gratitude Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 My oldest, age 10, has completed R&S English grades 2, 3, & two-thirds of grade 4. We did use both the writing and grammar in levels 2 & 3, and in the start of 4. Since then we have done grammar only. The main reason being that neither of us was enjoying how it taught writing. I love R&S grammar, and even my ds10 appreciates the fact he learns so much from it. So this is my question from a mom who doesn't have any idea of how to teach writing: *Does R&S do a solid job teaching composition as it goes up in levels? So far it has mostly been grammar. The grammar is simply excellent, but I am having a difficult time determining the strength of the writing in the program. *Will it be enough for composition? *What level does the composition increase in? *Do you enjoy the writing in R&S? *Does creative writing emerge at some point; or does it need to come in outside of the lessons? *Is this a good option for a son who shows interest in creative writing? *Would IEW be a better composition choice? I have been doing grammar only so I guess I could do it this way. *If you have used R&S for grammar and something else for composition did it become too much doing it that way? *How many days a week do you do composition lessons in 4th and 5th grades? *I have also noticed that Heart of Dakota uses both R&S English for grammar and writing, CM writing methods, and still adds IEW composition? Does this mean R&S is not enough for writing? *I have a very old 2003 copy of the WTM book. In it Jessie Wise and Susan Bauer do recommend not adding any additional writing to Rod and Staff other than note booking for science and history. Does this mean Rod and Staff is enough for writing? We are using MFW so it does provide some CM writing and note booking for geography and science inside their program. I bought Writing Strands, at MFW's recommendation, but I didn't like the author's writing. Thank you for reading all of this and for any help that you may have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I've used R&S 3-10 with two dc, and I am currently using the 5th grade with my third. I have taught IEW to my own and classes of students for going on 10 years. The writing instruction in R&S increases as a percentage of the total lessons as you move up the grades. So each year there is a bit more writing. What I always did in the early years was to take the assignments and then repeat them even as we moved on to the grammar lessons. So I would add some writing from science or history topics and use the last R&S writing lesson we had. SO if it was on giving details in paragraphs, for example, I would have them write a paragraph a few days later on a topic and use what they had learned in the R&S lesson. This really cemented the instruction into their little brains. The lessons also build on each other very well, so they are often practicing the skills again anyway. It is up to you as the teacher to make sure they are implementing the things they have learned so far in their current and future writing assignments. All that said.... :D I also used IEW. (We had very relaxed history, science, etc. - content areas - in the early years so that I could beat math, spelling, writing, and reading to death.) My dc are excellent writers, thanks in large part to IEW. For example, my 15 yo has the highest grade in her community college Comp I class and was asked to start working at the writing tutoring center next semester, and my 18 yo got near perfect scores or perfect scores on all the English portions of her ACT, SAT, and SAT subject tests. Now not all of that is R&S and IEW - she reads a lot and we did a Great Books high school track - but I think it was a large part of it. Some of your other questions: Yes, there will be creative writing - stories, poetry, etc. - in R&S. We did composition every day, really, in some form or another in 4th and 5th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrightmom Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Listening in ….. Thanks for asking the questions gratitude ( :thumbup1: ). The composition lessons in English 5 have been excellent. Angela, your advice is great! How did you balance out Rod & Staff and IEW without going overboard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrightmom Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Gratitude, Are you aware that Rod and Staff publishes an English handbook? You may like having one as a reference while teaching and learning to apply those composition lessons across your curriculum. It's this one here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gratitude Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Gratitude, Are you aware that Rod and Staff publishes an English handbook? You may like having one as a reference while teaching and learning to apply those composition lessons across your curriculum. It's this one here. Thank you so much Katrina! I wasn't aware of this. I will definitely be ordering one. It is also good to know that book 5 is excellent. I love hearing that. :hurray: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gratitude Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Listening in ….. Thanks for asking the questions gratitude ( :thumbup1: ). The composition lessons in English 5 have been excellent. Angela, your advice is great! How did you balance out Rod & Staff and IEW without going overboard? :iagree: Your advice is great Angela, thank you! I have the same question. How did you balance out Rod and Staff with IEW? How many days a week did you do of each one? Did you do all of the writing in Rod and Staff while doing IEW? Thank you ladies for your help. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I have used R&S grammar for grades 6-8, so I have seen all the writing assignments for the middle grades. We have not used it because we use WWS 1-3 (currently beta using WWS3). I have found R&S writing in the middle grades to be...boring? uninspiring? There isn't anything wrong with them, except maybe the scarcity, but I would find them deadly dull to teach and for my student to do. If you could only afford R&S then it is sufficient, I guess. But I think you can do a lot better with other materials. I can't speak to IEW, so I am no help there, but I know a lot of people really like it. I think you can find better writing instruction, in terms of instruction, content and teacher support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 My oldest, age 10, has completed R&S English grades 2, 3, & two-thirds of grade 4. We did use both the writing and grammar in levels 2 & 3, and in the start of 4. Since then we have done grammar only. The main reason being that neither of us was enjoying how it taught writing. I love R&S grammar, and even my ds10 appreciates the fact he learns so much from it. So this is my question from a mom who doesn't have any idea of how to teach writing: *Does R&S do a solid job teaching composition as it goes up in levels? So far it has mostly been grammar. The grammar is simply excellent, but I am having a difficult time determining the strength of the writing in the program. *Will it be enough for composition? *What level does the composition increase in? *Do you enjoy the writing in R&S? *Does creative writing emerge at some point; or does it need to come in outside of the lessons? *Is this a good option for a son who shows interest in creative writing? *Would IEW be a better composition choice? I have been doing grammar only so I guess I could do it this way. *If you have used R&S for grammar and something else for composition did it become too much doing it that way? *How many days a week do you do composition lessons in 4th and 5th grades? *I have also noticed that Heart of Dakota uses both R&S English for grammar and writing, CM writing methods, and still adds IEW composition? Does this mean R&S is not enough for writing? *I have a very old 2003 copy of the WTM book. In it Jessie Wise and Susan Bauer do recommend not adding any additional writing to Rod and Staff other than note booking for science and history. Does this mean Rod and Staff is enough for writing? We are using MFW so it does provide some CM writing and note booking for geography and science inside their program. I bought Writing Strands, at MFW's recommendation, but I didn't like the author's writing. Thank you for reading all of this and for any help that you may have. Even the lessons which seem to be only about grammar are actually also teaching children how to write. :-) This is especially true if you have your dc write their assignments instead of doing them orally. Creative writing is only one kind of writing, but yes, it it also taught. Do you have R&S's scope and sequence? You can see from that the kinds of writing that are taught and when they are taught. The early years focus on grammar, so that children will have the skills necessary to put their words into order when they write. The seventh grade book really picks up the writing instruction and assignments, but there is still plenty of writing in the earlier grades. It is never necessary to supplement the writing (although personally, I prefer the way Writing Strands teaches, and IEW makes me crazy, so there you go, lol). That the author of HOD doesn't use the writing instruction and assignments in R&S's English does not mean it is not enough; it only means that the author of HOD prefers different methods. Or, to put it another way, SWB says it's enough, so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TarynB Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Even the lessons which seem to be only about grammar are actually also teaching children how to write. :-) This is especially true if you have your dc write their assignments instead of doing them orally. Creative writing is only one kind of writing, but yes, it it also taught. Do you have R&S's scope and sequence? You can see from that the kinds of writing that are taught and when they are taught. The early years focus on grammar, so that children will have the skills necessary to put their words into order when they write. The seventh grade book really picks up the writing instruction and assignments, but there is still plenty of writing in the earlier grades. It is never necessary to supplement the writing (although personally, I prefer the way Writing Strands teaches, and IEW makes me crazy, so there you go, lol). That the author of HOD doesn't use the writing instruction and assignments in R&S's English does not mean it is not enough; it only means that the author of HOD prefers different methods. Or, to put it another way, SWB says it's enough, so... Did you actually teach with Writing Strands? Or IEW? As I recall from earlier threads, you've never used either of those programs. Informed feedback from homeschoolers who've actually used the curricula in question might be more beneficial to the rest of us. :) ETA: I thought you posted earlier that Writing Strands was published after your kids could have used it. (So you didn't teach actual children with it. ??? Whatever.) Why did you like it? What specifically did you prefer about it over other composition curricula? You said that IEW makes you "crazy", yet I believe you've posted before that you never used it. OK, fair enough, sometimes after objective consideration and thorough analysis, we decide not to use certain curricula. But what specifically about IEW makes you "crazy"? Tell us more. Sometimes the reasons you have for dismissing something make it a perfect fit for someone else. If you don't get specific, we'll never know. IEW gets bashed mostly by people who take a cursory glance and don't understand how it really works and what it looks like by the end. It would be a shame if we all dismissed curricula that might be a perfect fit for a particular child just because one anonymous person on the internet said it made them "crazy". However, I tend to have more faith and trust in known sources, and as you said about another curriculum, SWB recommends IEW, so . . . The OP asked for comparisons of specific curricula. Spouting opinions without context isn't helpful in her decision-making process. If one really wants to help others, it is better to share objective and specific insights. The rest of us can then make more informed decisions for ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Angela, your advice is great! How did you balance out Rod & Staff and IEW without going overboard? Yeah, I didn't. :D Not the best person to ask there... I went overboard with writing when they were younger. It built a very solid foundation, and I wouldn't do it any differently. We did most of the writing in R&S (as they got older I would skip some creative writing stuff, which I left them to on their own) We did the IEW on its own, usually four days a week or so. In units I/II, this meant outlining and re-writing every day, then every other day as the pieces got longer and we learned stylistic techniques. Then we spent most of the year writing one piece a week, working up to longer assignments which took two or three weeks of re-writing by the end of the year. That covered up until 7th or 8th, when we just did research reports and such all year long, at least one or two a week, plus a few longer things. Then in high school, I was pretty much done with IEW instruction, just continuing on; we worked on the rhetorical aspects and the content of their writing almost exclusively. I say this all past tense, but I have a little guy still using R&S and IEW. He is a bit of an odd ball, though, as he started writing paragraphs as a tiny thing (watching older sisters,) so he skipped a lot of the years in IEW my older ones spent. He is skipping through some R&S; the good thing about using the same curriculum with all of your dc is that you get to know what will be repeated the most and can be skimmed or skipped at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Even the lessons which seem to be only about grammar are actually also teaching children how to write. :-) This is especially true if you have your dc write their assignments instead of doing them orally.... Do you have R&S's scope and sequence? You can see from that the kinds of writing that are taught and when they are taught. The early years focus on grammar, so that children will have the skills necessary to put their words into order when they write. The seventh grade book really picks up the writing instruction and assignments, but there is still plenty of writing in the earlier grades... That the author of HOD doesn't use the writing instruction and assignments in R&S's English does not mean it is not enough; it only means that the author of HOD prefers different methods. Or, to put it another way, SWB says it's enough, so... I agree. You see people asking for a way to integrate grammar and writing. Well, there it is! :D The writing builds on the grammar and vice versa. The HOD author appears to have degrees in Elementary Ed. SWB is an author, college writing and literature instructor, and has a Master of Arts degree in English. Just saying. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipling Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I have a 5th and 3rd grader, and we use Rod and Staff for grammar only - we don't do any of the writing assignments. They do the work orally and they use the workbooks. I don't have them write out any of the written assignments. I also started with IEW this year. That is our composition curriculum. It works for us to have two separate programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Did you actually teach with Writing Strands? Or IEW? As I recall from earlier threads, you've never used either of those programs. Informed feedback from homeschoolers who've actually used the curricula in question might be more beneficial to the rest of us. :) Feel free to disregard my comments. :-) Neither Cathy Duffy nor Mary Pride used all of the materials they reviewed. Yes, I did use Writing Strands. No, I did not use IEW, because its methodology made my eyes hurt. I could not imagine myself teaching it or my children sitting through it. So, no, I cannot tell you how my children liked it, or how I taught it, but some people will appreciate my reasons for not wanting to use it in the first place. Carry on. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Did you actually teach with Writing Strands? Or IEW? As I recall from earlier threads, you've never used either of those programs. Informed feedback from homeschoolers who've actually used the curricula in question might be more beneficial to the rest of us. :) There are many programs that I have bought or borrowed to evaluate that I have chosen not to use for one reason or another. It doesn't mean that I don't have some insight to the program or haven't made a good assessment of what I see as its strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes I can see something would appeal to a particular kind of learner, but not the one I have so I don't use it. Other times something might require a lot of teacher time for a subject that I am not that invested in but would be great for someone who is. Or sometimes my reasoning for not using something is valuable to someone else. I know I have appreciated hearing that information from others. I don't have to use material to have formed an opinion of it. If I feel like I have gleaned something worthwhile I will share that information. If I don't then I won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gratitude Posted April 26, 2014 Author Share Posted April 26, 2014 Thank you everyone for all of your answers. The answers are helping me think this through and reflect on the R&S writing lessons that we have done. I like the idea of using them, but I also like the idea of adding some other type of composition teaching for variety and teacher help. It is helpful to know that some of you have found ways to combine R&S with other composition or even used both. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasperstone Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 I hope you don't mind me posting here, but I was in a similar position. I was using CLE LA 5 (for my 11 yr old) which is quite heavy (tedious) in grammar, but not in writing. My dd was getting to really dislike English (previously her favorite subject!), so I had to do something. Anyway, I have purchased Essentials in Writing 6 (EIW). It is a writing program which has grammar incorporated into it also. Just letting you know there are other options besides IEW, if you aren't sure. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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