any regrets about adding long ee sound to "i" and "y"

[lacell]

For those who have chosen to teach the long ee sound as one of the sounds "i" or "y" can make, such as in AAS, LOE, etc., have you had any regrets about doing so? Do you have older children who have always learned that way, and has it become a problem in spelling difficult, multi-syllable words? Have any of your kids competed successfully in spelling bees? Sorry about asking this in the other forum also. I am new to the forums and realized this might be a better place to post this.

[Butter]

I'm not sure why one would regret teaching the ee sound for y and i.  It's a sound that i and y make sometimes.  That would be like asking if you regret teaching that c sometimes says /s/.  It's never been an issue because, well, it's a valid sound.  None of my kids have ever done spelling bees, but my 5 year is able to spell both funny and sky, both of which have y's, but those y's make different sounds.

[Farrar]

There are tons of letters - especially vowels - that make multiple sounds.  And many sounds, again, especially vowel sounds, that have multiple ways to spell the sound.  I like the way AAS has kids sort those sounds (such as the steps that have kids figure out which spelling of ee or er to use in a word).  If you're going to learn to spell you have to learn that.  I guess I don't get how one could regret it.

[lacell]

The reason I am asking if that I remember reading a thread on this topic a while back, and someone said she regretted it but didn't state why. Now I can't find the thread. Also, SWR and Spalding advocates seem to imply that teaching that "i" and "y" say "ee" (as opposed to doing "think to spell" by saying "happi", etc. when dictating spelling) would causing spelling problems or problems with plural endings. Once you teach it, it's hard to take back.

 

[Farrar]

Well, Ellie would know the Spalding approach, but in AAS it's just taught as a new rule.  All the rules for changing the y to i are taught.  I don't know how you could get around doing that.  Do you mean pronouncing the word by it's spelling when you say "happi"?  That's an AAS trick, but since none of the sounds in happy are jumbled together (like "interest") and it's not a rule breaker with unexpected silent letters or letters saying sounds they don't usually make (like "Wednesday") that's not a trick that AAS would probably suggest for that particular word.

[Tracy]

We are just finishing our 4th year of SWR.  I have always taught I and Y the way SWR says to, just to make sure that I didn't mess something up.  Now that we are nearing the end, I have mixed feelings about it. 

 

I agree with Ms. Sanseri that doing it that way emphasizes the connection between I and Y, and it simplifies dictation.  That is, if I say a short I sound at the end of a word, my child knows without further explanation that it is spelled with a Y. 

 

OTOH, so many of our words come from Latin, and in Latin, I/Y sounds like a long E.  I think it is a mistake to ignore this connection with Latin.  Having a background in Spanish, I feel it is often much easier to spell an English word when I know its Spanish cognate.  Likewise, if you plan on having your student study Latin, or any Latin language for that matter, I think it is a good thing start to point out this connection as soon as it comes up.  So when I am teaching SWR, I go by the book, but I mention these Latin connections, and I think it helps my student to understand the spelling better.

 

Although I largely following the program, one thing I cannot do is teach that EY says /i/ (as in honey, monkey, valley, donkey), when one of that phonogram's sounds is /E/.  It is way too confusing.  They are trying to be consistent with the I/Y issue, but the connection is too tenuous for me. 

 

I really don't think that it matters that much which way you do it.  My dd9 wants to understand why things are spelled the way they are.  All of the Spalding programs give a very good foundation.  I tweak it a little to suit our needs. 

[lacell]

We are just finishing our 4th year of SWR.  I have always taught I and Y the way SWR says to, just to make sure that I didn't mess something up.  Now that we are nearing the end, I have mixed feelings about it. 

 

I agree with Ms. Sanseri that doing it that way emphasizes the connection between I and Y, and it simplifies dictation.  That is, if I say a short I sound at the end of a word, my child knows without further explanation that it is spelled with a Y. 

 

OTOH, so many of our words come from Latin, and in Latin, I/Y sounds like a long E.  I think it is a mistake to ignore this connection with Latin.  Having a background in Spanish, I feel it is often much easier to spell an English word when I know its Spanish cognate.  Likewise, if you plan on having your student study Latin, or any Latin language for that matter, I think it is a good thing start to point out this connection as soon as it comes up.  So when I am teaching SWR, I go by the book, but I mention these Latin connections, and I think it helps my student to understand the spelling better.

 

Although I largely following the program, one thing I cannot do is teach that EY says /i/ (as in honey, monkey, valley, donkey), when one of that phonogram's sounds is /E/.  It is way too confusing.  They are trying to be consistent with the I/Y issue, but the connection is too tenuous for me. 

 

I really don't think that it matters that much which way you do it.  My dd9 wants to understand why things are spelled the way they are.  All of the Spalding programs give a very good foundation.  I tweak it a little to suit our needs. 

 

Thanks. That is super helpful - just the kind of firsthand experience I was seeking. Just out of curiosity, how would the child know to spell donkey with "ey" instead of just "y" like baby?

 

[8filltheheart]

Thanks. That is super helpful - just the kind of firsthand experience I was seeking. Just out of curiosity, how would the child know to spell donkey with "ey" instead of just "y" like baby?

 

I have responded to your other thread, but you simply can NOT know the answers to the above types of questions w/o simply having memorized the correct phonogram choice.   It is what I was describing my other response.   You cannot rule your way into correct spelling.   They eventually have to remember the correct spelling.

 

There are no rules for why:

 

fruit vs. froot  (ui and oo both say /oo/ in the middle of a word and keep in mind that you spell moot with oo and suit with ui.......)

laugh vs. laff (gaff??)

bought vs. baught (considering caught)

bird vs burd (but we do spell curd)

glue vs. glew (but why drew?)

boat vs bote (but tote)

keep vs keap (reap??)

freight vs. frait (trait??)

rhyme vs rhime (but time)

judgment vs. judgement (g should never say j w/o an i,e, or y)

 

I could go on all day.   I have seen every spelling imaginable.   I used WRTR with my oldest for 5 yrs b/c I was convinced eventually his spelling would have to improve.  I was wrong.  And it was also the worst teaching reading experience I had (I combined WRTR w/100 EZ Lessons).   I switched with my #2 child to Sing, Spell, Read, Write and teaching reading became fun.   I have used it with all of my other kids.

 

As far as what spelling program, OhE on the other thread was absolutely correct.  It depends on the needs of the child.   My 2nd child almost has perfect photograph memory.   He has never misspelled a word that I can remember.   How To Teach Spelling is a program that is rule based with spiraled dictation that has worked for my typical easy to learn how to spell kids.   My dyslexics, otoh, OG approaches have been a disaster (funny considering they are supposed to be good for dyslexics.)  Apples and Pears and SRA Spelling through Morphographs were the best choices.   It really boils down to what gets them to imprint the correct spelling into their long term memory.

 

Anyway, suffice it to say that it is a complete misunderstanding of English spelling and phonics rules to assume if you know the rules you will be able to decide how to spell.   It just doesn't work that way.   As I wrote in the other post, for decoding, phonics is highly effective.   For spelling, phonograms help narrow the options but in the end they just have to know.

[Tanikit]

As far as spelling goes my DD knows that in multisyllable words that end in the EE sound, the majority end in Y - and she very seldom has a problem. The most common word that ends in IE saying EE at the end of a multisyllable word is "movie" - the rest appear very seldom.

 

Are you aiming for your child to do a spelling bee or do you want them to be able to spell well - there is a difference. Also children who have trouble and mix up a concept often just need a bit of time for it to sink in and a bit more practice. Also this is why there often are spelling lists that list words with similar spelling patterns - in the hope you can somehow link those words and remember how to spell them. The best way to teach spelling where sight is needed is to get your child reading and reading and reading - where she must see those words over and over and over again.

[8filltheheart]

. The best way to teach spelling where sight is needed is to get your child reading and reading and reading - where she must see those words over and over and over again.

Definitely only true for some children. Some kids need multi-pathway exposure in order to get words in their long term memory and simple visual imprinting is not enough.

[boscopup]

Definitely only true for some children. Some kids need multi-pathway exposure in order to get words in their long term memory and simple visual imprinting is not enough.

 

Yeah, my 9 year old is an advanced and VERY fast reader. He reads all the time. I have trouble keeping him in books. His spelling is average to below average. Reading and spelling are soooo different!

 

[lacell]

I have responded to your other thread, but you simply can NOT know the answers to the above types of questions w/o simply having memorized the correct phonogram choice.   It is what I was describing my other response.   You cannot rule your way into correct spelling.   They eventually have to remember the correct spelling.

 

There are no rules for why:

 

fruit vs. froot  (ui and oo both say /oo/ in the middle of a word and keep in mind that you spell moot with oo and suit with ui.......)

laugh vs. laff (gaff??)

bought vs. baught (considering caught)

bird vs burd (but we do spell curd)

glue vs. glew (but why drew?)

boat vs bote (but tote)

keep vs keap (reap??)

freight vs. frait (trait??)

rhyme vs rhime (but time)

judgment vs. judgement (g should never say j w/o an i,e, or y)

 

I could go on all day.   I have seen every spelling imaginable.   I used WRTR with my oldest for 5 yrs b/c I was convinced eventually his spelling would have to improve.  I was wrong.  And it was also the worst teaching reading experience I had (I combined WRTR w/100 EZ Lessons).   I switched with my #2 child to Sing, Spell, Read, Write and teaching reading became fun.   I have used it with all of my other kids.

 

As far as what spelling program, OhE on the other thread was absolutely correct.  It depends on the needs of the child.   My 2nd child almost has perfect photograph memory.   He has never misspelled a word that I can remember.   How To Teach Spelling is a program that is rule based with spiraled dictation that has worked for my typical easy to learn how to spell kids.   My dyslexics, otoh, OG approaches have been a disaster (funny considering they are supposed to be good for dyslexics.)  Apples and Pears and SRA Spelling through Morphographs were the best choices.   It really boils down to what gets them to imprint the correct spelling into their long term memory.

 

Anyway, suffice it to say that it is a complete misunderstanding of English spelling and phonics rules to assume if you know the rules you will be able to decide how to spell.   It just doesn't work that way.   As I wrote in the other post, for decoding, phonics is highly effective.   For spelling, phonograms help narrow the options but in the end they just have to know.

 

Thank you. That is extremely helpful info!

 

 

[lacell]

As far as spelling goes my DD knows that in multisyllable words that end in the EE sound, the majority end in Y - and she very seldom has a problem. The most common word that ends in IE saying EE at the end of a multisyllable word is "movie" - the rest appear very seldom.

 

Are you aiming for your child to do a spelling bee or do you want them to be able to spell well - there is a difference. Also children who have trouble and mix up a concept often just need a bit of time for it to sink in and a bit more practice. Also this is why there often are spelling lists that list words with similar spelling patterns - in the hope you can somehow link those words and remember how to spell them. The best way to teach spelling where sight is needed is to get your child reading and reading and reading - where she must see those words over and over and over again.

 

Spelling bees.

 

[Tanikit]

Yes, I do agree that just reading will not be enough for many children - however, it is still a good idea to have them reading and seeing those words loads even if you have to do much more to get the spelling better - because they need exposure to words for spelling and also for vocabulary - why would you want to spell a word you never use (except of course for those infamous spelling bees).

[8filltheheart]

Yes, I do agree that just reading will not be enough for many children - however, it is still a good idea to have them reading and seeing those words loads even if you have to do much more to get the spelling better - because they need exposure to words for spelling and also for vocabulary - why would you want to spell a word you never use (except of course for those infamous spelling bees).

 

Ummmm, I want my kids reading b/c I want my kids reading anyway?????   I can also say quite definitively that my 2 worst spelling kids read almost all day long during their school days and their spelling was still atrocious.   The idea that reading leads to good spelling is only true for kids who visually imprint words and that is far from all of them.

[MerryAtHope]

Definitely only true for some children. Some kids need multi-pathway exposure in order to get words in their long term memory and simple visual imprinting is not enough.

 

Yes. Good spellers are almost always avid readers, but a lot of great readers are poor spellers. Encoding is harder than decoding.

 

Good spellers use a variety of effective spelling strategies--4 main ones being phonetic, rules-based, visual, and morphemic. Focusing on just one of these for struggling spellers will usually leave gaps. We're so fortunate to have a variety of programs available to see what will work best for our kids!

 

As far as knowing whether to use Y, EY, or IE at the end of a word--it helped my kids to know that less than 20 words use IE, and less than 50 use EY--so just memorize the common ones using those spellings and know that in most words, it will be simply Y (more than 1600 words use just Y).  Sometimes knowing what to focus on can help a student learn variances like this one. 

[lacell]

This is a great article by Rod Everson on this topic:

 

http://www.ontrackreading.com/homeschooling/the-easiest-change