Writing and Rhetoric and WWS?

[lovemy9kids]

We've done about half of WWS and now we are sampling Writing and Rhetoric Chreia.  Would there be value in alternating between the two throughout the year?  They seem to be teaching different things (expository vs persuasive).  Or should I just focus on one?  Is there a writing program that teaches both?  Also, does Writing an Rhetoric ever teach outlining?   I feel like I need some direction, because I'm so unsure of myself in this area.  I don't think I've done so well with my older ones, and I don't want to repeat that mistake  :sad:

[Chrysalis Academy]

Writing & Rhetoric teaches very basic outlining in Narrative 2, but the teaching of outlining in WWS is better, IMO.  Problem is, you only do 1-level outlines in WWS1, right? Or am I forgetting? Maybe it does introduce 2-level outlines at the end of the year.

 

WWS & Chreia are teaching different things, and as such it would be complementary to use them both, if they both work for you.  They are actually at about the same level, IMO, even though they are totally different.  But writing a good Chreia essay - particularly if you are having your student actually write it as a 6-paragraph essay, not just write individual paragraphs in the workbook - is quite challenging, my dd has found.  She did most of WWS1 and bits of WWS2 and is still learning new things from Chreia.  Chreia is a nice intro to essay writing, I think: the assignments are very constrained, very specific, so they can really practice the form and focus on their content paragraph-by-paragraph, they don't have to worry about constructing an essay form at the same time that they are constructing content.

[PeterPan]

There's always something more out there.  The real question is whether you should add another expository writing curriculum on top of another perfectly fine expository writing curriculum or whether it would be better to do a *different type* of writing so you don't kill the child's joy of writing.  ;)

 

 

[Roadrunner]

Rose, do you think Narrative 2 can be skipped? We are winking through the first 10 lessons of WWS 1 along with writing across subjects. I am wondering if I can go into Chreia with my 4th grader from Narrative 1 and WWS 1.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Roadrunner, I know your son is an advanced writer.  If he can handle the first 10 lessons of WWS, then Narrative 2 would not give him anything new. Shannon had fun with the expanded assignments I created from Narrative 2, but that was just kind of killing time for us, waiting for Chreia to come out.

 

Chreia should be challenging for him, after the first few lessons which are pretty basic.  But if you actually have him create a 6-paragraph Chreia essay (not just fill out the paragraph lines in the workbook), I would think that would be an appropriate challenge commensurate with the level of writing he is doing in WWS.

 

This is not advice I'd give for a typical 4th grader, but I've followed enough of your posts and read his writing samples, so I think in your case this would work.

[Roadrunner]

Roadrunner, I know your son is an advanced writer. If he can handle the first 10 lessons of WWS, then Narrative 2 would not give him anything new. Shannon had fun with the expanded assignments I created from Narrative 2, but that was just kind of killing time for us, waiting for Chreia to come out.

 

Chreia should be challenging for him, after the first few lessons which are pretty basic. But if you actually have him create a 6-paragraph Chreia essay (not just fill out the paragraph lines in the workbook), I would think that would be an appropriate challenge commensurate with the level of writing he is doing in WWS.

 

This is not advice I'd give for a typical 4th grader, but I've followed enough of your posts and read his writing samples, so I think in your case this would work.

Thank you Rose. We have only completed the first 5 lessons of WWS1 while I have been waiting for the charter to approve CAP, which they didn't. I have been toying with the idea of economizing a little by jumping ahead, but finally talked myself buying it all since I have a younger one.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yes, that was my logic too - it's worth buying as it comes out and using what parts are useful for my older, because I expect my younger will use the whole thing.  Buying for two!! 

 

Why didn't the charter approve it? Did they consider it religious?  I know the first few lessons of Narrative 1 have things from the Bible, but I certainly don't think of it is a religious program by any stretch.  That's too  bad if charters are doing so.  

[Roadrunner]

Yes, that was my logic too - it's worth buying as it comes out and using what parts are useful for my older, because I expect my younger will use the whole thing. Buying for two!!

 

Why didn't the charter approve it? Did they consider it religious? I know the first few lessons of Narrative 1 have things from the Bible, but I certainly don't think of it is a religious program by any stretch. That's too bad if charters are doing so.

I agree. We are a secular family and I consider CAP a secular program. Our charter decided it is sectarian and won't pay for it. So now is late September and I just ordered it from RR. Amazon has everything but the Narrative 2 in stock. Frustrating.

[lovemy9kids]

Writing & Rhetoric teaches very basic outlining in Narrative 2, but the teaching of outlining in WWS is better, IMO.  Problem is, you only do 1-level outlines in WWS1, right? Or am I forgetting? Maybe it does introduce 2-level outlines at the end of the year.  I wonder if they (CAP) will teach outlining in more depth in the future books.  I'd love it if I could just stick with one program.  

 

WWS & Chreia are teaching different things, and as such it would be complementary to use them both, if they both work for you. I love all that is taught in WWS, I just can't seem to wrap my head around it.   They are actually at about the same level, IMO, even though they are totally different.  But writing a good Chreia essay - particularly if you are having your student actually write it as a 6-paragraph essay, not just write individual paragraphs in the workbook - is quite challenging, my dd has found. Is this something I'd have to do on my own?  Is it not scheduled in the guide?  I thought that is what they are teaching the kids to do.   She did most of WWS1 and bits of WWS2 and is still learning new things from Chreia.  Chreia is a nice intro to essay writing, I think: the assignments are very constrained, very specific, so they can really practice the form and focus on their content paragraph-by-paragraph, they don't have to worry about constructing an essay form at the same time that they are constructing content.

 

The child I want to use this with is in 8th grade.  We tried Medieval Writing with IEW (2 weeks) and I just did not like it.  I felt like the KWO didn't make him think enough.  Anyway, I really wanted to like it, but now I am back to the drawing board.  Is there one curriculum that teaches everything?  

 

[Penelope]

Is there something about WWS that wasn't working for him?

 

I think WWS teaches outlining very well. I also think it teaches many other things quite well. I understand the format doesn't work for every child, but it's about perfect for my seventh grader, and I will use it in some form for my other children, too.

 

I am really not worried about the persuasive part yet, because I think WWS is teaching him how to write. And so I feel pretty confident he could do some level of persuasive essay now if I required it, but I think it's also perfectly fine to save the rhetoric/persuasive part for high school, and I see the value of SWB's approach there.

 

I haven't seen Chreia. I do have Fable and the 2 narrative levels of CAP and have used them with another child, and have mixed opinions. But as to combining programs, maybe that is possible with WWS1 and an older student, but I know that with my seventh grader who will start WWS3 when it comes out this fall, I would be unable to do another full program along with WWS unless we took much longer than a year to finish. We already take periodic periodic breaks from WWS to write across the curriculum, but those weeks aren't as heavy for writing because they aren't following a syllabus and learning brand new skills.

[Chrysalis Academy]

The child I want to use this with is in 8th grade.  We tried Medieval Writing with IEW (2 weeks) and I just did not like it.  I felt like the KWO didn't make him think enough.  Anyway, I really wanted to like it, but now I am back to the drawing board.  Is there one curriculum that teaches everything?  

 

 

I agree with Penelope, the way WWS teaches outlining is really superior, IMO.  The problem with the outlining in Narrative 2 is that you are outlining narratives - fictional stories - which is different from outlining nonfiction texts.

 

In the Chreia workbook, the student writes their Chreia one paragraph at a time, in the space provided.  It is up to the instructor if you want to have them type it and revise/edit it as a regular essay.  So yes, you have to give that additional instruction, but it's not a hard instruction to give.

 

Chreia wouldn't be enough for us for 7th grade.  It's a really nice introduction to a very specific type of essay - a very structured essay, where it is clear to the student what they are meant to do in each paragraph.  It's a form of scaffolding that is very useful for us as we embark on learning to write essays.  But no, I can't say Chreia is a sufficient stand-alone program for a 7th or 8th grader, certainly not for a whole year - it's just 12 lessons.  WWS is.  So if you just want to use one thing, and have it do all the teaching you need, you might stick with WWS if it's working.

 

WWS wasn't a good style fit for me as a teacher or for my dd as a writer, which is why we have investigated other options.  I also like using multiple curricula, in parts, as tools, for specific purposes.  So my advice might be totally unworkable for you, and for many other people!  Take it with a grain of salt.  Probably its only real value is that I'm one of only a few people who is using the upper levels of W&R with an older student.

[lovemy9kids]

Is there something about WWS that wasn't working for him?

We got to about half way.  It just seem to get complicated.  Also, I don't know how the student is supposed to remember all of the different things being taught.

 

I think WWS teaches outlining very well. I agree   I also think it teaches many other things quite well. I understand the format doesn't work for every child,  but it's about perfect for my seventh grader, and I will use it in some form for my other children, too.

 

I am really not worried about the persuasive part yet, because I think WWS is teaching him how to write. And so I feel pretty confident he could do some level of persuasive essay now if I required it, but I think it's also perfectly fine to save the rhetoric/persuasive part for high school, and I see the value of SWB's approach there.

 

I haven't seen Chreia. I do have Fable and the 2 narrative levels of CAP and have used them with another child, and have mixed opinions. But as to combining programs, maybe that is possible with WWS1 and an older student, but I know that with my seventh grader who will start WWS3 ~that's amazing! when it comes out this fall, I would be unable to do another full program along with WWS unless we took much longer than a year to finish. We already take periodic periodic breaks from WWS to write across the curriculum, but those weeks aren't as heavy for writing because they aren't following a syllabus and learning brand new skills.

 

 

I agree with Penelope, the way WWS teaches outlining is really superior, IMO.  The problem with the outlining in Narrative 2 is that you are outlining narratives - fictional stories - which is different from outlining nonfiction texts.

 

In the Chreia workbook, the student writes their Chreia one paragraph at a time, in the space provided.  It is up to the instructor if you want to have them type it and revise/edit it as a regular essay.  So yes, you have to give that additional instruction, but it's not a hard instruction to give.~ I understand now.  That sounds easy enough. 

 

Chreia wouldn't be enough for us for 7th grade.  It's a really nice introduction to a very specific type of essay - a very structured essay, where it is clear to the student what they are meant to do in each paragraph.  It's a form of scaffolding that is very useful for us as we embark on learning to write essays.  But no, I can't say Chreia is a sufficient stand-alone program for a 7th or 8th grader, certainly not for a whole year - it's just 12 lessons.  ~Even if he is writing across the curriculum as well?  WWS is.  So if you just want to use one thing, and have it do all the teaching you need, you might stick with WWS if it's working.  ~Hmm there's the rub.  I think the problem is I don't get it, so it's hard for me to teach to someone else.  It just seems to make things more complicated than they need to be.  I don't get a clear picture of where we are going.  I so much wanted to like it though!

 

WWS wasn't a good style fit for me as a teacher or for my dd as a writer, which is why we have investigated other options.  I also like using multiple curricula, in parts, as tools, for specific purposes.  So my advice might be totally unworkable for you, and for many other people!  Take it with a grain of salt.  Probably its only real value is that I'm one of only a few people who is using the upper levels of W&R with an older student. ~ I appreciate your help!

 

 

Thank you very much, ladies.  This is one area a would love to outsource if I could afford it!

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Oh, if you are using Chreia to introduce essays and doing other writing as well, that would be fine - I just meant that if you were looking for a writing program to do everything all in one, Chreia isn't it for an 8th grader, IMO.  

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I've only used WWS, so I can't compare the two, but I can give you my thoughts on WWS... (I've looked through W and R, but didn't feel drawn to it.)

 

I use a mix of writing resources, but WWS is the main one for many reasons. It's been a fantastic fit for us - the way it's written to the student, the suggestions and rubric in the teacher guide, the selections chosen to analyze...

 

If I were going to use just one writing program, it would be WWS. If you are already using it, and it's a good fit, I would stick with it. If it's not a good fit, that's a different story. ;)