Help with high school sequencing/options, please

[Heather in WI]

Everyone says ‘start with the end in mind’ as you’re planning out high school, but I am struggling with the big picture as I plan for my first high school student. Ds is hoping to attend a service academy or an engineering school for college. Financially, we will need scholarships to make college a reality, so putting him into the running for that is a concern.

 

He took Latin I & II, Algebra & Geometry, and Integrated Physics/Chemistry in middle school.  His extracurriculars are/will be: Piano (taken since age 4), Boy Scouts (working on Eagle now), JV/Varsity Baseball, and possibly Civil Air Patrol (he is begging for us to let him try this out after baseball season is over).

 

This is what I have outlined so far:

 

9th:

History: American & British History I

Literature: American & British Lit II

English 9: Rod & Staff Grade 9 with the Lively Art of Writing

Foreign Language: Latin III

Math: Algebra II

Science: Biology

Elective: Computer Science (.5 credit) and Family Life Skills (.5 credit)

 

10th: 

History: ? (AP World History?)

English 10: Rod & Staff 10 with Write for College

Foreign Language: Russian I 

Math: Pre-Calculus

Science: Chemistry (would integrated Physics/chemistry be enough intro for AP Chem.? – ds really likes chemistry)

Elective: ? (AP Computer Science? Ds enjoys programming) 

Elective: ? (Any ideas? )

 

11th: 

History: US, British, & Modern History II

Literature: U.S., British & Modern Literature II

Foreign Language: Russian II

Math: Calculus (? Do strong math students go straight into AP Calculus? AB or BC?)

Science: Physics (again, would integrated physics/chemistry be enough intro for AP Physics?)

Elective ? (AP Stats?)

Elective? (Economics .5 and US Gov’t .5?)

 

12th:

History: ? (AP Comparative Government?)

English: ? (some kind of research writing class?)

Foreign Language: Russian III (can’t find this online anywhere … maybe dual enrolled?)

Math: ? (what after calculus? BC after AB in 11th?  I’m confused about math sequencing.)

Science: ? (AP Chem or Physics if not possible in earlier grade? Or classes at the university? If so, what do you take?)

Elective:? 

Elective?

 

Added up, this comes to:

 

History: 4 credits, 

English: 5 credits (include Lit here?), 

Foreign Language: 4 credits,

Math: 4 credits,

Science: 4 credits,

Electives: 7 credits

 

For 28 credits total. Does this sound about right for a student looking at competitive colleges? Too much? Not Enough?

 

If you dual enroll classes, how do you know what to take at the university?  I see people mention things like Discrete Math/Multivariable Calc/Linear Algebra & Diff. Equations as math options .... I don't even know what these things mean (even with Google-ing, LOL!) and/or how they fit into a strong math students sequence. 

 

How do you choose electives?  Most electives that pop out at me are humanities oriented ... what electives are helpful for STEM oriented students? (Or, on the contrary, is it good to give them as many humanities electives knowing engineering students won't have time for these types of classes in college?) Help! 

 

[8filltheheart]

For an engineering major, I would personally skip AP stats.   You can easily find out what the course sequences are for various majors by visiting college websites.    I would think it would depend what was covered in your integrated chem course as to whether or not he would be ready for AP chem.   My ds only took Kinetic Book's conceptual physics prior to dual enrolling in cal physics at a university and he had no issues.   (but he loves physics and he was reading/watching TC physics and astronomy lectures all the time.)

 

As far as scholarships, most are going to require high test scores. So don't neglect scheduling them!

 

Check out this thread on College Confidential about high merit aid schools: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1348012-automatic-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships.html#latest

 

FWIW, our experience is that attending a top ranking school for chemical engineering is unnecessary.   Our ds has a great, high paying job and he attended a small unknown state tech university.   He apparently is making more than some top school grads based on recent stats I have read.

 

 

ETA;  as far as electives, I would use them as an opportunity to explore areas of interest.  Our graduating sr took 3 yrs worth of astronomy, philosophy, and theology, all strong areas of interest.   Also, many schools want to see at least 1 cr in fine arts.  (depends on the school though.   Look at the admission criteria of possible schools.   Then check out their course sequences for intended major.)

 

 

[Heather in WI]

   8Fill, I appreciate you answering so much!

 

For an engineering major, I would personally skip AP stats.  

 

Oh! Ok. I was a psych major, so I'm really not familiar with what is helpful or not for STEM students. It's the only class that stood out to me as a math elective on the Pennsylvania Homeschoolers class offerings.  :laugh:

 

 

You can easily find out what the course sequences are for various majors by visiting college websites.   

 

Thanks! I've scoured admissions requirements (and put into an Excel spreadsheet, LOL!), but didn't think of doing this. 

 

 

I would think it would depend what was covered in your integrated chem course as to whether or not he would be ready for AP chem.   My ds only took Kinetic Book's conceptual physics prior to dual enrolling in cal physics at a university and he had no issues.   (but he loves physics and he was reading/watching TC physics and astronomy lectures all the time.)

 

Ds thought he loved physics best until he started chemistry.  (Physics was the first 3/4 of the course.) It's BJU Physical Science (4th edition). He did it online with BJU & has an A in the class.

 

As far as scholarships, most are going to require high test scores. So don't neglect scheduling them!

 

Yes! I printed out the scheduling thread from Lori! 

 

Check out this thread on College Confidential about high merit aid schools: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1348012-automatic-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships.html#latest

 

Thank you. I will. 

 

FWIW, our experience is that attending a top ranking school for chemical engineering is unnecessary.   Our ds has a great, high paying job and he attended a small unknown state tech university.   He apparently is making more than some top school grads based on recent stats I have read.

 

That is good to know!

 

 

ETA;  as far as electives, I would use them as an opportunity to explore areas of interest.  Our graduating sr took 3 yrs worth of astronomy, philosophy, and theology, all strong areas of interest.   Also, many schools want to see at least 1 cr in fine arts.  (depends on the school though.   Look at the admission criteria of possible schools.   Then check out their course sequences for intended major.)

 

I did wonder about the fine arts thing. I want to keep as many options open as possible for him. I didn't see it listed for the schools he's interested in right now, but would hate for it to trip him up four years from now.

 

[kiana]

Fine arts can be creative, though. Photography? things like that.

 

AP stats is probably not going to be useful. For an engineering major, I would say the most useful post-calculus classes would be multivariable calc and differential equations, as those are required in every engineering program I'm aware of.

 

9th: I wouldn't list english and lit separately. It is expected that high school english includes literature.

 

I'm not sure if AP CS would transfer but it's a great elective either way, engineers do a lot of programming now.

[Lavandula]

I don't really understand how you have the history. I'd do World, US, European, and an elective SS if you're not going to base it on time periods. The combined American/British seems a bit odd to me.

[mjbucks1]

For the sciences, if your ds really enjoyed chemistry I might try this sequence:

 

9th chemistry

10th AP Chemistry

11th AP Physics 1 (you do not need a prior course in physics to take AP Physics).

12th AP Physics 2 or AP Physics C (calc based) or class at the university

 

The College Board just revised the AP Physics tests. Now there will be two algebra based physics courses: AP Physics 1 and AP Physics 2.  I am not sure how this will work out.  Will students be able to take both AP Physics 1 & 2 in the same year?  There are 2 AP Physics calculus based courses which are Mechanics and Electricity/Magnetism, and currently many students take them both in one year.  Hopefully within the next year or two the sequnce will become more clear.  At any rate, this sequence would allow your son to have several advanced sciences before he graduates.  If you wanted to add in an on-level biology course, you could add that in to one of the elective spots.

 

As far as math goes, some students take AP Calculus AB first, followed by BC the following year.  But some take AP Calc BC right from the start.  This would then allow him to take a higher level math at the university level.

 

Also, AP Computer Programming is a relatively easy AP class, and many colleges do accept a score of 4 or 5 for credit.  Most college websites publish which classes they will take for AP credit.

 

I will add that my son is looking at majoring in computer programming/computer engineering.  He is taking AP classes for academic rigor and will most likely not accept credit for the classes that are within in his major (especially calculus).  Many more experienced moms on this board have advised against taking the calculus credit, and ds has agreed with this.

 

Also, if your son is taking Latin III, would he want to complete AP Latin.  If a student does well on the exam many colleges will award a good deal of credit.  I can also understand if he really wants to take Russion, though.

 

As far as electives go, logic is a great course to have before (or concurrently) with computer science.  My ds said it helped him a great deal with programming.

 

Also, I have found speech and debate to be invaluable.  We are fortunate to have a large homeschool speech and debate club, but I know some schools allow homeschoolers to participate.

 

Blessings,

Michelle

[8filltheheart]

I forgot to mention that dd has a great Russian tutor that teaches via Skype. PM me know if you want the name.

 

The cal thing should be made on an individual basis. My kids so far have not repeated math at the college level. They have been rock solid math students and have found no need to repeat cal. Shaky....different scenario.

[Heather in WI]

Fine arts can be creative, though. Photography? things like that.

 

AP stats is probably not going to be useful. For an engineering major, I would say the most useful post-calculus classes would be multivariable calc and differential equations, as those are required in every engineering program I'm aware of.

 

9th: I wouldn't list english and lit separately. It is expected that high school english includes literature.

 

I'm not sure if AP CS would transfer but it's a great elective either way, engineers do a lot of programming now.

 

I think he would really like a photography class. Thanks for the idea!

 

The Literature classes are online classes; the first covers the secondary sources for Omnibus III (9th) and the second covers the secondary sources for VI (11th). I just assumed I'd still have to do a separate writing/grammar program ... maybe I don't? Ds is very strong in grammar concepts & regularly aces complex diagramming, however his writing does need a little work.

 

 

I don't really understand how you have the history. I'd do World, US, European, and an elective SS if you're not going to base it on time periods. The combined American/British seems a bit odd to me.

 

The history classes are online classes.  The first covers the  primary sources for Omnibus III and the second covers the primary sources for Omnibus VI. I guess they could be called Modern History I and II, but since they're online classes, I thought I should call them on the transcript what they're called by the school. Maybe this is a mistake and I should go with "Modern History I" and "Modern History II"? 

[Heather in WI]

For the sciences, if your ds really enjoyed chemistry I might try this sequence:

 

9th chemistry

10th AP Chemistry

11th AP Physics 1 (you do not need a prior course in physics to take AP Physics).

12th AP Physics 2 or AP Physics C (calc based) or class at the university

 

Argh! I already signed him up for an online Pre-AP biology class for next year.  He doesn't have an interest in taking AP Bio, but wanted the challenge for what will probably be his last bio class.

 

The College Board just revised the AP Physics tests. Now there will be two algebra based physics courses: AP Physics 1 and AP Physics 2.  I am not sure how this will work out.  Will students be able to take both AP Physics 1 & 2 in the same year?  There are 2 AP Physics calculus based courses which are Mechanics and Electricity/Magnetism, and currently many students take them both in one year.  Hopefully within the next year or two the sequnce will become more clear.  At any rate, this sequence would allow your son to have several advanced sciences before he graduates.  If you wanted to add in an on-level biology course, you could add that in to one of the elective spots.

 

I think he would really like the idea of having several advanced sciences.  I wonder how we could schedule them in ... maybe Chemistry & AP Physics I in 10th, then AP Chem & AP Physics II in 11th, then AP Physics C in 12th?

 

As far as math goes, some students take AP Calculus AB first, followed by BC the following year.  But some take AP Calc BC right from the start.  This would then allow him to take a higher level math at the university level.

 

This is not helpful.  :lol:  How do you know which one to have your child take? Is there a pre-test? (Lol!) 

 

Also, AP Computer Programming is a relatively easy AP class, and many colleges do accept a score of 4 or 5 for credit.  Most college websites publish which classes they will take for AP credit.

 

I took 8Fill's advice and checked out ds's dream college. Comp Sci is a required core course (along with Statistics, LOL!!!), and both classes accept a 4/5 on the AP for validation. 

 

I will add that my son is looking at majoring in computer programming/computer engineering.  He is taking AP classes for academic rigor and will most likely not accept credit for the classes that are within in his major (especially calculus).  Many more experienced moms on this board have advised against taking the calculus credit, and ds has agreed with this.

 

I also saw that ds's dream college accepts a 4/5 in Calculus AB for the first required calc. class and 4/5 in Calculus BC for the second required Calc. class. It looks like there is a special Calc III class for freshman who place into it. This isn't a good idea? Another one of ds's colleges picks doesn't accept hardly any AP. Either way is fine with me honestly. 

 

Also, if your son is taking Latin III, would he want to complete AP Latin.  If a student does well on the exam many colleges will award a good deal of credit.  I can also understand if he really wants to take Russion, though.

 

We talked about it and he's leaving this open as a possibility at this point. If he doesn't want to continue to AP Latin, I thought about having him take the SAT-II Latin test before moving on to Russian. I guess we'll play that one by ear. 

 

As far as electives go, logic is a great course to have before (or concurrently) with computer science.  My ds said it helped him a great deal with programming.

 

He's had logic the last two years - two semesters of formal and two of informal. 

 

Also, I have found speech and debate to be invaluable.  We are fortunate to have a large homeschool speech and debate club, but I know some schools allow homeschoolers to participate.

 

We have a very active speech and debate homeschool class/team here. A good friend is involved and trying to get us involved!  :laugh: 

 

Thank you so much, Michelle. I really appreciate your thoughtful post!

[Heather in WI]

I forgot to mention that dd has a great Russian tutor that teaches via Skype. PM me know if you want the name.

 

The cal thing should be made on an individual basis. My kids so far have not repeated math at the college level. They have been rock solid math students and have found no need to repeat cal. Shaky....different scenario.

 

I PM'd you. :-)

 

Ds is a rock solid math student so far. He reads math textbooks for fun.  :lol:  

[Lavandula]

The history classes are online classes.  The first covers the  primary sources for Omnibus III and the second covers the primary sources for Omnibus VI. I guess they could be called Modern History I and II, but since they're online classes, I thought I should call them on the transcript what they're called by the school. Maybe this is a mistake and I should go with "Modern History I" and "Modern History II"? 

 

Oh, I'd probably call it what the school calls it. The title alone just seemed a bit odd to me, but with course descriptions and all it should be fine. 

[kiana]

If there's a special cal 3 class for freshmen who place into it, it probably indicates that repetition is not necessary for strong math students.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

If it were me...I wouldn't list literature and English as separate classes unless English was being learned as a foreign language.  It is my understanding that in a standard high school course those elements would be mixed.  If the literature class is online and you want that to match the online course I would come up with a course title that reflects the writing aspect of the course not just call it English 9. 

 

If his service academy interests are based in aviation and the Air Force Academy is high on his list...I would opt for 4 years of Russian rather than more Latin.  It is my understanding that the service academies have a preference for modern languages in high school but that Air Force is insistent upon it while the others still include ancient languages as an option.  There are however some academy experts here on the board so hopefully they will chime in on this issue with better info than I have.

 

And yes, after Pre-Calc straight into AP Calc.  Be sure your pre-calc includes trigonometry.

 

I would not use AP Comparative Government for your History/Social Studies credit in 12th.  I think that may look like you are slacking off senior year.  From what I can tell it is typically taught in 1 semester as a 1/2 credit class.  I think I would choose one of the AP History options that year.

 

If he is a strong musician perhaps he would like to look at the AP Music Theory class/exam.  That would add a fine arts elective.

[kiana]

Ah, now that I noticed, he needs literature for 10th grade.

 

As far as AP comparative government, isn't AP us government also frequently taught as a one semester class? Pairing them would make a great senior elective, especially for someone who's planning on serving his country.

[Heather in WI]

If it were me...I wouldn't list literature and English as separate classes unless English was being learned as a foreign language.  It is my understanding that in a standard high school course those elements would be mixed.  If the literature class is online and you want that to match the online course I would come up with a course title that reflects the writing aspect of the course not just call it English 9. 

 

English is our first language. :-) This makes sense. How about "Fundamentals of Expository Writing" instead? I saw that as a course title online. 

 

If his service academy interests are based in aviation and the Air Force Academy is high on his list...I would opt for 4 years of Russian rather than more Latin.  It is my understanding that the service academies have a preference for modern languages in high school but that Air Force is insistent upon it while the others still include ancient languages as an option.  There are however some academy experts here on the board so hopefully they will chime in on this issue with better info than I have.

 

It's the #1 spot on his list. (But, ds has a disqualification for his eye sight. It's correctable to 20/20 and he could get a waiver, but I don't want him to put all his eggs in one basket.)  Hmmn. I really wanted to get that last year of Latin in. He's studied it for so long that I wanted to get it on his transcript & get the SAT II score for it.  Maybe his senior year he could dual enroll Russian at the local university to get III and IV in?

 

And yes, after Pre-Calc straight into AP Calc.  Be sure your pre-calc includes trigonometry.

 

Thank you for this! 

 

I would not use AP Comparative Government for your History/Social Studies credit in 12th.  I think that may look like you are slacking off senior year.  From what I can tell it is typically taught in 1 semester as a 1/2 credit class.  I think I would choose one of the AP History options that year.

 

Good to know. We don't want to give that impression!

 

If he is a strong musician perhaps he would like to look at the AP Music Theory class/exam.  That would add a fine arts elective.

 

He won't be a music major in college, but he's pretty strong. I hadn't even considered this! We will check it out. 

 

 

Ah, now that I noticed, he needs literature for 10th grade.

 

Maybe we could fold in world lit? That would go along with the AP World History. I would love to go through world lit with him myself. :-)

 

As far as AP comparative government, isn't AP us government also frequently taught as a one semester class? Pairing them would make a great senior elective, especially for someone who's planning on serving his country.

 

​Great idea! Will look at this. 

 

Thank you so much!

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I would exercise care in giving multiple credits for English--ie 1 for lit and 1 for composition skills--  especially in multiple years.

 

Hopefully some of our service academy experts will chime in on the foreign language issue and some folks with more experience on the English issue.

 

I think the AP Music class might give a nice well rounded aspect to high school.  Some universities do look for a fine arts credit in high school.

 

Another thought is one of the AP English courses for senior year.

[kiana]

I would exercise care in giving multiple credits for English--ie 1 for lit and 1 for composition skills--  especially in multiple years.

 

Yes. Usually "english" includes both -- I'd only give one full credit for english and lit in two cases:

i) The student genuinely did enough work for more than one credit of literature.

 

ii) The student took a course like speech or AP comp which usually does not have a significant literature component

 

If you need to transcript them separately because the literature is taken with an external provider, I'd give only half a credit for the grammar + comp section. I'd prefer to combine them into "english 9" though.

 

[Heather in WI]

I would exercise care in giving multiple credits for English--ie 1 for lit and 1 for composition skills--  especially in multiple years.

 

I think the AP Music class might give a nice well rounded aspect to high school.  Some universities do look for a fine arts credit in high school.

 

Another thought is one of the AP English courses for senior year.

 

 

Yes. Usually "english" includes both -- I'd only give one full credit for english and lit in two cases:

i) The student genuinely did enough work for more than one credit of literature.

 

ii) The student took a course like speech or AP comp which usually does not have a significant literature component

 

If you need to transcript them separately because the literature is taken with an external provider, I'd give only half a credit for the grammar + comp section. I'd prefer to combine them into "english 9" though.

 

 

Thank you, both.  I don't want even the appearance of padding the transcript. I'll rework it so that it's only 1 credit per yer.