XP: need help with 7th-10th grade science sequence (prerequisite maths, as well)

[IfIOnly]

My oldest will be in 6th grade next year, and I need to sort this out ASAP!  

 

 

I'm considering:

 

 

7 - pre-algebra/ general science 

 

8 - algebra 1/ physical science

 

9 - algebra 2/ biology

 

10 - geometry/ chemistry

 

11- dual enrollment at local CC - I do not want to be doing any homeschooling with him at this point.  

 

12 - dual enrollment - ditto!

 

 

OR

 

 

6-   general science

 

7 - pre-algebra/ physical science

 

8 - algebra 1/ biology

 

9 - algebra 2/ chemistry

 

10 - geometry/ physics

 

11- dual enrollment at local CC - Just to reiterate, I do not want to be doing any homeschooling with him at this point.  

 

12 - dual enrollment - ditto

 

 

We are will be using Apologia science textbooks. I know they are not AP and ds won't be able to CLEP unless he does the Apologia advanced courses.  If we wanted to do the advanced courses in biology, chemistry, and physics how would that need to be scheduled in grades 7-10 in regards to maths?  So, can we just do the advanced biology in 9th and advanced chemistry in 10th successfully with the math he would have covered?  Or, what about the 8/AP biology, 9/ AP chemistry/ 10/ AP physics sequence?

 

By the way we use TT and from what I understand Alg. 1 and 2 actually make up just alg. 1 compared to most curricula.  Any other sequence (including maths) that would work better?

 

 

Thoughts?  Help!

 

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

In order for Apologia to be AP level you have to complete both the regular text and the advanced text. I do not know if that can realistically be done in one year without meltdown.

 

"This chemistry course [Advanced Chemistry] is designed to be taken after a college-preparatory chemistry course such as Exploring Creation with Chemistry. When both courses are taken, the student is prepared to take the AP (advanced placement) or CLEP (College Level Examination Program) chemistry exam." - From Apologia website.

 

The AP bio test also has quite a good bit of chemistry so it is recommended that regular bio and chem both be taken before AP Bio. That is not to say you have to, just that is the recommendation. If you choose the second plan above, he could take the AP classes or tests his junior year, but that is difficult with dual enrollment.

 

I am running into this issue with my son right now in planning. He will dual enroll, so I have to consider all the homeschooling done by tenth grade. However, for us, the math prerequisites are not an issue. The way we are handling it is to have middle school be the first run of chemistry, physics, bio, and environmental science. No general science or physical science. He will start AP classes 9th grade with two full years of AP. If he feels good about it, possibllyAP Environmental science in 8th. Our CC also accepts AP credits so it lightens his load for DE and allows him to fit one more AP in during his junior year. Our local CC is not really the greatest school so he will not be taking AP Spanish there. CC allows for credits and Ds to learn the college ropes in a non taxing academic setting.

 

So our plan looks like this:

6th - Algebra based physics

7th - Molecular Biology

8th - Environmental Chemistry

9th - AP Biology

10th - AP Chemistry

11th - DE in Calculus based physics

 

It do not know if that helps. You could always do conceptual physics and chem earlier to eliminate the math component. I do not know if that would ease the later jump into AP classes or not.

[IfIOnly]

EndofOrdinary, your reply is so helpful.  Thank you!  Yes those dual enrollment classes are a blessing in many ways, but it makes things more challenging beforehand in others. I'm trying to figure this out and really appreciate you sharing your plan.   

 

So, we could skip general and physical science and do the Apologia intro. physics, biology, and chemistry in 6, 7, 8 and do the AP classes in 9, 10, and 11.  Then since ds will hopefully be able to CLP Bio. and Chem. and therefore have a lighter junior year, he could do the Apologia physics his 11th grade year.  Got it!

 

 

Does anyone know what maths would better to have finished by AP biology, chemistry, and physics?  I'm not sure.  I'm also considering having ds do two levels of math next year (this would be easy for him) so that he would finish pre-calc by his junior year.  Would that be better prep for AP science classes or have advantages for dual enrollment/college classes/acquiring an associates degree when finished with 12th grade or so?

[IfIOnly]

Oops, I forgot!  Do the topics in general and physical science get repeated in bio., chem., and physics?

[kiana]

You won't have the math to do Apologia's first chemistry/physics courses in 7th/8th grades as both of them require algebra.

 

Also, these *are* high school level courses. Unless your child really is ready for high school at 11, they are probably not the best middle school courses.

 

ETA: EndofOrdinary's child is significantly advanced (I believe he's doing pre-algebra in 4th, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) so his plan is ambitious but realistic.

 

That doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good idea for your child to emulate it. Doing a high school science course in 8th grade would be realistic -- but it's rare for a child to be ready for high school science 2 years before they're ready for high school math.

[IfIOnly]

You won't have the math to do Apologia's first chemistry/physics courses in 7th/8th grades as both of them require algebra.

 

Also, these *are* high school level courses. Unless your child really is ready for high school at 11, they are probably not the best middle school courses.

 

 

Okay, so biology would need to be done first, and I'd have to ds do two years of math next year it looks like.  I know there would need to be a lot of hand holding.  TBH, DH will be doing the sciences with our dc past elementary age.  I'm not sure how Apologia's intro. courses of chem/physics will for even with help from dh in jr. high.  I need to do more homework.  It is important to us that our dc graduate with an associates by the time they would have graduated high school or so.  For one, we know it will be virtually free for them.  We don't have much money to help them with college so dual enrollment is going to be our major contribution to their higher education.  We know lots of families whose dc have done so.  Dual enrollment is really popular here.  CLEPing our of Chem and Physics isn't necessary, but I'd rather have them have a more rigorous jr. high/ high school experience so that their college experience isn't too overwhelming.  We're just fumbling along as we go here.  Hopefully if our kids homeschool their children that they'll be much more confident and knowledgeable about all of this stuff.  

[IfIOnly]

Okay, so biology would need to be done first, and I'd have to ds do two years of math next year it looks like.  I know there would need to be a lot of hand holding.  TBH, DH will be doing the sciences with our dc past elementary age.  I'm not sure how Apologia's intro. courses of chem/physics will for even with help from dh in jr. high.  I need to do more homework.  It is important to us that our dc graduate with an associates by the time they would have graduated high school or so.  For one, we know it will be virtually free for them.  We don't have much money to help them with college so dual enrollment is going to be our major contribution to their higher education.  We know lots of families whose dc have done so.  Dual enrollment is really popular here.  CLEPing our of Chem and Physics isn't necessary, but I'd rather have them have a more rigorous jr. high/ high school experience so that their college experience isn't too overwhelming.  We're just fumbling along as we go here.  Hopefully if our kids homeschool their children that they'll be much more confident and knowledgeable about all of this stuff.  

 

Okay, so if ds did pre-algebra in 6th and intro. biology then he would be doing algebra in 7th and wouldn't have the math to do intro. chem or physics, it sounds like.  So, that doesn't sound like a workable plan at the moment.  

[kiana]

Okay, so biology would need to be done first, and I'd have to ds do two years of math next year it looks like.  I know there would need to be a lot of hand holding.  TBH, DH will be doing the sciences with our dc past elementary age.  I'm not sure how Apologia's intro. courses of chem/physics will for even with help from dh in jr. high.  I need to do more homework.  It is important to us that our dc graduate with an associates by the time they would have graduated high school or so.  For one, we know it will be virtually free for them.  We don't have much money to help them with college so dual enrollment is going to be our major contribution to their higher education.  We know lots of families whose dc have done so.  Dual enrollment is really popular here.  CLEPing our of Chem and Physics isn't necessary, but I'd rather have them have a more rigorous jr. high/ high school experience so that their college experience isn't too overwhelming.  We're just fumbling along as we go here.  Hopefully if our kids homeschool their children that they'll be much more confident and knowledgeable about all of this stuff.  

 

Honestly I think your second plan would prepare them reasonably well for dual enrollment in 10th grade. After alg 2 they should be able to place into college algebra (by reviewing if necessary) and precalc, leaving senior year for calculus if they desire a STEM major. They should also be ready to do any of the standard science sequences (except physics, even algebra-based physics usually requires trigonometry).

 

If you're going to try APs before 11th grade I'd strongly recommend first trying the ones that cover only a single semester of college, such as geography, psychology, environmental science -- rather than the ones

[Bristayl]

One way to cover both the regular and advanced Apologia biology and chemistry in one year each would be to use DIVE Science--he has a syllabus that includes both, plus an additional "CLEP Professor" to help prepare for the exams.

[EndOfOrdinary]

My son is ahead.  He started PreA in third grade and AoPS PreA in fourth.  He is going through Apologia Chemistry in 4th/5th (it will take two years to make sure he really understands it). I figured that if the plan was to have a student do three AP science courses before 11th grade the student is pretty darn accelerated.  Most people chose either AP or DE for normally tracked kids, whereas the OP wanted to have a track for 3 AP sciences AND Dual Enrollment.  I don't know of any normal tracks that do that, but I could be wrong.

 

Apologia marks what most consider their high school courses as "Junior/Senior high" for the very reason that you run through the traditionally high school texts in middle school and the advanced ones in high school for AP.  They can be used for both middle or high school.  The other Apologia courses most use for middle are actually marked Elementary by the company.  As far as we have come to, you only basic linear equations to handle the Chemistry text.  No quadratics.  However, you do need a strong grasp on the concepts of the math.  They involved active problem solving, not just plug and chug.  I do not know about Physics text as we have not used it yet.  Your middle schooler has to want to learn the sciences.  They are not "discovery" or "explore" books; they are rather subject intense.

[chiguirre]

I'm planning a similar path for Trinqueta.

 

6th grade: Discovering Math (Singapore) 7 and Physical Science using Elemental Science's online class:

 

http://www.elementalscience.com/physical-science-live-online-course/

 

7th grade: DM 8 and Elemental Science biology (if that falls through, I'll use Kolbe's course plans)

 

8th grade: DM 9 and an online regular chemistry course (possibly Landry Academy which uses Spectrum Chemistry or ES if they offer a class or GA PBS's free videos combined with Virtual Homeschool Group's Apologia Chemistry class--but I'd have to preview the book first and I doubt it will pass muster for us)

 

9th grade: DM 10/Additional Mathematics 1 and algebra-based physics

 

10th grade: Additional Mathematics 2 and AP Bio or Chem or Env. Sci.

 

11th grade: DE Calc and DE Bio or Chem or whatever T wants that fulfills UT and TAMU general science reqs

 

12th grade: DE again depending on T's prospective major

 

T's bright but not off-the-charts gifted and she's good at math. The IPC class is often an 8th grade class and bio's a 9th grade class, so I don't think those are a huge stretch compared to the middle science books she used this year. The most important consideration for science is the math prerequisite and both IPC and bio only ask for algebra 1 concurrent.

[kiana]

Apologia marks what most consider their high school courses as "Junior/Senior high" for the very reason that you run through the traditionally high school texts in middle school and the advanced ones in high school for AP.  They can be used for both middle or high school.  The other Apologia courses most use for middle are actually marked Elementary by the company.  As far as we have come to, you only basic linear equations to handle the Chemistry text.  No quadratics.  However, you do need a strong grasp on the concepts of the math.  They involved active problem solving, not just plug and chug.  I do not know about Physics text as we have not used it yet.  Your middle schooler has to want to learn the sciences.  They are not "discovery" or "explore" books; they are rather subject intense.

 

I understood that they're marked as jr/sr high because you begin with general science and physical science in jr high, and that to complete AP courses students would need to double-up in science -- i.e. take two courses in the same year. This is totally doable and many PS students do this. A sample schedule for such a student who wants to complete all AP courses could look like:

 

9th: bio

10th: chem, adv bio

11th: phys, adv chem

12th: adv phys

 

I have never seen a website that indicated that the biology, chemistry, and physics courses were considered middle school level. They are supposed to follow either apologia's general/physical science or another middle school science. An accelerated student who plans to complete bio/chem/phys in 6th grade should be in algebra by 6th.

 

Most students will not be ready for chemistry after only pre-algebra, even if the only math required is linear equations. Their problem-solving skills are just not there yet -- they have not understood the math thoroughly enough to be able to apply it in novel equations.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I have never seen a website that indicated that the biology, chemistry, and physics courses were considered middle school level. They are supposed to follow either apologia's general/physical science or another middle school science. An accelerated student who plans to complete bio/chem/phys in 6th grade should be in algebra by 6th.

 

Most students will not be ready for chemistry after only pre-algebra, even if the only math required is linear equations. Their problem-solving skills are just not there yet -- they have not understood the math thoroughly enough to be able to apply it in novel equations.

I called Apologia and actually asked them last year. One of the reasons I decided on their text was due to the discussions I had with the sales rep and how well Apologia provided the repeated spiral of information which built upon itself. It is very WTM in that way. The program does not have to be used this way, but it was thoughtfully designed enough to have multiple different tracks to maximize its client base.

 

Having been a public school math and science teacher, I have not found it to be the case that most sixth graders could not handle the concepts of algebra with their problem solving. I have often found just the opposite. Most are dying to be intrigued and challenged. Lego robotics, Mathletics, and Science Olympiad have such extreme middle school followings for this very reason. Middle schoolers are sponges just screaming to let their creative energy out with problem solving. Most of the time we just underestimate them, box them, and dismissively chalk their frustrated emotions up to hormones.