Using CLE LA 5 (half way) but need to switch- BJU, EIW or Hakes? Help

[Jasperstone]

Hi,

 

I'm stuck as to what to go to next. My dd 11 has been using CLE for 2 years now, and she loved their English, but lately I have seen a huge attidude change, and when I looked at what she is doing I thought- no wonder the joy is gone.

 

Anyway, I have narrowed the switch down to BJU English 6, Hake's Grammar & Writing Grade 6 Kit or Essentials in Writing.

 

I like something that is parent friendly and that is open and go. Also, want more writing- as that's one thing lacking in CLE LA.

 

Can anyone advise me please.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Cheers,

Jasperstone

 

[Random]

I haven't used Hake or EiW, but we have used BJU and CLE, so I'll compare those two.

 

I used CLE for levels 1-5 for my sons.  This year, one son is using BJU 4 with the online teacher.  There is more writing in the BJU, and many different types of writing assignments.  In fact, the chapters alternate between grammar and writing.  Because there is more writing, there is more parent involvement and checking of work, but the grammar taught in BJU has been all review from CLE.  The writing instruction has been excellent (IMO) in BJU.  The teacher takes days to do what I would've expected in one writing lesson.  It has been exactly what my son has needed.  And it has really helped me to see I was way out of line with my expectations.

 

The grammar in CLE is more advanced, the workload is heavier and the lessons are longer.  The writing assignments weren't any easier or lighter in CLE, but the level of writing instruction was general, rather than specific.  For instance, one lesson might include a letter writing assignment, but not tell the student how to go about it.  And, the writing assignments aren't separate; they are part of a grammar lesson.  I like that CLE contains writing, grammar, spelling and handwriting.  I like the price and that the instructions are written to the student.

 

The grammar in BJU is lighter, but more practical.  The workload is much lighter and the writing instruction is careful and intentional.  There is less grammar review (but also less being taught), but there are chapter reviews and cumulative reviews.  I don't think this is an independent program, unless you purchase the DVD/online teacher.  I think you would need to teach each lesson, out of the TM, to your student.

 

Each program has its strengths; it just depends on where you need the most instruction.

[Jasperstone]

Thanks Random!

 

Would CLE 5 level be BJU 5, or would you say closer to a Grade 6?

[Hunter]

If you go with Hake, make sure not to place too high. I'm working through 7 myself, and…this is not labeled for the REALITY of average children. I think 7 is equal to Saxon Algebra 1 in difficulty. So if you have a 7th grader doing algebra, then they can probably handle Hake 7.

[Jasperstone]

 

f you go with Hake, make sure not to place too high. I'm working through 7 myself, and…this is not labeled for the REALITY of average children. I think 7 is equal to Saxon Algebra 1 in difficulty. So if you have a 7th grader doing algebra, then they can probably handle Hake 7.

 

 

Is that the same for their English? Are they a year higher than what the grade level says?

[Hunter]

Saxon Math 54 was originally for average 5th graders and gifted 4th graders. The text was renamed 5/4 and made harder and wider, but listed as average 4th grade. Then people started using it with 3rd graders. The book was basically made 3 years harder. Hake Grammar and Writing is lined up with the more accelerated scope and sequence preparing students to do AP in high school, instead of high school in high school.

 

If you have the kind of kid that will be doing algebra 1 in 7th grade, then use the Hake Grammar and Writing on grade level. If you are looking at algebra 1 in 8th use Hake Grammar one year behind. If you are planning algebra 1 in 9th, then use Hake Grammar 2 years behind.

 

Obviously, I know that students can be at very different levels in math and grammar! I'm just trying to give you ballpark about how accelerated the series is.

 

Hake grammar 7 is harder than my 9th grade college-prep grammar text. "College prep" means college during high school now, so expectations have changed; I'm not so sure children have changed, though. So BALLPARK, I consider Hake Grammar 9th grade, but understand people feeling the need to push it down to 7th grade IF they can. The reality is that MANY students won't be ready for Hake Grammar 7 until 10th and 11th grade.

 

I'm just saying to be careful about placement, if you go with Hake.

[Jasperstone]

 

Hake grammar 7 is harder than my 9th grade college-prep grammar text. "College prep" means college during high school now, so expectations have changed; I'm not so sure children have changed, though. So BALLPARK, I consider Hake Grammar 9th grade, but understand people feeling the need to push it down to 7th grade IF they can. The reality is that MANY students won't be ready for Hake Grammar 7 until 10th and 11th grade.

 

I'm just saying to be careful about placement, if you go with Hake.

 

 

Oh, wow! That's full on. Thanks for letting me know that. I will definately take a year lower in that case (if I decide to use them). I think I might have to as well with BJU (if we go that way) mainly because of the writing. She is pretty behind in it.

 

Thanx :001_smile:

[TarynB]

We use Hake Grammar (currently finishing our second year of it), and haven't found it to be especially difficult or overly challenging by grade level.  Everybody is different, of course, but I just wanted to share our experience, so as not to scare you or anyone else off.  

 

There are grade level samples and S&S documents on Hake's website, so you can see for yourself.

 

My DS is using Hake 7 grammar currently, and, by age, he's a young-ish 6th grader.  He did Hake 5 prior to that, and one year of Easy Grammar (level 4, didn't finish the whole book).  He's had no other formal grammar instruction.  He's a good reader and decent writer for his age, but he also doesn't especially love or enjoy grammar, FWIW.

 

I do believe that Hake (and other popular programs, for instance Analytical Grammar) covers everything a student needs to know about grammar by the end of middle school.  That frees us up to focus on advanced writing skills, literature, and written literary analysis during high school, with specific grammar concepts being reviewed only as needed.  Whether that means that Hake, AG, and other middle school grammar programs are "accelerated", and whether that is a new thing . . . that hasn't been my experience.  I'm kinda old, and I didn't have grammar instruction during my high school years - it was all done before then.

 

I like covering grammar well and thoroughly when the student is ready, rather than early and often.  For us, that means middle school, not before and hopefully not after.  I don't believe it needs to be taught every year or all year long either.

 

I've heard good things about EIW as a writing curriculum but never got the chance to use it.  It might be really good for your DD where she is right now.  The DVD instruction makes it about as parent-friendly, and open and go, as you can get.  BJU is expensive and oriented to a classroom, so not as parent-friendly.  Hake can by dry and uninspiring (although the flip side is that its cut-and-dry and efficient LOL), so kids who crave more creativity probably wouldn't like it.  Writing Tales is another one your DD might enjoy.

 

We choose not to use the writing assignments in Hake.  The writing component is not integrated into the grammar instruction; it is a separate, smaller workbook with around 30 writing lessons (depending on the level).  Hake is first and foremost a grammar program, with some vocab built in, and some writing assignments tacked on.  There are other writing programs out there that have better scaffolding for building writing skills and that provide more engaging assignments, IMO.  We've liked WWE, WWS, IEW-SWI, and Jump In, for example. 

 

What works best for us is choosing a writing curriculum that is a good fit, and using that.  And also choosing a grammar curriculum that is a good fit, and using that.  It hasn't worked for us to combine writing and grammar in one curriculum.  Obviously grammar skills support writing skills, but they don't necessarily develop at the same rate, and my kid is definitely asynchronous, so we mix and match. 

 

Just my rambling, offering another perspective.  :001_cool:

[Tiramisu]

Just my opinion, and I'm not very informed, but I think there's too much similarity between Hake and CLE to give a breath of fresh air to your dd.

 

I think EIW would provide the writing instruction you're looking for and cover your grammar bases. It is so different your dd may find it refreshing.

[Random]

Thanks Random!

 

Would CLE 5 level be BJU 5, or would you say closer to a Grade 6?

 

It really depends.  My son finished CLE 300 and then did BJU 4 this year.  He is skipping most of the grammar lessons in BJU, but struggling with the writing lessons.   I tell him that if he can pass the chapter test for the grammar chapters without doing the lessons, he can skip the lessons.  i don't think he'll be able to jump into CLE 500 after finishing BJU 4. 

 

And here is my subjective answer:  I'm not so sure that knowing ALL the grammar that CLE teaches is completely beneficial.  I *love* linguistics and grammar and rules and playing with words and diagramming complex sentences.  My boys...not so much.  They just want to know enough so they can write sentences that make sense.  I'm not sure they'll go back to CLE,  even though I absolutely love it.  It's my favorite and what I would've gotten 100s in, if I'd used it as a student.

[Hunter]

The reason I compared Hake grammar to Saxon math, was because I thought that was the best way to give a ballpark of the difficulty. There are MANY many many families here that use Saxon 5/4 for 3rd grade. But I'm stuck in the 90s when 54–which was an easier and narrower text–was for 5th graders.

 

I think back in the 90s there were some private schools an a few public schools equal with today's rigor, but many of those of us who went to PS in the 80s and early 90s remember something different. Algebra 1 was 9th grade, and our first and only grammar book was in 9th grade. We wrote our first 5 paragraph literary analysis essay in 10 grade. And this was "college prep".

 

I just want people to look carefully at Hake Grammar before ASSUMING the grade levels match up to THEIR idea of grade levels, because when reading the website and perusing the samples, I underestimated the rigor. I found the publisher recommendations the most misleading.

 

I don't care how strong of a reader a 7th grader is, I adamantly do NOT agree that a strong reading 7th grader with little to no grammar instruction can do this book, ESPECIALLY independently. I do not agree with placing older students by READING level. The website also says that much of book 8 was originally first used with college students. So that did alert me to the possibility that 7 might be rigorous. But I was lulled by the assurance that older students could be placed by reading level.

 

I've been looking at Writing Strands and the publisher recommends starting struggling high school students in book 3, and TWTM 1st edition recommends starting average older students in book 4. And then to work though the levels more quickly. Hake would be harder to work through more quickly. So I don't know if WS placement and scheduling would work, but these programs took about equal in rigor to me.

 

I think I'm going to use Writing Strands instead of the Hake writing. Probably WS 4 with Hake 4 and so on. I personally am working through Hake 7 and WS 4, because that is what I purchased based on the reviews, but if I didn't have previous grammar background, I'd have had to immediately purchase a lower level of Hake. WS 4 is obviously below my writing level and but I want to work thought the program mastering the earlier levels (and WS ways of doing things) before getting to the high school level papers.

[Jasperstone]

Just my opinion, and I'm not very informed, but I think there's too much similarity between Hake and CLE to give a breath of fresh air to your dd.

 

I think EIW would provide the writing instruction you're looking for and cover your grammar bases. It is so different your dd may find it refreshing.

 

 

So would you say it's as tedious as CLE?

 

When I looked at the samples in Hake Grade 6 they seemed easier than my DD CLE Grade 5!

 

I'm just scared she will lose all that she has gained in grammar.

 

What about Easy Grammar? Is it nice and quick?

[Jasperstone]

We use Hake Grammar (currently finishing our second year of it), and haven't found it to be especially difficult or overly challenging by grade level.  Everybody is different, of course, but I just wanted to share our experience, so as not to scare you or anyone else off.  

 

There are grade level samples and S&S documents on Hake's website, so you can see for yourself.

 

My DS is using Hake 7 grammar currently, and, by age, he's a youngish 6th grader.  He did Hake 5 prior to that, and one year of Easy Grammar (level 4, didn't finish the whole book).  He's had no other formal grammar instruction.  He's a good reader and decent writer for his age, but he also doesn't especially love or enjoy grammar, FWIW.

 

I do believe that Hake (and other popular programs, for instance Analytical Grammar) covers everything a student needs to know about grammar by the end of middle school.  That frees us up to focus on advanced writing skills, literature, and written literary analysis during high school, with specific grammar concepts being reviewed only as needed.  Whether that means that Hake, AG, and other middle school grammar programs are "accelerated", and whether that is a new thing . . . that hasn't been my experience.  I'm kinda old, and I didn't have grammar instruction during my high school years - it was all done before then.

 

I like covering grammar well and thoroughly when the student is ready, rather than early and often.  I don't believe it needs to be taught every year either.

 

I've heard good things about EIW as a writing curriculum but never got the chance to use it.  It might be really good for your DD where she is right now.  The DVD instruction makes it about as parent-friendly, and open and go, as you can get.  BJU is expensive and oriented to a classroom, so not as parent-friendly.  Hake can by dry and uninspiring (although the flip side is that its cut-and-dry and efficient LOL), so kids who crave more creativity probably wouldn't like it.  Writing Tales is another one your DD might enjoy.

 

We choose not to use the writing assignments in Hake.  The writing component is not integrated into the grammar instruction; it is a separate, smaller workbook with around 30 writing lessons (depending on the level).  Hake is first and foremost a grammar program, with some vocab built in, and some writing assignments tacked on.  There are other writing programs out there that have better scaffolding for building writing skills and that provide more engaging assignments, IMO.  We've liked WWE, WWS, IEW-SWI, and Jump In, for example. 

 

What works best for us is choosing a writing curriculum that is a good fit, and using that.  And also choosing a grammar curriculum that is a good fit, and using that.  It hasn't worked for us to combine writing and grammar in one curriculum.  Obviously grammar skills support writing skills, but they don't necessarily develop at the same rate, and my kid is definitely asynchronous, so we mix and match. 

 

Just my rambling, offering another perspective.  :001_cool:

 

 

What didn't you like about Easy Grammar?

[Jasperstone]

I'm starting to think that BJU is out, as it's too teacher involved for me, especially after coming from CLE.

 

How long would Hake 5/6 lessons take? Easy Grammar looks really good too. And I'm still not sure about EIW- sigh!

 

At least I eliminated one!  :laugh:

[Jasperstone]

Just my opinion, and I'm not very informed, but I think there's too much similarity between Hake and CLE to give a breath of fresh air to your dd.

 

I think EIW would provide the writing instruction you're looking for and cover your grammar bases. It is so different your dd may find it refreshing.

 

 

Have you used the program yourself?

 

If so, can you tell me what you like about it, and if there's anything you don't etc...

[Jasperstone]

DOUBLE POSTED

[Tiramisu]

So would you say it's as tedious as CLE?

 

When I looked at the samples in Hake Grade 6 they seemed easier than my DD CLE Grade 5!

 

I'm just scared she will lose all that she has gained in grammar.

 

What about Easy Grammar? Is it nice and quick?

 

 

Have you used the program yourself?

 

If so, can you tell me what you like about it, and if there's anything you don't etc...

 

We used CLE and around the time we used it I looked at the samples of Hake in trying to decide what to use. If you think Hake seems lighter that CLE, maybe that might be a good bet for her and then perhaps not so tedious. When we used CLE LA, my dd was doing the very long CLE math lessons and seemed to really need that reinforcement in math but not so much in grammar (she has studied Latin for years, too, and taking Latin classes that included grammar). So keeping our circumstances in perspective, CLE was not worth continuing in terms of what was accomplished given the time and effort involved. I'm sure there are things she would have learned if we had continued but everything gets to be a balancing act and you have to take into account your needs and the strengths and weaknesses of your child in light of your particular priorities. 

 

I used Easy Grammar Plus and a year of the Ultimate System (or whatever it's called) with my oldest and she retained very little, at least it seemed so to me. But that could say more about her than the program. She did get a good writing score on the SAT but I don't know how much EG had to do with it. I never felt inclined to use EG with my other dc. Personally, it might not be a good choice after CLE if your dc is managing CLE well, just because it's rather simplistic in comparison. It would be a breath of fresh air and a chance for a new perspective. You could try it for a year. But I would recommend looking at the samples before purchasing.

[TarynB]

How long would Hake 5/6 lessons take?

 

My son did Hake 5 and is now doing Hake 7.  We use the grammar book only.  We do not use the writing lessons.  He spends about 30 minutes total on each grammar lesson.  Note, he does about half of the review questions (evens or odds) and that is plenty of review for him.  There are about 10 questions on new material, and 20 to 30 review questions in every lesson.  He does a lesson split over two days.  We also don't do grammar every day; we alternate grammar and vocab days.

 

What didn't you like about Easy Grammar?

 

Easy Grammar was OK.  DS didn't retain much from it, but he might have been too young (looking back, IMO, formal grammar instruction wasn't needed for him as a then-fourth grader).  EG didn't have enough systematic/cumulative, frequent review for him.  We could have added Daily Grams, their companion product designed to provide such review, but then we would have been doing over 30 minutes of grammar every day, and that just wasn't where I wanted to spend the time.  EG also doesn't teach diagramming, if that's important to you.  I did like EG's "mark out prepositions first" approach though.  That makes things simpler when breaking down the parts of a sentence, and we still use that method ourselves.

 

I let DS choose between continuing EG or trying Hake, after having him look at Hake samples.  He chose Hake and hasn't wanted to switch since. 

 

HTH.

[Zebra]

We used CLE LA in 2nd grade, switched to BJU for 3rd and 4th and used both EIW and BJU for 5th.  I skipped most of the grammar in both programs.  Long story, not really relevant to you, but just FYI :) .

 

I found CLE LA to be overly technical with grammar, and also obscure grammar.   I also felt there wasn't enough writing.   That was MY experience, others will disagree.  

 

I was wary of Bob Jones as a company, but absolutely loved their Writing and Grammar program.   As you get up there, 4th grade or so, the grammar does get harder to teach.   Too much teacher involvement for me.  I do love the way they lay out their writing, step by step.   They break it down wonderfully for the student.  That being said, they completely switch methods in 7th grade, and in my opinion starting out with her in 6th grade with BJU would be pointless.

 

So, EIW.  I have slightly mixed feelings about EIW, but it worked really well for us once we got used to it, and I will be using it exclusively in 6th grade.   There are a lot of days that have a video of a teacher at a whiteboard teaching the lesson.   This is exactly what we needed.   I like how the teacher will put an example of a paragraph on the board, and then revise it, showing the student how to do it.   I watch the videos with dd so I know what she is supposed to be doing (and they are very short and not every day) and I love how I have been taken out of the equation, not having to be the teacher.  We were butting heads, and this has relieved a lot of tension for us.  I know what she is supposed to be doing, and I correct things and give her pointers but I don't have to teach anymore.  I was not thrilled with this program at the start of the year.   There were a lot of errors in the grammar portion, but the program has been updated and fixed and I had an older version.  

 

I have no experience with Hake, and almost went with that but decided to use EIW instead. 

[Jasperstone]

Thanks again ladies for your advise, and sharing your experiences! :)