What's Wrong With This Picture?

[Kris]

I posted before that I had, basically, "quit" and decided my son would take responsibility for his own education. I threw months worth of planning out the window and gave him the reins. So far, so good, but --

 

I'm totally confused.

 

He wanted to do Chemistry this year. I was concerned because he's had so much trouble with Algebra (he still hasn't finished it, though he started last fall), that this might not be the best choice -- but it was his choice.

 

Here we are just a couple of weeks into the new school year and he is absolutely *zooming* through Chemistry -- and loves it, I might add. It is so easy for him, I feel foolish for even being concerned. But he is *still* struggling with Algebra -- and hates it.

 

Here all this time I've been worried about whether he's a visual learner or the program we're using and on and on and on. Is it possible that it just boils down to the fact that he doesn't like Algebra and, because of that, he's just going to be battling it? Or am I completely missing something here? What he's doing in Chemistry looks a lot like math to ME! Why is he able to successfully apply the concepts in Chemistry, but not Algebra?

 

I realize I'm an old fuddy duddy and it's been awhile since I was in high school, but I thought "math" and "science" went together?

[Jann in TX]

I have taught/tutored Saxon since my oldest was in diapers (she just turned 18!). I used Saxon with my first 2 dds until math 8/7 when my oldest dd hit a brick wall... I saw/had many students who excelled with Saxon--but I had a good many who NEEDED a different program.

 

Saxon does not work for every student. It is one program that can cause students to HATE math.

 

I'm willing to be that your son would take off if he used a more traditional program for math--it would feel like a breath of fresh air!

 

Math and Science are connected--but in Chemistry your son is getting the WHOLE lesson--they camp out on one area at at time. With Saxon your son is probably NOT connecting the dots between lessons--consecutive lessons DO NOT build on each other--it seemingly jumps around with concepts teaching a TINY bit at a time--and then moving to something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT the next day. Variety helps some students--but it FRUSTRATES many too.

[Carol in Cal.]

And they practice it a lot in classes and books--there are lots of worked out examples to show you how to regard those pesky equations when you encounter them, and also how to set them up. So maybe this is solidifying his algebra skills somewhat, and also enabling him to apply them. Maybe he will become better at algebra now that he has taken chemistry. I certainly did.

[Brenda in MA]

I realize I'm an old fuddy duddy and it's been awhile since I was in high school, but I thought "math" and "science" went together?

 

Kris,

 

I agree with Jann. I bet that Saxon Algebra isn't a good fit for him, and that he'd do better and like it more if he used a different course.

 

My son struggled through Saxon's Algebra 1, 2, and half of Advanced Math before I decided to switch to Chalkdust PreCalc last year. He took forever to do the Saxon lessons, and he did OK on the tests only because he is good at memorizing algorithms. Since his saxon test scores were good, I kept sticking with it. I wish we had made the change soons. I know that some people do really well with Saxon's Algebra books, but they didn't lead my son to a deeper understanding of math.

 

What really helped him with math understanding were two things. First, he took Physics last year, which is very math intensive. Seeing the math applied gave him a reason to learn it. Second, Chalkdust's approach was dramatically different from the approach of Saxon. Chalkdust works on one concept at a time, it has wonderful DVD lectures with a superb teacher, and it heavily uses the graphing calculator to bring a very "visual" emphasis to math. The book also has many problems at the end of each section where real world examples are used so the student can see why learning this math is useful. For some students, this might not be important, but for my son, it made a huge difference in his attitude about learning the math.

 

Last year with Chalkdust, my son had so many "ah-ha" moments, it was priceless. He went on to score very well on the ACT math section, too. Saxon gave him some background, but the connections were made with Physics & Chalkdust PreCalc.

 

Hope you find a workable solution,

Brenda

[JudoMom]

I struggled so much with Algebra 1 an Algebra 2 in high school (I had to work so hard to make Bs in the classes), but easily made straight As in Chemistry. I enjoyed Chemistry so much that it was my minor in college for a bit. I knew, even while I was taking both classes, that much of the information was the same. But for some reason I couldn't make heads or tails of it in Math class, while it made complete sense in Chemistry class.

 

I'm curious to see how I do with Algebra once my oldest hits it in several years :001_smile:.

[Kris]

I have taught/tutored Saxon since my oldest was in diapers (she just turned 18!). I used Saxon with my first 2 dds until math 8/7 when my oldest dd hit a brick wall... I saw/had many students who excelled with Saxon--but I had a good many who NEEDED a different program.

 

Saxon does not work for every student. It is one program that can cause students to HATE math.

 

I'm willing to be that your son would take off if he used a more traditional program for math--it would feel like a breath of fresh air!

 

Math and Science are connected--but in Chemistry your son is getting the WHOLE lesson--they camp out on one area at at time. With Saxon your son is probably NOT connecting the dots between lessons--consecutive lessons DO NOT build on each other--it seemingly jumps around with concepts teaching a TINY bit at a time--and then moving to something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT the next day. Variety helps some students--but it FRUSTRATES many too.

 

Hi, Jann -- Thank you so much for this information. Your last paragraph really "does it" for me. I've been trying to figure this out for so long, and I'm sure other people have said it, but I think this time you said it just the right way! LOL! I've asked him if he's confused, bored, etc., etc., but never frustrated. :D

 

Is Saxon the only program that uses this approach? Would Math-U-See or Teaching Textbooks be the "traditional" program I should be looking for?

 

Thank you!!!

[Kris]

Kris,

 

I agree with Jann. I bet that Saxon Algebra isn't a good fit for him, and that he'd do better and like it more if he used a different course.

 

My son struggled through Saxon's Algebra 1, 2, and half of Advanced Math before I decided to switch to Chalkdust PreCalc last year. He took forever to do the Saxon lessons, and he did OK on the tests only because he is good at memorizing algorithms. Since his saxon test scores were good, I kept sticking with it. I wish we had made the change soons. I know that some people do really well with Saxon's Algebra books, but they didn't lead my son to a deeper understanding of math.

 

What really helped him with math understanding were two things. First, he took Physics last year, which is very math intensive. Seeing the math applied gave him a reason to learn it. Second, Chalkdust's approach was dramatically different from the approach of Saxon. Chalkdust works on one concept at a time, it has wonderful DVD lectures with a superb teacher, and it heavily uses the graphing calculator to bring a very "visual" emphasis to math. The book also has many problems at the end of each section where real world examples are used so the student can see why learning this math is useful. For some students, this might not be important, but for my son, it made a huge difference in his attitude about learning the math.

 

Last year with Chalkdust, my son had so many "ah-ha" moments, it was priceless. He went on to score very well on the ACT math section, too. Saxon gave him some background, but the connections were made with Physics & Chalkdust PreCalc.

 

Hope you find a workable solution,

Brenda

 

Thanks, Brenda! This is encouraging! I've been on the fence about changing programs for several months, but now with this "new" development, I'm convinced it's what we need to do. Thanks for relating your experience and helping me figure this out!

[Kris]

I struggled so much with Algebra 1 an Algebra 2 in high school (I had to work so hard to make Bs in the classes), but easily made straight As in Chemistry. I enjoyed Chemistry so much that it was my minor in college for a bit. I knew, even while I was taking both classes, that much of the information was the same. But for some reason I couldn't make heads or tails of it in Math class, while it made complete sense in Chemistry class.

 

I'm curious to see how I do with Algebra once my oldest hits it in several years :001_smile:.

 

Well, if it's any help at all, I can tell you that I'm much better at Algebra now than I was in high school! Maybe it's the grey hair? ;) I'll be rooting for you!

[Kathleen in VA]

Fwiw, if I had a child who hated math, especially algebra, I would try to find a program that took things a tad slower and was just a little more fun. I would do that so that my child would find math "easy" and enjoy it more. I do not know if TT Alg. 1 is easier than most, but I do know that I had a child go from hating math to loving math when I switched from Saxon to TT. Even if it goes a little slower or is repetitive, the point is she loves math and wants to do it every day. I figure it will all come out in the wash sooner or later and many folks here have posted that their kids did just fine on standardized tests using TT Alg. Just my 2¢.

[Kris]

Fwiw, if I had a child who hated math, especially algebra, I would try to find a program that took things a tad slower and was just a little more fun. I would do that so that my child would find math "easy" and enjoy it more. I do not know if TT Alg. 1 is easier than most, but I do know that I had a child go from hating math to loving math when I switched from Saxon to TT. Even if it goes a little slower or is repetitive, the point is she loves math and wants to do it every day. I figure it will all come out in the wash sooner or later and many folks here have posted that their kids did just fine on standardized tests using TT Alg. Just my 2¢.

 

Thanks for that input, Kathleen! I'm looking at TT right now. "A little slower" doesn't really concern me at this point, since at this rate, I don't think he'll *ever* finish Saxon Algebra 1! So *anything* would be an improvement! :D

[Kathleen in VA]

I work as a copy editor for a homeschool email newsletter. I am working on next week's edition right now. There is a link in it to a website regarding choosing a math curriculum and I found one page to be particularly interesting since we are having this discussion here today. Check it out:

 

http://www.askdrcallahan.com/faq.htm

 

He doesn't recommend Saxon for algebra which I found very interesting.

[Kris]

I work as a copy editor for a homeschool email newsletter. I am working on next week's edition right now. There is a link in it to a website regarding choosing a math curriculum and I found one page to be particularly interesting since we are having this discussion here today. Check it out:

 

http://www.askdrcallahan.com/faq.htm

 

He doesn't recommend Saxon for algebra which I found very interesting.

 

That *is* interesting! Thank you for this link! It is very helpful.

[Kris]

I just wanted to thank you all for helping me with this. Lial's Beginning Algebra is on the way to my house at this very moment, I'm breathing a huge sigh of relief, and The Kid is optimistic. Life is good -- and you guys rock!

 

Thank you!

[lllll]

What he's doing in Chemistry looks a lot like math to ME! Why is he able to successfully apply the concepts in Chemistry, but not Algebra?

 

 

I once asked my dh (who did all his PhD work in Chemistry and Physics, got a job, and never went back to defend his dissertation) about all this math stuff back when Adrian began posting. He said he went into the sciences because the math was too hard. Which leads me to believe that mathematics and the sciences are two totally different animals.

 

FWIW

[Carol in Cal.]

The Teaching Company has a set of DVD's to cover in detail the mathematics that is used in high school chemistry. It's not a full chemistry course, just a 'the math of chemistry' course. I have these but have not used them yet. I think that they might be a good bridge for your son back to algebra itself from chemistry. And, if he is just 'getting by' in the math end of his chemistry work, these have a good reputation for helping with that.

 

Teaching Company sets each go on sale at least once a year, so they are worth waiting for.

[Moni]

I wanted to post about Bridge Math.

We haven't used it but we plan to in a few weeks

 

Maybe it would be a nice filler for those using Saxon or TT, programs which seem to get poor marks for "application" ? ?

 

http://www.beginningspublishing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=38

 

 

 

 

The Teaching Company has a set of DVD's to cover in detail the mathematics that is used in high school chemistry. It's not a full chemistry course, just a 'the math of chemistry' course. I have these but have not used them yet. I think that they might be a good bridge for your son back to algebra itself from chemistry. And, if he is just 'getting by' in the math end of his chemistry work, these have a good reputation for helping with that.

 

Teaching Company sets each go on sale at least once a year, so they are worth waiting for.