meeting tomorrow with top in-state option---advice on questions to ask

[8filltheheart]

Tomorrow afternoon ds has an appt with the head of the dept of his top public in-state option. At this pt, I am not sure where it actually falls in his over all options, but the other in-state option made him quite irritated, so I think he has marked them off his list. This is the school I mentioned in the other thread about earning masters while undergrad and ds has decided not to actually pursue his masters degree based on the feedback from that thread.

 

I am definitely not sure what I think about the option, though, and could use some advice on questions to ask.

 

He knows he can get involved in research and the head of the dept is taking him around to see the research facilities and is going to discuss what his options are for getting involved in research as a freshman. He also knows that ds wants to discuss his options for grad courses as an undergrad.

 

Any suggestions on specific questions? (I know the main one ds wants answered is where do their grads get accepted into grad school) What else? Are there specific lab things he should be looking for? How about answers? How do we know if an answer is good or not?? (I would NEVER have thought that getting a masters degree might be a negative!!)

 

I am very overwhelmed by this responsibility in guiding our ds. When I look at the below, I wonder if he goes this route is it a really bad decision? An ok decision? A good decision b/c of the research and grad level courses he will have?

[regentrude]

I am not entirely sure what you are asking and what it has to do with the course requirements. (your listing is formatted weird, so I have a hard time understanding.)

I went to the school's website and looked at it there;  it looks like a pretty typical schedule to me, except that I have no idea what ""professional electives" are.

Are Solid State and Plasma the only physics electives? Seems strange.

 

A few questions he might want to ask are:

How easy is it to get into undergraduate research? What percentage of students is involved?

What opportunities are there for summer research? Do the undergrads of this institution get into competetive summer programs?

Into which grad schools did previous students admitted?

 

I do not remember whether you mentioned: does he want to be done faster? If not, he might want to ask about a double major.

[8filltheheart]

I am not entirely sure what you are asking and what it has to do with the course requirements (your listing is formatted weird, so I have a hard time understanding.)

What are "professional electives"?

Are Solid State and Plasma the only physics electives? Seems strange.

Basically, it looks like a pretty typical schedule to me.

 

 

A few questions he might want to ask are:

How easy is it to get into undergraduate research? What percentage of students is involved?

What opportunities are there for summer research? Do the undergrads of this institution get into competetive summer programs?

Into which grad schools did previous students admitted?

 

I do not remember whether you mentioned: does he want to be done faster? If not, he might want to ask about a double major.

 

I didn't realize it posted.   I thought I had only hit preview!  I was trying to figure out the formatting issues!   Here is the rest of the post!

 

 

He knows he can get involved in research and the head of the dept is taking him around to see the research facilities and is going to discuss what his options are for getting involved in research as a freshman.    He also knows that ds wants to discuss his options for grad courses as an undergrad.  

 

Any suggestions on specific questions?  (I know the main one ds wants answered is where do their grads get accepted into grad school)   What else?   Are their specific lab things he should be looking for?   How about answers?   How do we know if an answer is good or not??   (I would NEVER have thought that getting a masters degree might be a negative!!)

 

I am very overwhelmed by this responsibility in guiding our ds.     When I look at the above, I wonder if he goes this route is it a really bad  decision?  An ok decision?   A good decision b/c of the research and grad level courses he will have?

[regentrude]

He knows he can get involved in research and the head of the dept is taking him around to see the research facilities and is going to discuss what his options are for getting involved in research as a freshman.    He also knows that ds wants to discuss his options for grad courses as an undergrad.  

 

Any suggestions on specific questions?  (I know the main one ds wants answered is where do their grads get accepted into grad school)   What else?   Are their specific lab things he should be looking for?   How about answers?   How do we know if an answer is good or not??   (I would NEVER have thought that getting a masters degree might be a negative!!)

 

I am very overwhelmed by this responsibility in guiding our ds.     When I look at the above, I wonder if he goes this route is it a really bad  decision?  An ok decision?   A good decision b/c of the research and grad level courses he will have?

 

Honestly: I do not really think it matters all that much where he goes for his undergraduate degree, as long as it is a research university. Students shape the education they get to a much larger degree than one would think.

The basic things need to be OK: credits transfer, research opportunities, grad level courses as an undergraduate. "Good" answers there are "yes! you can!", LOL.

The visit will also serve to get a vibe for the department without asking explicit questions: is the department functional, do the professors get along with each other? Difficult to judge for a visitor, but he should observe how professors are they talking about their colleagues, and how they interact with each other.

He might want to ask whether there is an SPS (Society of Physics students) chapter and how the department encourages the students to develop cameraderie, which I consider very important. (Ours has a designated SPS room in teh department building where physics students hang out between classes and work on homework... lots of laughter emanates form that room, so they must be having a good time.)

He should talk to some students to get a feel for the climate.

 

[8filltheheart]

Thanks Regentrude.    I guess I am really concerned about whether or not this school will impact his options for graduate school.   As far as graduating early.....he goes back and forth on that issue.   Double majoring (math and physics) is definitely an option.     He is not a kid that doubling up on the core humanities is a good decision!  :p   Those he is going to want to spread out and not load up in a single semester. 

 

ETA:   and cameraderie is definitely important for this ds.   He is most definitely not a cut-throat competitive type of kid.   He likes working with people and bouncing ideas off of others.   I do wonder about some of his options which seem very high stress.......would they be high stress for him or would he eat it up?   I don't know!!!   :banghead:    I have no idea how to guide him on that issue!!   He loved the camp he went to which was high stress but fun for him......but that was for a few weeks, not yrs!

 

Blech.....this is one time I really wish I had greater insight into higher ed than I possess.   I definitely feel like the blind leading the kid who definitely knows way more than me!!!!

[EmilyGF]

8, I'm not sure what your state university is, but I do think it matters that he isn't at a "podunk" school. My husband is head of the admissions committee at a top-10 astrophysics department and they look with skepticism at students who were a big fish in a really small pond.

 

Undergrad research is the top priority if he wants to go to grad school. Ideally he would research part time each year with a different professor and then turn that into a full time research position each summer. Then he would have three really good recommendations come grad school time.

 

Have you posted what other schools he applied to? My husband and I went to Caltech and found the cameraderie amazing - the students were competing against the curriculum, not each other. Also, the electricity of research was igniting the campus.

 

Emily

 

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

I'm running out the door in a minute, so I only have time for a couple quick thoughts.

 

Can he arrange to meet or have lunch with one of the physic dept's current senior students, preferably one who is on the grad school track? Yes, ask about grad school placement.

 

Successful research match-ups between students & profs depends not only on ability, but also to a large part on intangibles like personalities. Definitely try to get a department vibe tomorrow. Does it seem like a friendly place? How many profs have their doors open? Are they interacting with students? Are there students working in the labs?

 

Like Emily said, the schools in the Caltech category are full of the same kinds of kids that your ds experienced at camp last summer. My non-competitive kids have not found the cut throat vibe at all. Kids work together & collaborate all the time. It's great fun to be with students who love learning as much as you do! What IS hard, though, is the level and pace of the curriculum and the fact that grading is much harder than in high school classes. When you fill a class with high achieving valedictorian types, not everyone is going to remain a straight A student. Who thrives there is more dependent on personality. Do they enjoy a challenge & can they roll with not always (or even ever) being the "best" in the class...The kids whom I've seen give up at MIT & Caltech are the ones who give up trying.

 

A couple more questions for tomorrow:

 

Do they have a transfer credit policy already in place between state schools? (like the one on the GA Tech website?) Seems like they should be able to give you a definitive answer on how your son's credits should transfer in, since it's all in-state.

 

Do they have freshman honors housing or any kind of choice of dorms?

 

got to run now!

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

My dd is in a similar situation.   But I don't really see the negative to getting a masters.  If it means that the time needed to gain a doctorate is shortened, then that to me, and to her, is a positive.   There's also the part of me that says you never know what life will bring, and if pursuing a doctorate has to be put on hold, at least they'd have their masters, although I do understand that a doctorate is needed for some fields.   I would definitely advise your son to ask them about the pros and cons of attaining a masters during his 4 years.   I admit, I'm curious about their answer. 

[Melissa B]

Sorry to hijack, could you direct/link me to the discussion on not pursuing a master's as an undergrad? I would like to see the potential cons.  Thanks!

[Teachin'Mine]

Melissa I think this is the link:   http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/491830-would-this-be-appropriate-for-email-contact-with-head-of-dept-re-earning-masters-simultaneously-with-bachelors/?hl=%2Bmasters&do=findComment&comment=5261480

 

Even after re-reading the thread, I don't really see a downside to the masters.  It just may be because I know nothing about masters degrees let alone doctorates. 

[raptor_dad]

I think the point is not that there is something wrong with a masters but rather that it has a potentially large opportunity cost.

 

A strong undergrad w/ research and published papers  >> undergrad w/ course based masters

A strong undergrad w/ research and published papers > undergrad w/ thesis based masters

A strong undergrad w/ research experiences  = strong undergrad w/ course based masters

 

The masters at a weaker school isn't likely to save any time on a phd at a stronger school so the benefit is limited. Focus on getting those research experiences and move on to graduate school at your terminal school when appropriate. Don't stick around in a weak program solely to get a weak credential. Sticking around for good mentoring, good research opportunities, etc my be worthwhile...

 

EDIT: My post applies to grad school admission. A masters my be more useful in the professions, especially those involving government hiring.

[Teachin'Mine]

Raptor Dad that makes sense.  You assuming the masters would be from a school with a weak graduate program.  What if it was done in a school with a strong graduate program?   Would having the masters, with the research and publication, be better than not having it?

[8filltheheart]

Melissa I think this is the link:   http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/491830-would-this-be-appropriate-for-email-contact-with-head-of-dept-re-earning-masters-simultaneously-with-bachelors/?hl=%2Bmasters&do=findComment&comment=5261480

 

Even after re-reading the thread, I don't really see a downside to the masters.  It just may be because I know nothing about masters degrees let alone doctorates.

 

 

Raptor dad's answer is what we now understand. Also, he is most definitely planning on pursuing a phD. And he wants to attend a top school for grad school.

 

 

I think the point is not that there is something wrong with a masters but rather that it has a potentially large opportunity cost.

 

A strong undergrad w/ research and published papers  >> undergrad w/ course based masters

A strong undergrad w/ research and published papers > undergrad w/ thesis based masters

A strong undergrad w/ research experiences  = strong undergrad w/ course based masters

 .

I like the way you listed that. It makes it simple to understand.

  

Raptor Dad that makes sense.  You assuming the masters would be from a school with a weak graduate program.  What if it was done in a school with a strong graduate program?   Would having the masters, with the research and publication, be better than not having it?

Well, I stated it was a weaker school. So, it was a good assumption. ;)

[raptor_dad]

Raptor Dad that makes sense.  You assuming the masters would be from a school with a weak graduate program.  What if it was done in a school with a strong graduate program?   Would having the masters, with the research and publication, be better than not having it?

 

Well, if you are at a school with a strong graduate program, you are unliklely to be able to place out of enough courses to to have the graduate early/ get a masters dilema. IF you do you should ask your mentor.... OR you should consider this before enrolling. I don't think there is a clear answer of whether it is better to get a cheap or free BS at your state flagship(or elsewhere) and go on to grad school somewhere high powered vs paying more for a prestigious undergrad degree before going on to grad school. That would depend on your kids' needs and your financial situation. However, I think generally my advice stands.... even a terminal masters from a prestigious school has limited utility for grad school vs a BS with high powered research experience.

[8filltheheart]

. Who thrives there is more dependent on personality. Do they enjoy a challenge & can they roll with not always (or even ever) being the "best" in the class...The kids whom I've seen give up at MIT & Caltech are the ones who give up trying.!

Other than finances, I think this is the crux of the issue. Ds thrives on challenge and wilts in boredom. He is constantly asking his professors here for more. His math prof just gave him a book on some topic that I am clueless about and told him it would answer some of his questions. He tries to solve his physics problems via multiple approaches vs just one.........

 

I guess other students probably look at him and think " too much time on your hands" whereas the reality is that he is just very intellectually curious and wants to understand himself bc he understands vs being told this is something and now you know.

 

It is all of that that makes me worry about where he goes. If he goes somewhere where he is so far ahead of the curve, will he end up stifled even if he can take grad classes?

[regentrude]

It is all of that that makes me worry about where he goes. If he goes somewhere where he is so far ahead of the curve, will he end up stifled even if he can take grad classes?

 

No, I do not think so. Maybe his classes will not be really challenging, but every class is a jumping board for diving into new and exciting stuff. His learning will not be limited to the mandatory class content; the class can inspire additional reading, research, questions, discussion.

His professors will be thrilled to have him asking the deeper questions - they may have to defer some of those until after class if they are completely over the head of the other students, but every physics professor I know is delighted to be able to discuss physics with a gifted and interested student. And having somebody do undergraduate research who is passionate and capable, that's a dream.

I don't think you need to worry. As I said in a previous post, the student is instrumental in shaping his education, and your son will be able to seek out those extra opportunities that go above and beyond, even if classwork is not at the highest level he is capable of.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Other than finances, I think this is the crux of the issue. Ds thrives on challenge and wilts in boredom. He is constantly asking his professors here for more. His math prof just gave him a book on some topic that I am clueless about and told him it would answer some of his questions. He tries to solve his physics problems via multiple approaches vs just one.........

 

I guess other students probably look at him and think " too much time on your hands" whereas the reality is that he is just very intellectually curious and wants to understand himself bc he understands vs being told this is something and now you know.

 

It is all of that that makes me worry about where he goes. If he goes somewhere where he is so far ahead of the curve, will he end up stifled even if he can take grad classes?

 

Is he going to sit in any physics major classes tomorrow? That should give him a feel for their students. I agree with regentrude that he would find opportunities to learn anywhere. I know your ds & think that the profs would adore having him as a student. But I also know him well enough to agree that he'd thrive in an environment where there's a critical mass of fellow students like himself. Physics departments tend to attract an intellectual crowd, so that's a good thing.

 

Another thought -- google physics REUs (summer research experiences for undergraduates). A quick search turned up lots of stuff for me. Ask tomorrow whether this school's physics department sends any of its major to these programs. And he definitely should look into them! They'd make up for a weaker school cohort by giving him a summer peer group.

 

Please report back after you get home tomorrow. I'm eager to hear how it goes!

[Teachin'Mine]

8 I hope it's a great visit today!

 

Yes, I knew that you're visiting a "weaker" state school, but I was asking if his advice would be the same if a stronger school were considered.  I was curious as we're considering the same types of questions.  :001_smile:    He said his advice to forgo the masters for more research would still be the same.  But I'm still not convinced that an advanced student who's willing to work hard would need to sacrifice research in order to complete the work required for a masters.   Really looking forward to what you come away with after your son meets with them.

 

As for the type of school, yes a good student can do well anywhere, but wouldn't it be amazing for them to be able to be with others like them?   For some, this would be the first time they'd have that experience.  Your son has been fortunate to experience that already, and he loved it.   Personally, I would be checking into some of the top physics programs as I think you'd be surprised how generous they will likely be with financial aid.   I'm sure that they will take the size of your family into account and love students like your son who are passionate about their area of interest.   Keep the others as a safety, but explore other options.  JMO.

[MBM]

Other than finances, I think this is the crux of the issue. Ds thrives on challenge and wilts in boredom. He is constantly asking his professors here for more. His math prof just gave him a book on some topic that I am clueless about and told him it would answer some of his questions. He tries to solve his physics problems via multiple approaches vs just one.........

 

I guess other students probably look at him and think " too much time on your hands" whereas the reality is that he is just very intellectually curious and wants to understand himself bc he understands vs being told this is something and now you know.

 

It is all of that that makes me worry about where he goes. If he goes somewhere where he is so far ahead of the curve, will he end up stifled even if he can take grad classes?

 

I think your son should try for the schools that will challenge him the most. From my observation, kids who are curious and academically motivated -- and your son is very much so -- don't thrive when surrounded by peers who are not. JMHO.

 

These schools are often expensive but I think your son would have a good shot at getting something like a SMART scholarship.  http://smart.asee.org

 

Good luck to him!

[flyingiguana]

Tomorrow afternoon ds has an appt with the head of the dept of his top public in-state option. At this pt, I am not sure where it actually falls in his over all options, but the other in-state option made him quite irritated, so I think he has marked them off his list. This is the school I mentioned in the other thread about earning masters while undergrad and ds has decided not to actually pursue his masters degree based on the feedback from that thread.

 

I'd keep in mind that he could always earn a 2nd masters degree if the first one turns out to be less than what he wanted.  Doesn't have to be in the exact same field.

 

I think it may be best to make decisions based on where we are NOW rather than a misty future.  If that masters while he's doing a bachelors fulfills his need for challenge, if that's the best way he can get that challenge, then maybe it's a good thing, even if it wasn't at the world's most stellar college.

 

If he's got some better option that's just a bachelors, then maybe not.  But I wouldn't dismiss the concurrent masters out of hand just because it wouldn't look prestigious enough.

 

Also I'm kind of doubting that those of us on this forum have all the information we'd need to be able to give solid advice on whether or not to do that concurrent masters.