Struggles in Math - something more?

[naturally]

DS is 9 1/2 yo. Considered 4th grade but working more at 3rd. (Can't get over the PS mindset!) He hates math. Really dislikes most of it. He likes geometry aspects of measuring, shapes, rays, etc. Kinda likes multiplication. Ok with addition. HATES subtraction - he really struggles with it, even basic facts.

Working on borrowing today and discovered a problem. He sees the problems differently than written. For instance, the problem is 649-271. He sees (and writes when asked to copy onto the board) 679-241. He "sees" the larger number on top. We sat down and did 15 different problems and each one he does the same - subtracts the smaller number from the larger number no matter the position they are in. Is the normal or is there something more there I need to check into?

I hate seeing him so frustrated and hating school.

[sixpence1978]

Base 10 blocks really help with this if you have them.  If not, you could use bundles of sticks or pipecleaners.  I would build the top number out of the blocks (or alternate), then work through the problem, subtracting blocks as you go.  Do this over and over and over again.  It will eventually stick.  This was a trouble spot for my DD as well until we made it as hands on as possible for as long as was needed.

[PeterPan]

DS is 9 1/2 yo. Considered 4th grade but working more at 3rd. (Can't get over the PS mindset!) He hates math. Really dislikes most of it. He likes geometry aspects of measuring, shapes, rays, etc. Kinda likes multiplication. Ok with addition. HATES subtraction - he really struggles with it, even basic facts.

Working on borrowing today and discovered a problem. He sees the problems differently than written. For instance, the problem is 649-271. He sees (and writes when asked to copy onto the board) 679-241. He "sees" the larger number on top. We sat down and did 15 different problems and each one he does the same - subtracts the smaller number from the larger number no matter the position they are in. Is the normal or is there something more there I need to check into?

I hate seeing him so frustrated and hating school.

What I'm not precisely clear on is what exactly is happening.  Is he looking at a book, remembering the numbers, and copying them onto the board?  Does it happen if you give him only the 649?  If you tell him orally?  And then when he going to solve, is he comfortable doing the borrowing/trades for 649-271, or is that hard for him?  I'm asking, because you could be seeing a working memory issue, where he gets the 6 digits and it just all gets glitchy.  That's one thing I'd work to eliminate or narrow down.  If you give him the first number, can he write it correctly?  Then the next one?  See, there you're narrowing down that it wasn't his working memory scrambling things.  You could also be seeing a vision problem there.  Just depends on exactly what's happening.

 

As far as how to approach it, I like RightStart's approach using the Station Game and multiple manipulatives.  So you form the first quantity on the abacus, c-rods, place value cards, base 10 picture cards, all the ways you have available, then go back and form the 2nd quantity the same way.  Now, for each of those manipulatives, do the math, doing the subtraction.  So do the subtraction with the c-rods, the place value cards, the base 10 picture cards, the abacus, and finally the written.  If you do this, they discover the trading for themselves.  RightStart has them do all the trades FIRST, then go through and subtract from the left.  Your ds might enjoy this method.

 

Check out RightStart.  They have a placement test, and he could go into the Transitions book.  It would be an inexpensive way for you to give him fresh perspective on some of the things he's struggling with.  You could use the Transitions book to fill in his holes and then keep going with your current curriculum if you wanted. I haven't looked at how they sell it lately, but make sure you get the place value cards and base 10 picture cards.  They're super inexpensive (get 2 sets of the place value cards!) and you'd get a ton of use out of them right now.  They used to be around $3 or $4.  

 

Btw, kids who are super good at geometry and struggle with computation and facts can turn out to be VSL.

[EmilyGF]

I'm seconding OhElizabeth's rec of RightStart. We passed on our abacus to a friend but my daughter is struggling with some concepts, and I realized it wasn't even worth it to try to have her do them without the abacus. I just ordered another one.

 

RightStart covers topics in multiple ways that really dig into the concept. For example, in counting by 5s, you counted nickels, later learned to count around the clock, made groups of 5, looked at 5s on the abacus, and other things I don't remember (that was a while ago...). This took about a week, with one lesson for each approach.

 

My daughter has done something similar to what your son has done, even when I write the problems down for her because it is easier! No carrying! I don't think she tries to.

 

Emily

[EKS]

What you're describing is a common problem and stems from kids seeing multidigit subtraction as a trick using columns of numbers rather than understanding the concept behind regrouping.  You're going to want to back up and use base ten blocks and other manipulatives to help him understand what he's' actually doing when he uses the algorithm. 

 

Also teach him to subtract mentally.  So, for example, 43-26 can be thought of as 43-6 is 37 and 37-20 is 17.  Not only is being able to do the mental computation helpful in general, it gets the point across that you're subtracting a number, 26, from another number, 43, and you're not performing magic on a column with a 3 and a 6 and another column with a 4 and a 2.

 

If you're looking for math programs that teach this particularly well--Math U See, RightStart, and Singapore are all good choices.

[Bree]

Have you had his eyes checked. My ds generally only struggles with subtraction with borrowing and we found out for him he needed glasses.