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CM Spread a Feast & Multum non Multa


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Have you considered Ambleside? I'm trying Y1 with my kids next year and I was SHOCKED by how slowly they have books scheduled to be read.  Quite the opposite of Sonlight, etc.  IMO, even if you don't like some of their book choices (I'm subbing out their history, for example) their amount of reading per year and pace of reading should allow time for more depth. Their FAQ on why they read fewer books, more slowly:  https://amblesideonline.org/FAQ.shtml#canchi

I agree. This struck me as well. By contrast, the reading lists are quite long. But you aren't expected to make it through all of it. 

 

Afa curriculum, as a secular schooler, I found it easier to learn the methods and implement them on my own than to follow a set curriculum. Simply Charlotte Mason is a good, flexible resource that offers as much or as little guidance as needed. 

 

For special skills areas like math, writing, penmanship, I choose what works best for my children's needs. I don't worry about whether or not it fits whichever approach neatly. The philosophy is more of an overarching feel with practical guidelines like short lessons and leaving them hungry. No matter what materials we choose, the lessons should be short, engaging, and effective. If the lessons are dragging on, the children are losing interest, or there is unnecessary busy work, something has to change.

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Is anyone familiar with

http://amongstlovelythings.com/

and her book Teaching from Rest?

http://amongstlovelythings.com/shop/

Is this someone that blends like the OP was wanting?

Mandy

 

I am familiar with that blog, it is a frequently visited page for me. Maybe, if someone has read the book, they could review it or let me / us know if it addresses the above concepts? I think you could spread a feast; do much, not many; or combine the two concepts and teach from a state of rest.

 

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I am familiar with that blog, it is a frequently visited page for me. Maybe, if someone has read the book, they could review it or let me / us know if it addresses the above concepts? I think you could spread a feast; do much, not many; or combine the two concepts and teach from a state of rest.

 

I just finished the book. It was fantastic.  I do think that Sarah is marrying the CM concept of "spread a feast" and what Dr Perrin has said about schole and multum non multa.  Dr Perrin actually did an interview with Sarah for the audio lecture component of her book that was fantastic.  I love what Sarah has been laying out in her blog lately with regard to how she is planning for her upcoming year.  This post in particular speaks to the conversation in this thread. http://amongstlovelythings.com/planning

 

The book is unabashedly Christian, and Christian with a Catholic bent (although I'm very Protestant and LOVED it), so if you're looking for suggestions from a secular point of view, this isn't it.  I found the book to be a treasure of inspiration and encouragement, though. 

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I just finished the book. It was fantastic.  I do think that Sarah is marrying the CM concept of "spread a feast" and what Dr Perrin has said about schole and multum non multa.  Dr Perrin actually did an interview with Sarah for the audio lecture component of her book that was fantastic.  I love what Sarah has been laying out in her blog lately with regard to how she is planning for her upcoming year.  This post in particular speaks to the conversation in this thread. http://amongstlovelythings.com/planning

 

The book is unabashedly Christian, and Christian with a Catholic bent (although I'm very Protestant and LOVED it), so if you're looking for suggestions from a secular point of view, this isn't it.  I found the book to be a treasure of inspiration and encouragement, though. 

 

Thank you for the review, and the link. That is a lovely series of posts, and the one about Rigor and Dilligence is a gem.

 

My take away from this discussion (and thank you all for participating and helping me) is that when I'm contemplating a feast I need to think long term, and when I contemplate depth I look at the year or semester or however far I want to break it down. I have a lot of other ideas as well, so thank you all!

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I skimmed the first page of the other thread. I am currently on a time-out from religion, so I will not be purchasing this book, but I wanted to link Melisa's planning video that Hunter posted in the other thread. This morning during the Mexico/ Netherlands game, I sent this same link to a woman in my local homeschool group. Then, while I was out today, I stopped by JoAnn's and let ds pick out a giant sheet of paper. He picked green. :)

 

This planning video is definitely worth the 9min video.

Mandy

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I skimmed the first page of the other thread. I am currently on a time-out from religion, so I will not be purchasing this book, but I wanted to link Melisa's planning video that Hunter posted in the other thread. This morning during the Mexico/ Netherlands game, I sent this same link to a woman in my local homeschool group. Then, while I was out today, I stopped by JoAnn's and let ds pick out a giant sheet of paper. He picked green. :)

 

This planning video is definitely worth the 9min video.

Mandy

 

Melisa is just a genius with that planner. Every time my life is a mess, never mind just education, I fold up a big piece of paper Melisa style, and it gets me back on track.

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How are those two ideas reconciled? Much, not many (deep, not wide) vs. spreading a feast of information. Is it possible?

 

I believe, based on much reading and discussion with others, that many of Charlotte Mason's ideas are part of a Classical Education, but the two ideas above seem to contradict each other.

 

 

Yes, it's possible.  

 

When CM talks of spreading a feast, she means this as opposed to force-feeding a curriculum.  Give a variety of the highest quality, in small portions, and allow the child to digest what they will.  This is the opposite of "Memorize these dates and regurgitate for the test."  This is why her focus is on narration, on telling back what the student gained from the lesson.

 

 

You don't need a whole shelf full of fairy tales.  Whittle down to the highest quality.  Same for myths and biographies and poetry, etc....

 

 

In practical application, I've found it overwhelming to *schedule* things like art and music.  I've come to the conclusion that in a modern homeschool family (with no nanny or housekeeper to help mom), those fine arts are best done as a part of the family culture.  IOW - if you want to introduce your children to the wonder of Beethoven, purchase a recording and listen to Beethoven in your home or car for your own pleasure. It's OK if your art and music selections are not approved by CM.  (She died before many wonderful artists lived.) Start this process with music that you loved growing up...those culturally-significant songs first. (What would you listen to if you weren't trying to *teach*...just *share*...???)  Purchase some inexpensive prints for hanging on a wall at home rather than *Doing* picture study as a school subject.  *DO* the same activities, but as family entertainment. Then allow time for pursuing practice on an instrument or drawing or painting, whatever interests the child.  

 

 

To understand how CM is Multum non Multa, you first must understand CM's approach to Masterly Inactivity.  CM is not LCC, but I do think she does Much not Many.

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http://firstheralds.com/charlotte-mason/charlotte-mason-education/

I like this for a concise explanation of CM. It has three short sections: I. Mason's Starting Point: Children Are Born Persons, II. Foundational Principles: Education is an Atmosphere, a Discipline, and a Life, III. Practical Applications of Mason's Philosophy. From this concise description, maybe it will be easier to see where you can overlay or blend multum non multa with CM.

HTH-

Mandy

CM's starting point and foundational principles. It is where I have derived my homeschool philosophy, but philosophy and application are two very different creatures. While I have never wavered in my CM philosophy, I have never had any problem using that philosophy as a lens for whatever subjects we choose or materials we use.

 

  

Yes, it's possible.  

 

When CM talks of spreading a feast, she means this as opposed to force-feeding a curriculum.  Give a variety of the highest quality, in small portions, and allow the child to digest what they will.  This is the opposite of "Memorize these dates and regurgitate for the test."  This is why her focus is on narration, on telling back what the student gained from the lesson.

 

 

You don't need a whole shelf full of fairy tales.  Whittle down to the highest quality.  Same for myths and biographies and poetry, etc....

 

 

In practical application, I've found it overwhelming to *schedule* things like art and music.  I've come to the conclusion that in a modern homeschool family (with no nanny or housekeeper to help mom), those fine arts are best done as a part of the family culture.  IOW - if you want to introduce your children to the wonder of Beethoven, purchase a recording and listen to Beethoven in your home or car for your own pleasure. It's OK if your art and music selections are not approved by CM.  (She died before many wonderful artists lived.) Start this process with music that you loved growing up...those culturally-significant songs first. (What would you listen to if you weren't trying to *teach*...just *share*...???)  Purchase some inexpensive prints for hanging on a wall at home rather than *Doing* picture study as a school subject.  *DO* the same activities, but as family entertainment. Then allow time for pursuing practice on an instrument or drawing or painting, whatever interests the child.  

 

 

To understand how CM is Multum non Multa, you first must understand CM's approach to Masterly Inactivity.  CM is not LCC, but I do think she does Much not Many.

I so agree!!!

 

In addition, because there are short lessons doesn't mean there are many subjects. You can have short lessons on many topics within a single subject that add up to one longer, deeper lesson. (Plz, don't twist that around. Try to see it in the light in which it was intended.) When studying math, you break it down into presentation, practice and exploration. Try to keep each component to an amount of time where when that component is over the child has not lost interest or gone into overload or become frustrated. You don't have to do all the components in a row. Do presentation and work a few problems together in the morning. Later in the day, allow the child time to complete independent work. Have a separate time that you play math games or do things like Penrose the Mathematical Cat. Alternatively, you could have times where you cover computation, another time for problem solving (thinking skills), and another for geometry/ time/ measurement. Think of things that will work for your child. You do not need to cover tons of little snippets of various subjects like sidebars in a book. You are breaking a subjects down into digestible components. In the math example, the total of the components supply a depth that perhaps a child sitting at a single lengthy math lesson wouldn't reach. (I realize some kids do well with intense, longer blocks, but many kids will hit overload or frustration with a block of math over an hour long, but can easily do three 20min lessons throughout the day.)

 

If you are keeping individual topic lessons short and keeping the formal schooling part of the day short, then it is after this time when you are living life and practicing masterly inactivity that your children who are respected as whole people have time to explore many different things. If you attempt to cover tons of subjects, then it doesn't matter how short the lessons are. Your formal school day will be long, and that certainly isn't CM.

 

HTH-

Mandy

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In addition, because there are short lessons doesn't mean there are many subjects. You can have short lessons on many topics within a single subject that add up to one longer, deeper lesson. (Plz, don't twist that around. Try to see it in the light in which it was intended.) When studying math, you break it down into presentation, practice and exploration. Try to keep each component to an amount of time where when that component is over the child has not lost interest or gone into overload or become frustrated. You don't have to do all the components in a row. Do presentation and work a few problems together in the morning. Later in the day, allow the child time to complete independent work. Have a separate time that you play math games or do things like Penrose the Mathematical Cat. Alternatively, you could have times where you cover computation, another time for problem solving (thinking skills), and another for geometry/ time/ measurement. Think of things that will work for your child. You do not need to cover tons of little snippets of various subjects like sidebars in a book. You are breaking a subjects down into digestible components. In the math example, the total of the components supply a depth that perhaps a child sitting at a single lengthy math lesson wouldn't reach. (I realize some kids do well with intense, longer blocks, but many kids will hit overload or frustration with a block of math over an hour long, but can easily do three 20min lessons throughout the day.)

 

 

 

Thank you. This does a great job of helping me see the break down.

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I think this discussion is helping me see one of the possible differences between CM and Classical.

 

I wonder if CM was concerned with intentionally teaching culture (ETA: as in high culture) to children that perhaps were considered by others too young or too poor to benefit from it. Consider the art and music appreciation, modern foreign language, ideas, handwork, the emphasis on atmosphere, etc.

 

Classical seems to assume that the student already has exposure to culture in the home (ETA: or other areas of life) and thus it is not a major emphasis in the curriculum. It was the privileged families that tended to receive a classical education, at least in recent history. 

 

Just thinking out loud here. . .

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I think this discussion is helping me see one of the possible differences between CM and Classical.

 

I wonder if CM was concerned with intentionally teaching culture to children that perhaps were considered by others too young or too poor to benefit from it. Consider the art and music appreciation, modern foreign language, ideas, handwork, the emphasis on atmosphere, etc.

 

Classical seems to assume that the student already has exposure to culture in the home and thus it is not a major emphasis in the curriculum. It was the privileged families that tended to receive a classical education, at least in recent history. 

 

Just thinking out loud here. . .

 

My younger son read a lot of biographies about the childhoods of the founding fathers and early Americans. Some of them learned Latin and Greek at school, but didn't have a lot of elite culture at home. School was Latin and Greek after the student learned to read in English. Students that didn't move onto Latin and Greek stopped going to school.

 

CM comes later and things were different by then, but in times just before that, school was LCC, no matter what was happening at home.

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CM's starting point and foundational principles. It is where I have derived my homeschool philosophy, but philosophy and application are two very different creatures. While I have never wavered in my CM philosophy, I have never had any problem using that philosophy as a lens for whatever subjects we choose or materials we use.

 

   I so agree!!!

 

In addition, because there are short lessons doesn't mean there are many subjects. You can have short lessons on many topics within a single subject that add up to one longer, deeper lesson. (Plz, don't twist that around. Try to see it in the light in which it was intended.) When studying math, you break it down into presentation, practice and exploration. Try to keep each component to an amount of time where when that component is over the child has not lost interest or gone into overload or become frustrated. You don't have to do all the components in a row. Do presentation and work a few problems together in the morning. Later in the day, allow the child time to complete independent work. Have a separate time that you play math games or do things like Penrose the Mathematical Cat. Alternatively, you could have times where you cover computation, another time for problem solving (thinking skills), and another for geometry/ time/ measurement. Think of things that will work for your child. You do not need to cover tons of little snippets of various subjects like sidebars in a book. You are breaking a subjects down into digestible components. In the math example, the total of the components supply a depth that perhaps a child sitting at a single lengthy math lesson wouldn't reach. (I realize some kids do well with intense, longer blocks, but many kids will hit overload or frustration with a block of math over an hour long, but can easily do three 20min lessons throughout the day.)

 

If you are keeping individual topic lessons short and keeping the formal schooling part of the day short, then it is after this time when you are living life and practicing masterly inactivity that your children who are respected as whole people have time to explore many different things. If you attempt to cover tons of subjects, then it doesn't matter how short the lessons are. Your formal school day will be long, and that certainly isn't CM.

 

HTH-

Mandy

 

Yes.  I teach like this too.  This is how I can use 14 different math currics on one kid and not have major burn-out.  (exaggerating...a little...LOL)  Seriously, I use one thing for spiral review, another thing for introducing concepts, and yet another for stretching the bounds of problem-solving stamina.  

 

 

In LA, copywork, narration, dictation, memorization, recitation, are all separated out into 15min chunks.  However, they are a whole.  The thing that keeps them *whole* and not scattered snippets is the Living Book or the Idea.  CM does not do the didactic lessons. When we try to apply CM to didactic lessons, we create a choppy education that has little retention.

 

 

When I was a music major, we learned music theory.  Before theory, we had to achieve a certain level of skill on an instrument to even be accepted into the music program.  (Whole-to-Parts...gotta DO first.)  Then we spent years studying the intricacies of every detail that goes into musical notation.   :banghead: (Parts-to-Whole)  Note:  this part of the program was only tolerated b/c all of us musicians *already* had a strong internal drive to learn the material, and we could immediately SEE it in what we DO (and love).  Plop a new piano student into those theory classes and they will RUN for the HILLS!!!! :gnorsi:    The music theory classes culminated with a semester of Analyzing pieces....and we are back to Whole-to-Parts...only this time we understand more parts and we understand them from every.possible.angle.  The semester of analyzing was the most enjoyable by far, but only b/c we withstood the semesters of hard, detailed work...and we only withstood those semesters b/c we started with a LOVE for the WHOLE.

 

 

I think CM meshes well with this process, whether she ever thought about this way or not.

 

 

The child falls in LOVE with a story from hearing it read aloud.  The characters become her playmates as she pretends.  The child copies the words, studying how to spell, how to construct a sentence, a paragraph.  There is meticulous work put into this.  It culminates with the ability to pick up a book and read and understand, to pick up a pen and write and communicate.   

 

Whole to Parts

 

Parts to Whole

 

Whole to Parts

 

 

 

The *PARTS* are explicitly taught!  One of my pet peeves about people who talk about CM is they talk like CM didn't teach spelling or grammar.  She did. She taught in context of the WHOLE.  She didn't choose to have kids copy a sentence from their science book to copy in order to facilitate memorization of the science fact.  (Setting Feast, not Force Feeding!)  Rather, she chose a sentence from their science book b/c it is meaningful to the student, and is an example of literary quality.  IOW - She pulls from the whole to teach the parts.

 

 

 

I think this discussion is helping me see one of the possible differences between CM and Classical.

 

I wonder if CM was concerned with intentionally teaching culture to children that perhaps were considered by others too young or too poor to benefit from it. Consider the art and music appreciation, modern foreign language, ideas, handwork, the emphasis on atmosphere, etc.

 

Classical seems to assume that the student already has exposure to culture in the home and thus it is not a major emphasis in the curriculum. It was the privileged families that tended to receive a classical education, at least in recent history. 

 

Just thinking out loud here. . .

 

 

I think this has some merit.  

 

 

Education had become completely didactic in her day.  Wealthy kids were sent off to boarding schools, away from their family culture.

 

CM had a knee-jerk reaction to the climate of her time.

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Okay, so I think I have an idea of which curricula you all might shy away from based on those comments. SO, tell me what describes a better one? What should it look like? Who does it closest/best (and what would you need to do to make it passable enough to use????)

 

Does that question make sense? What you are saying resonates for me, but I'm still to new to everything to have a handle on where to go from there WRT curriculum choices. (I would gladly take a PM if there's reservations about public statements here....)

 

 

Have you considered Ambleside? I'm trying Y1 with my kids next year and I was SHOCKED by how slowly they have books scheduled to be read.  Quite the opposite of Sonlight, etc.  IMO, even if you don't like some of their book choices (I'm subbing out their history, for example) their amount of reading per year and pace of reading should allow time for more depth. Their FAQ on why they read fewer books, more slowly:  https://amblesideonline.org/FAQ.shtml#canchi

 

We tried AO for a year but jumping into the middle of it with an older student (4th/5th grade) who reads/spells incredibly well and is a pretty strong narrator (at least as far as I could tell) was sort of frustrating without some kind of a mentor to tell me how to pick up there and move forward. Being new-to-homeschooling and new to CM as well wasn't a plan for success for us. Even with trying to read her methods I just kept feeling like I needed a "how-to" for things like narration/dictation by ages/stages. And then I looked over a friend's WWE/WWS. :001_wub:  But I will say the method of having books read more slowly frustrated my DD because it seemed like there were more of them at one time and she got tired of trying to keep the different story lines straight. She'd rather burn through one book (or just a few books) and immerse herself in it deeply. But at what point does the speed with which the student moves through the material make it "desultory?" I think I know what CM people would say in response to this but I'm going to put it out there for some feedback/discussion: It seems like reading just one chapter at a time would lead to more of a casual familiarity with the material rather than engaging the book in a focused manner (dropping in to say "Hi!" versus sitting down for a visit).

 

Curriculum for what subject?

 

HA! What, you can't read my mind?!?!? I knew what I was thinking of.... ;) At least I still think I remember - I'm looking at history and literature (and literature-based history) for next year. And isn't even TWTM at the rhetoric levels sort of more literature (or nonfiction?)-based history??? I was enamored with SL and then read all these concerns about relying upon historical fiction (and some inaccuracies, etc). So if I"m going back to square one, I was wondering if you guys had a "curriculum" in mind when you wrote this:

 

 

ElizaG, on 28 Jun 2014 - 6:24 PM, said:snapback.png

It's interesting that Newman uses the same word that Charlotte Mason does:  "desultory."   The message I get from both authors is that children are likely to be casual and superficial readers in their free time, but formal schooling is supposed to train them out of that.  I think this is a key piece of advice, and one that seems to be overlooked by some authors of literature-based homeschool curricula, including "CM-inspired" and "neo-classical" ones.   We've tried a couple of them, and found that there were too many different topics, too many lightweight or picture-heavy books, and just too many books in general.   "Desultory" is a pretty apt word for the experience.

 

 

Seeker of Schole, on 28 Jun 2014 - 7:14 PM, said:snapback.png

Interesting and the bolded is something that I struggle with. One of the things that I'm also working on is weeding out books that are good, but not great. There are so many book lists, and it is way too easy to do many (no depth) or to fail to spread a feast (for example - use only historical fiction, vs a variety).

 

I guess if you knew you wouldn't be having this dialogue. Duh. :) :)

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In LA, copywork, narration, dictation, memorization, recitation, are all separated out into 15min chunks.  However, they are a whole.  The thing that keeps them *whole* and not scattered snippets is the Living Book or the Idea.  CM does not do the didactic lessons. When we try to apply CM to didactic lessons, we create a choppy education that has little retention.

 

 

When I was a music major, we learned music theory.  Before theory, we had to achieve a certain level of skill on an instrument to even be accepted into the music program.  (Whole-to-Parts...gotta DO first.)  Then we spent years studying the intricacies of every detail that goes into musical notation.   :banghead: (Parts-to-Whole)  Note:  this part of the program was only tolerated b/c all of us musicians *already* had a strong internal drive to learn the material, and we could immediately SEE it in what we DO (and love).  Plop a new piano student into those theory classes and they will RUN for the HILLS!!!! :gnorsi:    The music theory classes culminated with a semester of Analyzing pieces....and we are back to Whole-to-Parts...only this time we understand more parts and we understand them from every.possible.angle.  The semester of analyzing was the most enjoyable by far, but only b/c we withstood the semesters of hard, detailed work...and we only withstood those semesters b/c we started with a LOVE for the WHOLE.

 

I think CM meshes well with this process, whether she ever thought about this way or not.

 

The child falls in LOVE with a story from hearing it read aloud.  The characters become her playmates as she pretends.  The child copies the words, studying how to spell, how to construct a sentence, a paragraph.  There is meticulous work put into this.  It culminates with the ability to pick up a book and read and understand, to pick up a pen and write and communicate.   

 

Whole to Parts

 

Parts to Whole

 

Whole to Parts

 

 

The *PARTS* are explicitly taught!  One of my pet peeves about people who talk about CM is they talk like CM didn't teach spelling or grammar.  She did. She taught in context of the WHOLE.  She didn't choose to have kids copy a sentence from their science book to copy in order to facilitate memorization of the science fact.  (Setting Feast, not Force Feeding!)  Rather, she chose a sentence from their science book b/c it is meaningful to the student, and is an example of literary quality.  IOW - She pulls from the whole to teach the parts.

 

 

Catching up on the thread finally :) 

I was JUST having a similar thought process about CM, and how it must be more whole-to-parts than I'm comfortable with (I'm VERY parts-to-whole). My next question is whether that learning style issue predicts parents' or students success (comfort?) in implementing CM?

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Catching up on the thread finally :)

I was JUST having a similar thought process about CM, and how it must be more whole-to-parts than I'm comfortable with (I'm VERY parts-to-whole). My next question is whether that learning style issue predicts parents' or students success (comfort?) in implementing CM?

 

 

 

CM does the parts-to-whole learning, but it's never divorced from context and there are seasons.  I think the seasons for learning things fall neatly in line with normal child development.  (...like when children are expected to write narrations...)

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  But I will say the method of having books read more slowly frustrated my DD because it seemed like there were more of them at one time and she got tired of trying to keep the different story lines straight. She'd rather burn through one book (or just a few books) and immerse herself in it deeply. But at what point does the speed with which the student moves through the material make it "desultory?" I think I know what CM people would say in response to this but I'm going to put it out there for some feedback/discussion: It seems like reading just one chapter at a time would lead to more of a casual familiarity with the material rather than engaging the book in a focused manner (dropping in to say "Hi!" versus sitting down for a visit).

 

 

Re Curriculum:

 

 

I guess if you knew you wouldn't be having this dialogue. Duh. :) :)

 

As far as too slow vs. too fast reading, I would think that it doesn't have to look the same for everyone. For some the one chapter a week pace will be perfect, for others it will be too slow. I would imagine that each person can find their happy place - reading at a comfortable pace, taking time to let things sink in and ideas to percolate; but not reading so slow as to lead to frustration. Sometimes that pace will depend on content.

 

As for curriculum - with history and literature I don't follow a curriculum. I put together my own - but that's my background and I'm picky. Math and science is where I struggle more..

 

For this conversation it's really about finding balance for me. I've had multiple kids to work with always - even after my oldest graduated I had two, this summer four to work with - but starting this fall it will only be my 1st grader. I'm trying hard to make sure I have a balance, since it will be very easy for me to overload our schedule with just one.

 

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