Advice for math?

[Dicentra]

I'm not sure if I can phrase this to make it coherent but I'll try. :)

 

My dd is currently 13 - she'll be 14 at the end of April.  She's technically in Grade 8 but we've been working at the high school level for science for the last 2 years.  I think she's a bright girl :) - I don't know if I'd say gifted but certainly bright.  She's a STEM girl - with a chem teacher for a mom and a pharmacist for a dad, I suppose it was more likely than not.  Her current thoughts on post-secondary are leaning towards geology or geochemistry.

 

We started last year (Grade 7) with Life of Fred Beginning Algebra.  I don't know how many of you are familiar with Fred - I'd place the difficulty of his high school curriculum somewhere below AoPS but slightly above Jacobs.  (Feel free to correct me on that or to disagree - I know Fred isn't everyone's cup of tea.)  (A brief aside for some background - the whole concept of doing non-integrated math and science for at least the first two years of high school is foreign to me - here in Ontario, we have integrated science until Grade 11 and integrated math until Calculus.)

 

She began to struggle last year with Fred's Beginning Algebra about half way through the book - around factoring, I think.  It shocked me a bit - we did Singapore all the way through and she finished 6B in in the middle of Grade 5.  We did the 4 middle school Fred books in Grade 6 (Fractions, Decimals & Percents, and the two Pre-Alg books) and I thought that Beginning Algebra in Grade 7 would be fine.  It wasn't.  There were many tears.  (She was also 12 - do all 12 year old girls go through a weepy phase??)  We dropped Fred and she worked through quite a few of the "Key to Algebra" books - I wanted her algebra to be rock solid before moving on to anything else.

 

At the start of this year, I decided to try a different curriculum - partly to see how it would go and partly to give the weepiness a chance to clear up. ;)  We went with Jacobs Algebra with the honours track schedule from Kolbe.  She seems to be doing much better this year - much of what she's done so far has been a review of either Fred or what she did with the "Key to Algebra" books.  She's pretty much at the point in Jacob's that matches to where she left off of Fred last year and she's asking if she should go back to Fred.  She really likes Fred - she's got a quirky sense of humour. :)  I feel somewhat badly that it took us this long to get beginning algebra back on track - I keep feeling like I should have pushed her a little more.  Ah well - that's a topic for another post. ;)

 

All that rambling to ask this - what do others think of Fred at the high school level?  Not enough?  Too... weird?  I know AoPS is highly recommended on the board but I'm not sure that dd is "mathy" enough for it - KWIM?  I don't think Jacobs challenges her but it did help her past the weepy stage so it had its benefits.  Is there any other curriculum that falls between Jacobs and AoPS in terms of difficulty?  Or am I looking at this the wrong way?  Should I let her keep on with Jacobs?  Math isn't her passion - she sees it's usefulness in the areas of science she's interested in but she isn't one of those kids who LOVE math for the sake of math.

 

Any thoughts?

[In The Great White North]

I would put Foerster somewhere around Jacobs, but we only used Jacobs for Geometry, so I'm assuming Jacob's Algebra is a similar level of difficulty.

 

Is it possible that what she needs is extra practice that Fred wasn't providing (and Jacob's and the Key to books did)?  Did you use the "Zillions of Practice Problems for Beginning Algebra"?

 

If she enjoys Fred, there is no real reason why she can't use both.

 

I also wouldn't feel at all bad about taking this long to "get beginning algebra back on track".  There have been many people on these boards who have had their kids repeat the entire year of Algebra I.

[kiana]

There's no reason at all she can't continue reading Fred and work through Jacobs as well. I would be hesitant to change what is now working.

[Sunshine State Sue]

FWIW, I have a degree in math and ds's strongest subject is math.

 

We used LoF Algebra in 7th grade along with MUS Algebra.  MUS was easy-peasy.  LoF was challenging.  LoF did not fit ds's learning style.  We used Foerster's Algebra in 8th grade.  I am a HUGE fan of Foerster's.  See my review here.

 

We flunked out of Jacob's Geometry after a few weeks and switched to Michael Serra's Discovering Geometry.  Jacob's did not fit ds's learning style.  He likes it clear and concise.  Jacob's was too verbose.

 

I never investigated AoPS.  I suspect it is for scary smart math students.  Ds is bright, but not scary smart.

 

Now for your questions.  I would not hesitate to use LoF as a sole math curriculum throughout high school if it fits a student's learning style.  It is a challenging series.  I remember a post many moons ago that pointed out that the Calculus text is a listed as a study resource for the Calculus CLEP exam.

 

Finally, if you hunt around, you will find threads that talk about 7th/8th grade and how the student's brain falls out of their head.  I don't know about girls because I have a boy and I was never a weepy girl.  :001_rolleyes: Lots of students repeat Algebra due to brain fog.

 

HTH!

 

P.S. I swear I remember a FAQ at Fred's site asking when to start Algebra and the answer was not until the student has armpit hair.

[Dicentra]

Thanks so much, everyone!  It's so helpful to bounce things off of others.  I wasn't a weepy girl either, Sue, so I'm a bit out of my comfort zone. :)  Oddly, my dd overall isn't a girl I would have thought would have been weepy and, thankfully, it seems to have passed.  I'm used to dealing with teens from Grade 9 on up from my years of teaching high school but not students in the Grade 7/8 range.  Based on what I saw and what I'm hearing from others, I don't think I'd teach Grade 7/8 for love nor money. ;)

 

My original math plan looked like this:

Life of Fred

Beg Alg - Gr. 7

Adv Alg - Gr. 8

Geo - Gr. 9

Trig - Gr. 10

Calc - Gr. 11

Either Stats or Lin Alg - Gr. 12

 

My alternate math plan (not using LoF) looked like this:

Jacobs Alg - Gr. 8

Jacobs Geo - Gr. 9

Foerster Alg 2/Trig - Gr. 10

Foerster Pre-calc - Gr. 11

Calc (wasn't sure which program) - Gr. 12

 

You guys are right - I could meld the two schedules (by shifting my LoF schedule forward a year and ditching the Stats/Lin Alg year).  My alternate plan could be her main math program and she could read Fred.  I don't think she would get the same challenge from just reading Fred and not attempting the Cities but she does like how he presents the math.

 

Is Jacobs considered a solid geo text?  Does Foerster have a geo text, Sue?  I know I've seen discussion here about older editions of Jacobs vs. newer ones.  I bought the 3rd edition before it went out of print but I've also got a used 2nd edition in my cart at Amazon.  The 2nd edition is considered better for formal proofs, isn't it?  I'll have to go digging on the board to find some past threads. :)

 

I keep looking at AoPS but I don't think it would be a fit with dd.  The science/math nerd part of me really wants to pick up a copy, though, to look through myself.  Maybe I'll see if I can find a used copy of the alg text and I'll buy it for myself as a 42nd birthday present in a few weeks. ;)

 

We were using the "Zillions" supplement for Fred, ItGWN (In the Great White North - I gave you an acronym ;)), but now that I'm thinking more about it, I think dd's weepiness was getting in the way of her comprehending anything that posed a challenge.  The "Key To" series was probably further down the challenge ladder than I needed to go but it seemed to do the trick.  I think the fact that the booklets were short, plain, to-the-point, and focused on one topic at a time were the benefits for her last year.

 

Thanks again, folks, for being a sounding board for me.  If anyone else wants to weigh in on Fred or on other math curricula, I'm all ears! :)

 

(P.S.  Forgive me if this post is disjointed.  I'm watching the gold medal women's curling game between Canada and Sweden as I'm typing.)

 

(P.P.S.  We won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[Sunshine State Sue]

Is Jacobs considered a solid geo text?  Does Foerster have a geo text, Sue?

 

Yes about Jacob's.  In fact, it's the only Geometry text repeatedly talked about here on the boards.  Foerster's does not have Gemoetry.

[Dicentra]

Yes about Jacob's.  In fact, it's the only Geometry text repeatedly talked about here on the boards.  Foerster's does not have Gemoetry.

 

Thanks, Sue!

[Jen in NY]

Dicentra - if you do pick up a copy of AoPS Algebra, make sure you also get the Teacher's Manual. Lots of important info in the explanations.

[Dicentra]

Dicentra - if you do pick up a copy of AoPS Algebra, make sure you also get the Teacher's Manual. Lots of important info in the explanations.

 

Thanks, Jen!

 

Do you (or anyone else) have a sense of how AoPS compares to LoF in terms of difficulty?  I know AoPS is more rigorous but I'm wondering how much more rigorous.  Maybe I'm trying to compare apples and oranges, though.  Maybe the goal of the two programs is completely different.

 

Thoughts?

[Jen in NY]

I can't really compare the math content - we used LoF very briefly, but my dds weren't enthralled with the narrative format. ('Just the facts' kind of kids, I guess.)

[In The Great White North]

 

 

Do you (or anyone else) have a sense of how AoPS compares to LoF in terms of difficulty?  I know AoPS is more rigorous but I'm wondering how much more rigorous.  Maybe I'm trying to compare apples and oranges, though.  Maybe the goal of the two programs is completely different.

 

My personal opinion:

 

Hardest - AOPS.  Discovery based.  Try the problems, then read their solution to see if you got it the same way.

                 Extrapolate the theory to more complicated problems.

 

               - Life of Fred - Not discovery based.  Fred explains in the story.  You try a few problems and read the

                 answers.  The Cities get progressively harder but never to the impossible point of the AOPS Challenge

                 Problems.  You won't spend a day trying to figure out one problem.

 

              -  Foerster - Step by step instructions.  Tons of problems.  Story problems are more straightforward.

 

Easiest - Dolciani Classic - Step by step instruction.  Easier problems.  Fewer and easier story problems.

 

Obviously, there are style differences that probably influenced my ranking.  

 

These are based on the Advanced Algebra/ Intermediate Algebra/ Algebra II books.

 

HTH

[Dicentra]

My personal opinion:

 

Hardest - AOPS.  Discovery based.  Try the problems, then read their solution to see if you got it the same way.

                 Extrapolate the theory to more complicated problems.

 

               - Life of Fred - Not discovery based.  Fred explains in the story.  You try a few problems and read the

                 answers.  The Cities get progressively harder but never to the impossible point of the AOPS Challenge

                 Problems.  You won't spend a day trying to figure out one problem.

 

              -  Foerster - Step by step instructions.  Tons of problems.  Story problems are more straightforward.

 

Easiest - Dolciani Classic - Step by step instruction.  Easier problems.  Fewer and easier story problems.

 

Obviously, there are style differences that probably influenced my ranking.  

 

These are based on the Advanced Algebra/ Intermediate Algebra/ Algebra II books.

 

HTH

 

Thanks, ItGWN! :)

[Julie of KY]

With my weepy (boy), I am introducing algebra topics with Dolciani and then he's ready to tackle AoPS. My intention is to work through the challenge problems with him as he gets frustrated. Thanks for reminding my of Fred -it'd be right up his ally.

 

I am taking algebra slowly with this boy. As he solidifies Allegra, I'm introducing geometry and probability.

 

I haven't compared the levels of Fred to AoPS, but my oldest math loving boy who has thrived on AoPS says that Fred isn't nearly as hard as AoPS. He reads Fred for fun.