Just another ps vent

[creekland]

The automation machines need to be programmed too. Being able to use a calculator doesn't mean the skill will transfer to programming a CNC or other automation machine :p

...

Besides if kids are only taught to rely on punching calculators, how would they know if software like TurboTax compute their tax wrongly.

 

 

We do briefly go over how to do things by hand, but now there will be less of that and even then, they learn it by steps that are to be memorized rather than concepts of what they are supposed to be doing.  It's rare when I can walk into a classroom, ask what they are doing - what it MEANS - and get a correct answer.  

The "calculator" side feels that those who are going into the programming, etc, are quick enough that they will pick things up and/or learn more either on their own or in college.  The "goal" for school is teaching to the mainstream and getting everyone to pass the test.  That is to be our focus.

 

And they definitely don't recognize when software or calculators are incorrect.  They do not have any number sense.  I could ask them to average 5 two digit numbers and if their calculator gave them a 3 digit number, they'd just write it down as the answer.

 

I think this problem is endemic in math instruction in the US--kids are taught to manipulate numbers without ever really gaining an understanding of what they are doing. I think the common core standards attempt to address this, but I doubt they will do any good when the teachers themselves often lack a foundation of conceptual understanding.

 

I don't know if the teachers have the conceptual understanding or not.  I'm seldom in a room when the teacher is teaching.  I know their focus and the pressure is to get kids to pass the test.  Admin is going along with what is "best to pass the test."

[kiana]

And they definitely don't recognize when software or calculators are incorrect.  They do not have any number sense.  I could ask them to average 5 two digit numbers and if their calculator gave them a 3 digit number, they'd just write it down as the answer.

 

Yes. We were doing exponential growth recently and I gave them a bank account. I told them that after 10 years it had $1000 and after 20 years $1400, and asked them to figure out how much was in it after 25 years.

 

Student 1 did some calculations with the correct formula and told me $25. Student 2 wrote "I have no idea how to do this problem but the answer is bigger than $1400".

 

Frankly I like student 2's answer better. At least this student knows what they don't know, AND knows that student 1's answer is wrong.

[raptor_dad]

I have a TI 36X SOLAR (can't forget the solar!) from high school I still use when I'm feeling lazy. You can borrow it and see what hijinks ensue. ;)

 

:) The 2 calculators we have around the house are my TI 35 and DW's HP 32S RPN both from high school, nothing like RPN to keep people from "borrowing" your calculator. DWs dad is still using his HP15C... no reason you can't sketch rough graphs if you need to...

[raptor_dad]

Calculators aren't the issue. The lack of basic understanding is the issue. In the reform math world, math journals are highly valued. In theory, these require proof of basic understanding. It doesn't matter if you use math journals, russian or singapore word problems, or some other well designed proxy as long as you have a good teacher. Lots of curriculums give lip service to understanding. The fact that teachers often skip the hard work of journals or word problems for a shallow understanding is the issue. Teaching is hard, there is no way to skip that. Reform, asian, or trad programs can get you there, however good teaching is the key. I think the calculator issue is mostly a distraction.

[creekland]

Calculators aren't the issue. The lack of basic understanding is the issue. In the reform math world, math journals are highly valued. In theory, these require proof of basic understanding.

 

The lack of understanding is the basic issue, but it carries over to the math journals.  The journal entries are in the book - all kids need to do is copy them down.  I'm not an elementary teacher, but I suspect copying skills should be perfected there and don't need a ton of practice at the high school level.

 

I get a fair bit of medical info in "medicalese" now.  I can copy it into e-mails and send it to people without ever understanding it.  I can probably even read it out loud and still pronounce things accurately.  But without putting effort into it, I don't know what it means.  I can probably do the same with Spanish or Italian.

 

The dedicated student will put effort in and try to comprehend what they are doing.  However, most have just learned steps (if that) and copying these entries (even with examples) is just another step to them.  They have no desire to put any extra effort into it.

 

Then, of course, they can use these journals on tests, so as long as they can figure out which entry looks the closest to what they are supposed to be doing, they can continue copying (changing numbers).

 

When the questions do not follow closely enough, they get stumped.  That will have to be what I deal with on Friday during the team tests.  I'm to make sure they can figure out what solving path they need to be on when they get confused by problems that aren't close enough.

 

I have today to work with these classes first while they do an in-class review.  Time will tell what I see.

[snowbeltmom]

We now are supposed to teach kids solely to pass our Keystone Alg test.  It's mostly multiple choice.  Our number one method is to tell them to plug in numbers (on the calculator) and see if they work.  If not, it's the wrong choice.  Forget solving the equations to find the right answer.

 

 

Wow.  This takes "teaching to the test" to a whole other level.  This has been a very depressing thread to read. 

 

[Brenda in MA]

So the time spent on math in K-5 could be increased back to what it was earlier...I know when I was a kid it was a 45 min period daily.  My current district allows 30 min three times  a week, and that is just not enough in the included classroom, even with the number of units cut from 13 to 4 and the inclusion of 1:1 aids to decrease the distractions.

Wow... This is just so sad. 30 min, 3 times/wk for math instruction??? It makes me wonder what they are doing for the other 5 hours (or so) a day, 5 days/week. When my kids were younger, we spent at least 45 min - 1 hour on math every school day, and once they hit high school, it was more like 90 - 120 min/day. No wonder they ended up miles ahead of their peers...

 

Brenda

[Sebastian (a lady)]

They keep a math journal here because no books are issued. The journal just records the basics that the text would have boxed in or highlighted in some way. Utterly useless as a reference without understanding and yes, a waste of class time. Fortunately, here this gives way to boardwork after Algebra 2.

 

I don't see anything changing in the near future. The wave of nonEnglish speaking immigration has passed, so the time spent on math in K-5 could be increased back to what it was earlier...I know when I was a kid it was a 45 min period daily. My current district allows 30 min three times a week, and that is just not enough in the included classroom, even with the number of units cut from 13 to 4 and the inclusion of 1:1 aids to decrease the distractions. The Title 1 districts here have funding for independent practice on the computer, which they are touting as helpful, but haven't really shown much increase in the numbers passing the state exams.

Thaw about the time I spend on a day's lesson. Even in elementary we spent an hour a day when you included the meeting time activities.

 

No wonder students struggle with algebra and beyond.

[Teachin'Mine]

If the cycle doesn't stop it will be even worse when those teaching were taught via the "calculator method".  One possible solution is to have math as a specialty class in the elementary years. So instead of the regular teacher, they would go to the math teacher, who ideally was a math or similar major, each day for their math lessons.  This could be a solution.  Obviously a curriculum change would be needed as well.  There is no reason for calculator use to be permitted in the elementary grades unless the student is so advanced that they're in algebra II or so.  The other exception would be a learning disability which can not be compensated for in any other way.  I think that for such students access to a times table chart and such would be preferable to a calculator since through using the chart they might begin to memorize some and would have a better sense of it all than just plugging in numbers and getting an answer.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Please realize public school elmentary here is full inclusion.  Those that are classified will receive additional time with specialists.  Those with relatively wealthy parents will be afterschooled, Kumon, home instruction whatever.  Those that aren't gifted will be up the creek, because they simply don't get enough time on topic...but they will be in double period Math all thru middle and high school and will be remediated there, without all the distraction and lack of time for academics that comes with full inclusion.

 

I'm glad that such a thing exists instead of just shrugging and giving up on the students.

 

But what a pity that they will have to go through several years of inadequate instruction and will possibly conclude that math is too hard or that they aren't mathy kids, when so many of them could have done better with better instruction.

 

I went through elementary in the 1970's.  Gifted education was a short pull out and wasn't all that helpful.  Once in junior high, it wasn't helpful at all, since it was only computer programing - as if there were no other area in which a student might accelerate.  There also wasn't that much in the way of special education.  Except for extremes of mental retardation, the students were all in the same classes.

 

The difference was that there were ability based groups.  Small reading groups, where the teacher could focus on 4-6 students at a time, at the point where they were - not some theoretical point where they ought to be.  For math, all of the teachers in 5th and 6th taught math at the same time, so that students could quickly shift rooms if they needed to.  Even within a room, there was differentiation done through the assigned worksheets.  A concept was taught and then students worked on problems in class.  If you were getting them right, you moved ahead to applying it in slightly more complicated problems.

 

This was a middle class and lower area.  A few that you could classify as professionals, like families of doctors or lawyers or professors.  But it wasn't a high income area.  It was pretty rural still.  I could walk a mile away from my house in several directions and run into hay fields or apple orchards or strawberry fields.  But the schools gave a good solid education.  Even without offering any AP courses, they offered classes that were equal to or better than what are now done as AP.

 

But while there were ability groups in elementary school for reading and math, in other situations, everyone was lumped in together.  I guess it wasn't mainstreaming, because there were separate classrooms at some schools for students with profound needs.  But there were kids in my classes who would now probably be classified as being on the autistic spectrum.

[creekland]

Wow.  This takes "teaching to the test" to a whole other level.  This has been a very depressing thread to read. 

 

 

Try teaching here. Many from the "old school" have already left.  Others want to.

 

I have no idea how our elementary math works now as my own kids are long past that level and I don't sub for anything below 9th grade.

[creekland]

If anyone is curious as to how our school stacks up, we're pretty average for our state and here are our latest released scores:

 

SAT:

 

Math 522.51

Reading 485.85

Writing 461.32

 

ACT:

 

Math 21.94

Reading 22.06

English 19.47

Science 21.12

 

Officially we offer 4 AP classes, but the percentage of students getting a 3 or higher on any AP test is 0%, so...

 

And the 522 on SAT math seems pretty high, but don't credit our CPM math.  Those I've talked with in person feel their taking our College Alg class (using a traditional text from the local cc) helped significantly.  One gal told me it raised her score 200 points...

 

Otherwise, we're 85.61% white (not Hispanic), 11.09% Hispanic, and 32.88% Economically Disadvantaged.  14.31% get Special Education. 3.14% are Gifted.

[kiwik]

I am in NZ and I find the lack of time spent on stuff odd. I think they would say they use maths more rather than doing maths but all the same.. they are at school 6 hours, 1.5 of that is breaks but surely out of the other 4.5 hours they could manage 45 mins each for maths and writing. Even better would be if the did it at the same time every day.