worried about the whole process.

 

I understand that, and that is why I am cautioning the pp not to be too pushy.

Treat the recommender as  a qualified professional. Unless you have good reason, like a missed deadline, don't say anything that suggests you assume he is incompetent or unreliable. I know that some recommenders are. However, it comes across as insulting if you assume right away that your recommender might drop the ball. The diligent ones might not take kindly to the suggestion that they forget unless they do right away something that can be done in half a year's time.

 

That's all I'm saying. Of course, PP is free to suggest to her student whatever she wishes.

However, a couple years ago when I was gearing up for the Common App, I was appalled at the number of stories about professors, teachers, coaches, etc who did not write the letters in a timely manner

 

Great point - and it raises another important consideration in the choice of a recommender: not only pick somebody who you know will write a glowing recommendation, but also pick somebody who is organized and on top of things. If you have the choice of two professors and one runs a disorganized class, can not adhere to the syllabus, announces assignments the night before, takes forever to return exams... well, read the signs, skip that one and pick the one who has her act together and is more likely to manage a deadline.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

At that time it would make perfect sense for them to discuss when the letter would be written as the common app is available in August when many professors are not available.  When school begins in the fall it's often their busiest time and not necessarily convenient for letters of rec. 

 

 

 

However, a couple years ago when I was gearing up for the Common App, I was appalled at the number of stories about professors, teachers, coaches, etc who did not write the letters in a timely manner and really left the students in a predicament.

 

 

You'd think the Common App folks could figure this out and open the app earlier in the summer.  Almost makes you wonder if it's incompetence or malice.

[Teachin'Mine]

I understand that, and that is why I am cautioning the pp not to be too pushy.

Treat the recommender as  a qualified professional. Unless you have good reason, like a missed deadline, don't say anything that suggests you assume he is incompetent or unreliable. I know that some recommenders are. However, it comes across as insulting if you assume right away that your recommender might drop the ball. The diligent ones might not take kindly to the suggestion that they forget unless they do right away something that can be done in half a year's time.

 

That's all I'm saying. Of course, PP is free to suggest to her student whatever she wishes.

 

Great point - and it raises another important consideration in the choice of a recommender: not only pick somebody who you know will write a glowing recommendation, but also pick somebody who is organized and on top of things. If you have the choice of two professors and one runs a disorganized class, can not adhere to the syllabus, announces assignments the night before, takes forever to return exams... well, read the signs, skip that one and pick the one who has her act together and is more likely to manage a deadline.

 

Regentrude I know the above was in response to others, but regarding the bolded, I think I wasn't clear that my reason why the recommender might want to do it now was not that they'd forget to do the recommendation, but that with so many classes and other students, they might forget some details about the specific student and their performance in their class.  I'm talking about things that go beyond what can be referenced through test scores and the course grade.  We can all forget details over time.  

 

I guess each recommender is different.  Some of dd's actually requested that she send them reminders.  

[TechWife]

 

Sorry - you just tell me when I need to submit it, I make sure that it is done by that date. End of story. Helpful suggestions to do it right away? Not appreciated. I can manage my time just fine.

 

 

 

That's good. However, a couple years ago when I was gearing up for the Common App, I was appalled at the number of stories about professors, teachers, coaches, etc who did not write the letters in a timely manner and really left the students in a predicament. I'm certainly not in a profession such as yours, but still, I'd not see it as a bossy kid telling me what to do, I'd see a student desperately wanting a positive letter, and possibly being  very nervous or worried about the whole process. I remember being a nervous wreck before the whole application process was completed, and I know my son was feeling just as tense.

 

I'm with regentrude here. I do not work in academia, my career experience is in healthcare administration and my recent experience is in co-ordinator positions for volunteer work. I would consider it extremely rude if anyone other than my direct manager made time management suggestions to me, and even then, it would only be acceptable if there was a time management issue.  This goes doubly when it is volunteer work.  Keep in mind, the professor is volunteering his or her time to do this. There is no benefit to them if your student gets into any university program. 

 

My son had a scholarship application due Dec. 1 this year. That was the day after Thanksgiving Day weekend. When we left for our trip, only one of the three people who said they would write letters of recommendation for him had done so. They had to turn them in directly to the university. He contacted them both by phone and by email to remind them before we left. Both were done over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend. Were we on pins & needles? Yes, we were. We won't get need based aid - merit scholarships are all he will get, if any. But, these teachers gave up their time on a holiday weekend to do this for my son. They volunteered their time and made the effort to do it at an inconvenient time.  They could have just been "too busy" to do it, but they did it. We are grateful.

[MomsintheGarden]

Awesome thread! Thank you, everyone, for your advice and comments. I am keeping this in my "go to" file for next fall.

[Teachin'Mine]

I'm with regentrude here. I do not work in academia, my career experience is in healthcare administration and my recent experience is in co-ordinator positions for volunteer work. I would consider it extremely rude if anyone other than my direct manager made time management suggestions to me, and even then, it would only be acceptable if there was a time management issue.  This goes doubly when it is volunteer work.  Keep in mind, the professor is volunteering his or her time to do this. There is no benefit to them if your student gets into any university program. 

 

My son had a scholarship application due Dec. 1 this year. That was the day after Thanksgiving Day weekend. When we left for our trip, only one of the three people who said they would write letters of recommendation for him had done so. They had to turn them in directly to the university. He contacted them both by phone and by email to remind them before we left. Both were done over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend. Were we on pins & needles? Yes, we were. We won't get need based aid - merit scholarships are all he will get, if any. But, these teachers gave up their time on a holiday weekend to do this for my son. They volunteered their time and made the effort to do it at an inconvenient time.  They could have just been "too busy" to do it, but they did it. We are grateful.

 

I wonder if all three would have been submitted had he not called and emailed reminders.   I highly doubt that they hadn't forgotten and intended to do the recommendation over their Thanksgiving break.   I would think many would try to fit it in during their office hours since they have to be in the office then anyway, and few students take advantage of that time.  But that's for another thread.  lol 

 

Regentrude is suggesting that she just be told when it's due and that's the end of the conversation.  That works for her and she would likely not leave recommendations until the last minute as she's organized and reliable.  But we're talking about what should be done regarding recommendations in general.  For many professors, and other recommenders, simply giving them the due date and not discussing it or following up would not be a good idea IMO.   Thousands of dollars can be at stake.

[regentrude]

Regentrude is suggesting that she just be told when it's due and that's the end of the conversation.  That works for her and she would likely not leave recommendations until the last minute as she's organized and reliable.  But we're talking about what should be done regarding recommendations in general.  For many professors, and other recommenders, simply giving them the due date and not discussing it or following up would not be a good idea IMO.   Thousands of dollars can be at stake.

 

As I had written in my original reply to the OP, the student definitely should send a reminder before the summer.

My objection was to your suggestion that the student should ask the recommender to write the letter now, 8 months before the letter is needed. This I consider micromanaging and not appropriate.

 

A timely reminder is completely appropriate and often apprecioated - but that was not what I was talking about in the post you refer to.

[8filltheheart]

We moved when ds needed a LOR. Ds simply talked to the professors prior to our move and asked them if they would be willing to write letters for him in a few months when he needed them. Both said yes and he simply sent them emails with the links to where they needed to be sent.

 

FWIW, our ds never gave anyone transcript info or anything else. I am assuming their LOR were based on the context in which they knew him. (class, talking in their offices, enthusiasm for the subject, grades/performance, his goals (b/c they knew based on talking in their offices since they were constantly lending him additional reading material.) It obviously didn't hurt his applications. :)

[Teachin'Mine]

For those who are unknown in class, don't visit the office, have no enthusiasm and poor grades/performance, and no goals, and no time for extra reading, a transcript and list of involvements, achievements and awards can be helpful, especially when requested by the person who will write the recommendation.   

 

Edited to say that this is obviously written tongue in cheek.  I'm sure it didn't need saying, but ...

[TranquilMind]

I understand that, and that is why I am cautioning the pp not to be too pushy.

Treat the recommender as  a qualified professional. Unless you have good reason, like a missed deadline, don't say anything that suggests you assume he is incompetent or unreliable. I know that some recommenders are. However, it comes across as insulting if you assume right away that your recommender might drop the ball. The diligent ones might not take kindly to the suggestion that they forget unless they do right away something that can be done in half a year's time.

 

That's all I'm saying. Of course, PP is free to suggest to her student whatever she wishes.

 

Great point - and it raises another important consideration in the choice of a recommender: not only pick somebody who you know will write a glowing recommendation, but also pick somebody who is organized and on top of things. If you have the choice of two professors and one runs a disorganized class, can not adhere to the syllabus, announces assignments the night before, takes forever to return exams... well, read the signs, skip that one and pick the one who has her act together and is more likely to manage a deadline.

Do you find it insulting if someone requests a recommendation and also gives you a resume and a little background information that you may not have, simply because you know the student in this one context?  I'm curious.  One of mine did this for recommenders who didn't know him well, but knew him in context of that subject, whereas he really didn't do this for those with whom he had a broader and longer relationship. 

[TranquilMind]

As I had written in my original reply to the OP, the student definitely should send a reminder before the summer.

My objection was to your suggestion that the student should ask the recommender to write the letter now, 8 months before the letter is needed. This I consider micromanaging and not appropriate.

 

A timely reminder is completely appropriate and often apprecioated - but that was not what I was talking about in the post you refer to.

What if the student instead requested that if the teacher wouldn't mind, could he/she write it at his convenience, and then send it later? 

 

I still have kids in the pipeline, which is why I'm trying to get a handle on this. 

[8filltheheart]

For those who are unknown in class, don't visit the office, have no enthusiasm and poor grades/performance, and no goals, and no time for extra reading, a transcript and list of involvements, achievements and awards can be helpful, especially when requested by the person who will write the recommendation.

Yikes. Well, in that case the recommender would probably need something to cling to in order to write an iota of positive statements. It would seem like another individual might be a better choice. ;)

[TranquilMind]

Regentrude I know the above was in response to others, but regarding the bolded, I think I wasn't clear that my reason why the recommender might want to do it now was not that they'd forget to do the recommendation, but that with so many classes and other students, they might forget some details about the specific student and their performance in their class.  I'm talking about things that go beyond what can be referenced through test scores and the course grade.  We can all forget details over time.  

 

I guess each recommender is different.  Some of dd's actually requested that she send them reminders.  

I'm also wondering this.  What if the teacher has hundreds of students? Is he/she going to remember that particular student months down the road? 

[regentrude]

For those who are unknown in class, don't visit the office, have no enthusiasm and poor grades/performance, and no goals, and no time for extra reading, a transcript and list of involvements, achievements and awards can be helpful, especially when requested by the person who will write the recommendation.   

 

I, and many of my colleagues, would decline to write a recommendation for such a student.

I will gladly write a recommendation for a student whom I have gotten to know through their class participation, or their participation in help sessions, or through them coming to my office, or even through them sending me a lot of emails with questions. These are student where I can in good conscience voice an opinion about something beyond their mere grade in my class.

 

It is also important that the student is aware how detrimental a lukewarm recommendation will look.

Ideally, they should ask a professor in whose class they got an A and where they have, if possible, established a relationship beyond mere class attendance.

I have, however, once written a glowing recommendation to a B student; this student came into the class seriously underprepared, failed his first exam, changed his study techniques and habits and worked extremely hard all semester. That B represented overcoming several obstacles and was proof of the student's tenacity and dedication - something I was happy to elaborate on.

I have a student this semester who worked unbelievably hard for his B. He sent me dozens of email most weekends, with detailed physics questions. I would be very happy to write a detailed recommendation for this person, because he has impressed me very much - more so than some A students to whom everything comes easy.

So, having an A in the course is not an ironclad rule.

 

Do you find it insulting if someone requests a recommendation and also gives you a resume and a little background information that you may not have, simply because you know the student in this one context?  I'm curious.  One of mine did this for recommenders who didn't know him well, but knew him in context of that subject, whereas he really didn't do this for those with whom he had a broader and longer relationship. 

 

No, not insulting at all. I interpret this as the student wanting to make my job as easy as possible, and appreciate it.

Sometimes the recommendation forms ask questions about stuff an instructor may not have first hand knowlegde, so it is helpful to have this extra information. For example, in my introductory physics course, I have no basis evaluating a student's "leadership abilities". I don't even know how I would qualify this in a class context.

If the format of the recommendation requires me to address this aspect, it can be helpful if I can just work in a sentence that the student has demonstrated his leadership abilities by being on the board of such and such or by being an Eagle scout. I still can not qualitatively evaluate this aspect, but I can mention the fact provided by the student.

However, if the papers in hand are all I know about the student, I will decline to write  recommendation.

[regentrude]

I'm also wondering this.  What if the teacher has hundreds of students? Is he/she going to remember that particular student months down the road? 

 

If you want my honest answer: if I could not remember this particular student half a year later, the student would not deserve a glowing recommendation.

 

I only write strong, good recommendations. Lukewarm recommendations are detrimental and worse than no recommendation at all.

So, if there is nothing that makes the student stand out in my mind, there is nothing I could say in a recommendation that would serve this student well, and I would not be the best choice of a recommender for this particular student.

 

In the past five years, I had approximately 120 students each semester. If I look back at the names on the recommendation letters, I recall all of those students for whom I wrote one. Because there has to be more than "attended every class and got an A". If that's all I can say about a student, I strongly encourage him to ask a person who knows her better than I do.

 

ETA: This semester I have 480 students in my lectures. Through my help sessions, I have gotten to know about 50 students somewhat better, and I would feel able to write an evaluation for about 10-20 of them.

 

[TranquilMind]

I, and many of my colleagues, would decline to write a recommendation for such a student.

I will gladly write a recommendation for a student whom I have gotten to know through their class participation, or their participation in help sessions, or through them coming to my office, or even through them sending me a lot of emails with questions. These are student where I can in good conscience voice an opinion about something beyond their mere grade in my class.

 

It is also important that the student is aware how detrimental a lukewarm recommendation will look.

Ideally, they should ask a professor in whose class they got an A and where they have, if possible, established a relationship beyond mere class attendance.

I have, however, once written a glowing recommendation to a B student; this student came into the class seriously underprepared, failed his first exam, changed his study techniques and habits and worked extremely hard all semester. That B represented overcoming several obstacles and was proof of the student's tenacity and dedication - something I was happy to elaborate on.

I have a student this semester who worked unbelievably hard for his B. He sent me dozens of email most weekends, with detailed physics questions. I would be very happy to write a detailed recommendation for this person, because he has impressed me very much - more so than some A students to whom everything comes easy.

So, having an A in the course is not an ironclad rule.

 

 

No, not insulting at all. I interpret this as the student wanting to make my job as easy as possible, and appreciate it.

Sometimes the recommendation forms ask questions about stuff an instructor may not have first hand knowlegde, so it is helpful to have this extra information. For example, in my introductory physics course, I have no basis evaluating a student's "leadership abilities". I don't even know how I would qualify this in a class context.

If the format of the recommendation requires me to address this aspect, it can be helpful if I can just work in a sentence that the student has demonstrated his leadership abilities by being on the board of such and such or by being an Eagle scout. I still can not qualitatively evaluate this aspect, but I can mention the fact provided by the student.

However, if the papers in hand are all I know about the student, I will decline to write  recommendation.

All right, thank you.  That was the intention - to make the job easier, and not to demand perfect recall. 

[Teachin'Mine]

I shared what may be helpful to either the OP or to others who are wondering about letters of recommendation as well.  Many homeschoolers take a class or two at a local college specifically to have someone who can recommend them and speak to their abilities as related to a college class setting.  Some of these students have no option but to take a large lecture hall type of class or may even need to take the class online.  While I'm sure that they will go out of their way to make themselves known to the professor, the ability to do so may be somewhat limited depending upon the circumstances.  For professors with hundreds of students in lecture and a time lapse of several months to a year, it may well be that they won't remember specifics about a particular student when the recommendation is actually needed.  I would venture to say that the majority would not feel insulted by a student discussing time frames with them. 

 

Maybe it's helpful to put this in perspective with the usual recommenders for high school seniors.  The usual recommenders are high school teachers who have contact with that student in class five days a week (180 days) vs a college class which may meet 1/3 to 1/5 to 1/12, as many times.  But from what I understand, even hs teachers will ask for additional information if it would be helpful.  And I would think that if for some reason a student wanted to ask a 10th grade teacher for a recommendation, then it would be natural to have a catch up session to refresh their memory and inform them of their recent academics. goals, involvements, and achievements.   Having all of this available to give them in writing is a good idea.

 

None of this should be insulting to a recommender in any way.  If a student picks up vibes that it is, I would suggest they ask someone else as they wouldn't want any annoyance being conveyed in the recommendation letter itself.  For some students the stakes are high and IMO there's nothing wrong with discussing time frames, materials needed, and anything else related.  Most colleges have few high school students needing recommendations for the Common Application.  Unlike high school teachers, they are likely not very familiar with the process.   If the student is in classes taken by few dual enrollment students, it's even less likely.

 

TranquilMind most will appreciate the students' efforts to make their job easier.