Skipping the Literature Link in LLATL and Replacing With Another Lit Guide

[sweetpea3829]

A frequent complaint I've read of LLATL is that the literature choices are...well...not fantastic.  As I'm sitting here planning out Yellow (3rd grade), I'm finding I don't love the selections, lol.  I'm really not even liking the way they have the Literature Link section written.  

 

I was thinking of just completely cutting out the Literature Link sections and replacing them instead with a concurrent Literature guide from TLP or Progeny Press.  

 

Would I be missing anything important if I cut out those Literature Links but replace them with a Lit Guide?  

[kristi26]

Why don't you just use TLP if you're thinking about replacing that section? We use it here and love it!

[sweetpea3829]

Why don't you just use TLP if you're thinking about replacing that section? We use it here and love it!

 

LOL, because I'm not ready to give up the LLATL hand-holding just yet.  

[susankhan]

How is TLP?   I am using ELTL  right now and really like it.  Would this be something I could add to it?  Thank you

[Hunter]

Sometimes you can easily substitute, sometimes it would be a bit trickier. I would decide on a book by book basis.

 

I was planning on using LLATL this year, and then I started piecing together stuff that I thought was "better", and just this morning, I looked longing over at the pile of LLATL. I don't know.

 

LLATL Yellow literature books are SHORT. Unless cost is an issue, they get the job done in a short amount of time. And then the student can read whatever they want.

 

No individual piece of LLATL is wonderful, but as a WHOLE, I think most students will come out the other end better off than if the instructor wasted lots of time and money trying to do "better".

 

All I'm doing right now, since I put the LLATL away, is  :willy_nilly:  and  :banghead:  and spending more money than I should on little bits and pieces I'm trying to cobble into a whole.

 

I don't know what I'm going to do, but if I had any sense at all, I'd just use LLATL with the students that it will work for. I've got a group of them that need rhythm and consistency and my attention more than they need ever changing curricula that are never any better as a WHOLE than what I was using before.

 

And even if something is AWESOME, what else gets out of balance to make time for this AWESOME curriculum. I was reading WRTR 4th last night and this morning. It says it takes 3 hours a day, and I have found that to be true. Sigh! Okay, so, MAYBE I can produce better spellers in 15 hours a week, than the 30 minutes devoted to spelling in LLATL. Is it worth it? For ALL students?

 

I'm just talking out loud. No advice. :grouphug:

 

 

[poiema]

No, you wouldn't be missing much. My ds enjoyed reading The White Stallion and The Courage of Sarah Noble, but even with those books we only did some of the link, mostly just comprehension questions and writing. We split each link (including reading) into 2 days, except Sarah Noble because we read that book for history (BF) so I followed that schedule. I absolutely think you could skip them (or not) and do another literature guide.

 

Even though you didn't ask about spelling, but because Hunter mentioned it, I also *give you permission* to do something else for spelling. Heck, I even give you permission to do something else for cursive. I really don't think either of those things are the heart of LLATL yellow, so even if you skip/use something else you are still getting a benefit from using LLATL. Just my $0.02.

[sweetpea3829]

Sometimes you can easily substitute, sometimes it would be a bit trickier. I would decide on a book by book basis.

 

I was planning on using LLATL this year, and then I started piecing together stuff that I thought was "better", and just this morning, I looked longing over at the pile of LLATL. I don't know.

 

LLATL Yellow literature books are SHORT. Unless cost is an issue, they get the job done in a short amount of time. And then the student can read whatever they want.

 

No individual piece of LLATL is wonderful, but as a WHOLE, I think most students will come out the other end better off than if the instructor wasted lots of time and money trying to do "better".

 

All I'm doing right now, since I put the LLATL away, is  :willy_nilly:  and  :banghead:  and spending more money than I should on little bits and pieces I'm trying to cobble into a whole.

 

I don't know what I'm going to do, but if I had any sense at all, I'd just use LLATL with the students that it will work for. I've got a group of them that need rhythm and consistency and my attention more than they need ever changing curricula that are never any better as a WHOLE than what I was using before.

 

And even if something is AWESOME, what else gets out of balance to make time for this AWESOME curriculum. I was reading WRTR 4th last night and this morning. It says it takes 3 hours a day, and I have found that to be true. Sigh! Okay, so, MAYBE I can produce better spellers in 15 hours a week, than the 30 minutes devoted to spelling in LLATL. Is it worth it? For ALL students?

 

I'm just talking out loud. No advice. :grouphug:

This (bolded part) is why I'm having a hard time chucking LLATL out the window.  I really don't like it.  But, in the end, it will get the entire job done.  It just doesn't really go deep enough with anything.  

 

 

 

 

No, you wouldn't be missing much. My ds enjoyed reading The White Stallion and The Courage of Sarah Noble, but even with those books we only did some of the link, mostly just comprehension questions and writing. We split each link (including reading) into 2 days, except Sarah Noble because we read that book for history (BF) so I followed that schedule. I absolutely think you could skip them (or not) and do another literature guide.

 

Even though you didn't ask about spelling, but because Hunter mentioned it, I also *give you permission* to do something else for spelling. Heck, I even give you permission to do something else for cursive. I really don't think either of those things are the heart of LLATL yellow, so even if you skip/use something else you are still getting a benefit from using LLATL. Just my $0.02.

 

LOL!  And this whole comment is pretty much why I DO want to chuck LLATL.  I supplement so much of it, I find myself asking "Why am I still buying this?"  I already use a different spelling curriculum (AAS...which I would probably use regardless of how good the spelling was in LLATL).  I am not teaching cursive this year, but am waiting until all four of mine are able to write (youngest is learning this year) and then we'll do a summer workshop on cursive with all of them.  

 

The literature aspect of LLATL is pretty weak, at least at this level...so there's another way I'm going to supplement it.  And I found last year, that the grammar wasn't enough...I needed to supplement it to help it stick.  

 

And probably next year, I'll add a separate writing curriculum such as Brave Writer.  

 

This year will really be a make it or break it year for LLATL in this house.  

[sweetpea3829]

How is TLP?   I am using ELTL  right now and really like it.  Would this be something I could add to it?  Thank you

 

I'm still feeling TLP out.  I have to use a program for awhile before I can really get a good idea of how its going to work.  

 

I'm not familiar with ELTL, though I'm assuming it's "English Language Through Literature" or something along that line?  

[mysticmomma]

For us, in orange and purple, the literature selections are used for spelling, copy work, grammar, etc. so it just wasn't worth it to omit the literature. It's built into the whole of the program.

[sweetpea3829]

For us, in orange and purple, the literature selections are used for spelling, copy work, grammar, etc. so it just wasn't worth it to omit the literature. It's built into the whole of the program.

 

So are those levels different from Yellow, then?  In Yellow, each weekly lesson has a literature selection, but its just a small snippet.  That selection is used for the lessons all week.  Then, every 6 weeks or so, there's a Literature Link where they assign an actual book and the structure of the lessons changes slightly.  Then, after that book, back to the weekly snippet selections.  

 

What I'm thinking of doing is omitting the four Literature Link, but keeping the snippet literature selections.  Instead of the Lit Link, I'll do a concurrent Literature guide.  For example, I'm planning on using Progeny Press' Whipping Boy Lit Guide for the first 6 weeks (or so) of this upcoming semester, alongside the LLATL lessons.  

[kristi26]

How is TLP?   I am using ELTL  right now and really like it.  Would this be something I could add to it?  Thank you

 

We love it here.  I've used it for my fifth and eighth grader (last year) and am planning on using it again with my now-third grader and sixth grader (ninth grader is off to an art school). I like it because you can choose the books you want to study and then choose the activities that you want done from the guide.  They have lots of extra fun ideas that you can do or not, depending on how you feel about it.  Plus it is pretty independent (which I really like). :)

[mysticmomma]

So are those levels different from Yellow, then? In Yellow, each weekly lesson has a literature selection, but its just a small snippet. That selection is used for the lessons all week. Then, every 6 weeks or so, there's a Literature Link where they assign an actual book and the structure of the lessons changes slightly. Then, after that book, back to the weekly snippet selections.

 

What I'm thinking of doing is omitting the four Literature Link, but keeping the snippet literature selections. Instead of the Lit Link, I'll do a concurrent Literature guide. For example, I'm planning on using Progeny Press' Whipping Boy Lit Guide for the first 6 weeks (or so) of this upcoming semester, alongside the LLATL lessons.

In orange and purple, the snippets come from the books that are used for the book studies.

[Hunter]

Sometimes the "Everyday Words" chapters include excerpts from the main literature books.

 

I think using LLATL unsupplemented works best for people that believe in the benefits and possibilities of unschooling. I KNOW that a leaner curriculum supplemented by work, chores, daily life, church, volunteering, etc. works.

 

Also, I find it very easy to review past LLATL lessons in whatever else is being studied in the Bible and content lessons and even the arts.

 

My oldest completed American School for high school and it is similar to LLATL. It was good enough. And then he attended family worship each morning and he WORKED. I have seen the benefits of LESS study and MORE work. 

 

I just use the TMs, as I do tweak a bit, like hand writing out Yellow Book cursive lessons in the Spalding hand. I do not think all students will benefit from extensive supplementing, though. I think many will benefit the most from doing LLATL and then going off and doing something ENTIRELY different.

[Hunter]

What is TLP?

[Susie in MS]

What is TLP?

 

Total Language Plus.

[ElizaG]

Total Language Plus.

Oh, okay!  I thought it was "The Living Page."  (Needless to say, I was confused about how that would fit in.   :p )

[sweetpea3829]

In orange and purple, the snippets come from the books that are used for the book studies.

 

Well that makes a lot more sense than what the Yellow does with the snippets coming from completely unrelated sources.  

 

I've read some negative reviews of Orange...did you use Yellow as well?  If so, is the format pretty much the same in Orange?

[Hunter]

I have almost the whole set of TMs, some in eBook and some in hardcopy.

 

I think Orange is just fine, and am back to looking at using it with a particular student, who is currently reading Boxcar Children and loves that book.

 

I think I remember some complaints of Orange and Purple being about them being outdated. I teach snailmail no matter what curriculum I'm teaching, so I expect snailmail in my curricula. Maybe *I* am outdated though.  :biggrinjester:

 

I'm going to read through Orange tonight and will try and give a better review tomorrow.

 

My Yellow is eBook and my Orange is hardcopy. Orange does not continue the handwriting in Yellow, so that makes it look quite a bit different.

[sweetpea3829]

Hunter,

 

What are your opinions of the literature selections in LLATL?  That's one of my reservations with it.  I mean, I know that Boxcar Children is a much loved children's series, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it high quality literature, kwim?  

[poiema]

This year will really be a make it or break it year for LLATL in this house.

I know what you mean. That's how I feel about starting orange. There's something I really like about LLATL, but so far it hasn't been enough on its own.

[poiema]

Hunter,

 

What are your opinions of the literature selections in LLATL? That's one of my reservations with it. I mean, I know that Boxcar Children is a much loved children's series, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it high quality literature, kwim?

Not hunter, but I'm personally looking forward to ds reading Boxcar Children. He just finished reading the prequel and he loved it. The lit may not be considered high quality literature, but it's not twaddle either. We use ELTL and even though that uses high quality literature I don't always like those selections either. We have skipped a book or 2 and still do most of the lessons and copywork. No big deal. Just quickly looking through the orange book it looks like you could skip the Book Studies if you really wanted to and still do the lessons. It doesn't look like the actual lessons use much of the books, other than copywork. If I can't get a book from the library, I'll just skip that book study. I still think there's enough in there to make it worth it. At least I'm hopeful that there is. :)

[Hunter]

A little background on literature instruction in my life.

 

Understand that as I child I had very little explicit literature instruction, but I read and read and read on my own, everything and anything. With my boys, we were ultra-conservative Christian and most of their literature study was the KJV Bible and biographies. Some years there was not a single piece of fiction included in our curriculum. They read fiction on their own, but I didn't TEACH it.

 

Recently, a social worker I work with for my PTSD challenged me to reevaluate my education, and see it in a better light than I had been. All that fiction I read as child, taught me a LOT. Yes, the nonfiction and explicit 3R work that I managed to get was critical and more of it would have been good, but...what if I'd had a lot more explicit instruction, enough that it crowded out all those books I read?That is a sobering thought to me, and I'm pretty convinced I'd be in an allover worse state that I am now.

 

So, now moving forward to plan a curriculum for individual students looking to ME to guide them. I'm planning a lot of free reading, and then trying to plan explicit instruction that doesn't interfere with that free reading, and that provides the skills and background content to support the free reading.

 

I keep waffling from a primary goal of supporting free reading. It's hard to stay focused on that as I start over-scheduling what is supposed to be the support, not the focus. I think that's normal, but it's still where I need improvement. Thankfully interacting with students tends to refocus me, when they start bright-eyed telling me about a book they are reading.

 

I'm going to use LoL this year, one unit a week, 15 mins to one hour on a topic. That might seems a waste of the curriculum, but my goal is to provide enough explicit content knowledge to support the free reading and little more than that. Content helps a student to maneuver more safely around germs and electricity, and to vote with better understanding, so I'm not 100% oblivious to the need for content instruction, but really, if I can get them reading, than their free reading will hopefully expand that type of knowledge base more than any explicit instruction could. Free reading is where I learned those things.

 

So, for lit study, my focus is not for the literature instruction to BE the best books they read, but to provide the explicit instruction that ALLOWS them to choose and read the books that will be THE books that accomplish all the great things I want for them.

 

The lit studies in LLATL don't wow me, but they seem adequate to get the job done. They prepare students to read OTHER books with a minimum of stress, expense, and time spent on task. Literature study is art appreciation. I don't believe in trying to turn literature appreciation into a 3R. I like that LoL includes literature under art, and that our LLATL studies will be supplemented by those lessons. I've actually got more literature instruction than I want between the two, and may need to skip some.

 

LLATL isn't going to wow someone who teaches intensive art appreciation style literature analysis as a 3R and as the core of their language arts program. Literature is at the heart of LLATL, but it USES it more than APPRECIATES it.

 

LLATL and LoL are blue-collar curricula, compared to many other popular curricula. They just do not have the rigor and polish of a more elite education. I will support students seeking a more elite education, but I'm not going to inflict it on all students, or stress myself out by teaching above my own social class, resources, and educational background.

 

I was born into a top 1% family, but by the time I was 7, I was living in a welfare slum. I have a unique set of strengths and weaknesses from living in an amazingly diverse number of subcultures. As I continue my self-education, I find when I start trying to add too much elite work, I learn and accomplish less during those times. I'm not sure my place in life is to give myself and then others an elite style education. I waffle to start teaching fancier handwriting and adding more great books and a long list of "better" things, but...it gets hollow feeling quickly, and I find myself feeling weepier and overstretched and less connected to and appreciative of MY world.

 

This is my 5AM ramble after getting woken up by an intoxicated friend, who wanted to break their sobriety "to see what would happen". Sigh! LLATL orange looks like all I can handle and maybe more than I can handle right now. :lol:

[Hunter]

I spent two hours last night reading through LLATL Orange. I like it a lot for the student I plan to use it with. I'll need to reread Yellow today to give a comparison.

 

LLATL Orange includes an assignment to write a letter to request literature about the student's state. That is such a standard 1990's assignment. I forget which early homeschool book started that trend, but... it's part of my background and I'd never skip that. :lol: And I'm not sure that's dated at all. Not only do students love getting mail, but learning to research by as many methods as possible is advanced research not outdated research.

 

Orange is listed as a 4th grade book. I wouldn't want to use anything more rigorous than this with a 4th grade level student. This is above my personal 4th grade level standards, and I think of this as gifted 4th grade, by my antiquated and developmentally focused preY2K standards. I didn't study most of these topics until high-school or after.

 

A LOT of grammar is thrown at the student. Much will be repeated in later levels, so it doesn't need to be mastered yet, but I will need to keep track of the weekly topics and make a decided attempt to include reinforcement in daily life and other subjects. A student will not be able to master all the topics presented by just completing level Orange. That is not the intent of the curriculum and it won't happen. Mastery of the topics must include doing future levels and probably will need some outside reinforcement by the instructor. I, personally, would not want the book to include more review, and I certainly don't want more topics included! There is plenty of instruction to prepare me and the student for a profitable week of focus on the chosen topics of study applied to the complete curriculum.

 

I really like the Ben Franklin biography followed by the newspaper unit. I really like that the early introduction to the newspaper in the Boxcar children lessons.

 

As I said, I like the letter, followed by the state report.

 

I think the spelling is adequate to follow a properly taught phonics program, using the techniques explained in Ruth Beechick's 3R's. My plan is to use Alpha-Phonics instead of LLATL Blue and Red. I used LOE Essentials for a couple weeks, because it is an eBook and it was on my iPad when I needed to have SOMETHING to teach on the fly. I'd really like a one-room-schoolhouse spiral language arts program like I was trying to put together, but it hasn't been worth the time and stress and money of trying to put together. Just waiting meant LoL finally came out on the market. Maybe a spiral language arts is on the horizon. In the meantime, I'm just going to use Alpha-Phonics followed by LLATL. Life is too short to write my own curricula or to keep researching and struggling to cobble too many resources.

 

Maybe I'll feel differently in a couple days after I'm not sleep deprived from dealing with the intoxicated person, though. :lol: I reserve the right to change my mind and continue to torture myself and starve myself by spending my food money on yet more books I'm not going to use.

[Susie in MS]

Hunter, you mentioned two of the writing lessons: write for state info and the newspaper project. 

 

My dd sent off for the state info a few weeks ago, and was very excited to receive her packets. We are now ready for the research unit when we get to it. This was not only educational, but fun. We sent to two different tourism offices. One via snail mail, and the other via internet request. This way she got experience with both methods of request. She also got two diff packets. 

 

Like you, I like the way they placed the newspaper unit with Ben Franklin. I think it helps a child to connect with the project when they have a character to relate to from the story they have read.

 

Now it is my turn to ask: What is LoL? :)

 

As always, I enjoy hearing your thoughts on curricula. 

[Hunter]

Hunter, you mentioned two of the writing lessons: write for state info and the newspaper project. 

 

My dd sent off for the state info a few weeks ago, and was very excited to receive her packets. We are now ready for the research unit when we get to it. This was not only educational, but fun. We sent to two different tourism offices. One via snail mail, and the other via internet request. This way she got experience with both methods of request. She also got two diff packets. 

 

Like you, I like the way they placed the newspaper unit with Ben Franklin. I think it helps a child to connect with the project when they have a character to relate to from the story they have read.

 

Now it is my turn to ask: What is LoL? :)

 

As always, I enjoy hearing your thoughts on curricula. 

 

Layers of Learning is new.

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There is a 20% off coupon posted here.

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Layers of Learning is a 4 year history rotation, but it's not really so classical as most 4 year rotations. It's more like the ORIGINAL What Your Grader Needs to Know series. It's a secular product written by Christians just like What Your Grader Needs to Know. It has the same feel, but is updated and in eBook format.

 

I think LoL and LLATL will work okay together as a complete eBook curricula. I'm about to test it out. If I don't get distracted by something shinier in the meantime.

[mysticmomma]

Well that makes a lot more sense than what the Yellow does with the snippets coming from completely unrelated sources.

 

I've read some negative reviews of Orange...did you use Yellow as well? If so, is the format pretty much the same in Orange?

We didn't use yellow.