Would this be appropriate for email contact with head of dept? Re: earning masters simultaneously with bachelors

[8filltheheart]

Ds and I have been looking over the 4 yr plan for one of the schools that has been a possibility of his attending, but not the "favorite." (He has already been accepted.) He is so far advanced into their 4 yr plan (beyond their math requirements for majors and will be at 1st semester jr status for major by the end of the yr.) He has already spoken with the dept head once and confirmed that taking graduate level courses as an undergrad is not a problem. However, after really looking over their site, he believes he could definitely complete their master's level requirements while earning his undergrad. (they have both a thesis and a non-thesis masters.....I am not educated enough in this to even know if that matters when he plans on pursuing his PhD.)

 

Would it be appropriate for him to email the dept head his transcript and course descriptions for math/physics and ask if earning a masters simultaneously is even a possibility? If so, it would move this school closer to the top of his list. Or would emailing his transcript directly to the dept head be a no-no? Or should he write a generic email offering to send a copy of them in connection to the question? (fwiw, this school does not offer a 5 yr masters program like many schools do.)

[regentrude]

If he goes on to earning a PhD,  a masters with just classes will not matter; a masters with research and a thesis might give an edge for admission to grad school.

It would be better to call and talk to the department chair directly; this is too complicated to sort it out by email. But it would absolutely be appropriate to ask!

[Candid]

If he goes on to earning a PhD,  a masters with just classes will not matter; a masters with research and a thesis might give an edge for admission to grad school.

It would be better to call and talk to the department chair directly; this is too complicated to sort it out by email. But it would absolutely be appropriate to ask!

 

:iagree:

 

The only place I diverge is on calling. A high school student might not be able to handle the complexity of this in a call or the politics of it. If you do go call, prep the student, including maybe running a "grumpy, busy department chair"  practice run or two. 

[kiana]

It's totally appropriate to ask.

 

Was he planning on using summers for this? Because there are other things which would give a bigger edge than a master's for admission into graduate school. I'm thinking specifically of undergraduate research experiences, where a student can often get paid to spend their summer doing math and often get a publishable paper or at least a conference presentation as a result. This is an advantage when looking at graduate school admissions.

 

If he can fit it in without using summers, I'd probably go for taking the coursework. Whether or not to actually take the master's degree will be a later decision -- some phd programs treat entering students with a master's differently than entering students with only a bachelor's with respect to time to degree, funding, etc. But he'll have a few more years to make that decision.

Ds and I have been looking over the 4 yr plan for one of the schools that has been a possibility of his attending, but not the "favorite."  (He has already been accepted.)  He is so far advanced into their 4 yr plan (beyond their math requirements for majors and will be at 2nd semester jr status for major by the end of the yr.)   He has already spoken with the dept head once and confirmed that taking graduate level courses as an undergrad is not a problem.   However, after really looking over their site, he believes he could definitely complete their master's level requirements while earning his undergrad. (they have both a thesis and a non-thesis masters.....I am not educated enough in this to even know if that matters when he plans on pursuing his PhD.)

 

Would it be appropriate for him to email the dept head his transcript and course descriptions for math/physics and ask if earning a masters simultaneously is even a possibility?   If so, it would move this school closer to the top of his list.  Or would emailing his transcript directly to the dept head be a no-no?    Or should he write a generic email offering to send a copy of them in connection  to the question?   (fwiw, this school does not offer a 5 yr masters program like many schools do.)

 

It is definitely appropriate to ask, and I suspect that different institutions vary greatly.

 

I might phrase the question a bit differently though, something like "According to my current plan, I'll finish my major requirements my 2nd year here, but will need several extra semesters after that just to fill out the gen ed requirements to get my BA/BS. I want to continue with my studies in my major then, what should I take?"  Things to consider:  will graduate classes taken before the BA/BS is finished "count" towards graduate work if I stay at the same school?  Will they also count as undergraduate credits for things like maximum credit limit, etc.? i.e. is it like dual-enrollment?  Often graduate school is more expensive than undergrad, what rate would those classes be charged at? What if I go to graduate school somewhere else?  Will these classes "transfer"?  Some fields or institutions look down on doing graduate work at the same institution as undergrad, I'd ask if that's likely to be a problem in this field/school.

[8filltheheart]

Ok.   We hadn't considered that there might be drawbacks to earning his masters.     Perhaps fleshing out some of the details might help you give me better advice for guiding him??

 

The school in question for undergrad is a well-known school, but it falls into a really good school type category vs. top in the field type school.   He knows that if he goes to the top schools he is going to lose he "credits" and will have to start at freshman.   He has also been told by multiple physicists that where he completes his undergrad is not nearly as important as where he earns his grad and $$ is a serious issue for our family.  We already know that he will get significant merit aid that the "good" school whereas at "top" schools......we don't have a clue.

 

So, say he went to the "good" school and earned his masters in physics while an undergrad, would those classes hurt him if say he wanted to attend MIT for grad?   (he has zero interest in attending the "good" school for grad school.)

 

To answer another question raised, he should be able to replace all the required math and physics courses he has already completed (he will have 6 math classes, they require 4 and he will have 2 chemistry courses and 5 physics courses, so 11 total required classes) with the masters classes.    So, it might add an additional semester or so for him to complete everything (but I am not even sure of that if the grad courses could also be used as electives??)    This is way out of our area of knowing or understanding anything!!   We only have bachelors, so this is all new territory.

 

FWIW, he wants to get involved in research right away.   He is in the process of waiting to hear from a professor about a paper he is hoping to have published.   So this would definitely not be in lieu of research.

[kiana]

I think it would be best for him to talk with the professor at the school and ask these questions in detail, including how he thinks it would be viewed by graduate schools, etc. But he should definitely take the advanced courses -- there would be no issue there. They will help him and not hurt him. If the school judges them to not be good enough, they will just say 'take this course over again, but it's great that you have the background from your previous course.' The only question would be whether he would formally take the master's.

 

I'm in math, not physics, so take what follows with a grain of salt.

 

In many cases, more would be expected from a student who already had a master's degree versus a student who had simply completed an unusually challenging bachelor's degree. Many of the other students applying for the very top graduate schools will also have taken graduate coursework in undergrad. A student who began with a master's may have from 1-2 fewer years to finish the PhD (may be an issue if the dissertation goes down the wrong path at first and necessitates a radical change of course) and may need to take qualifying exams earlier. Of course, this depends on the school.

[8filltheheart]

Thank you for the great feedback.   So it sounds like there would be no repercussions to the graduate courses, but there could be if he earned an actual masters.    I am so glad I asked!!   You all are so awesome and full of knowledge!!  :)  

 

 

[regentrude]

The school in question for undergrad is a well-known school, but it falls into a really good school type category vs. top in the field type school.   He knows that if he goes to the top schools he is going to lose he "credits" and will have to start at freshman.   He has also been told by multiple physicists that where he completes his undergrad is not nearly as important as where he earns his grad and $$ is a serious issue for our family.  We already know that he will get significant merit aid that the "good" school whereas at "top" schools......we don't have a clue.

 

So, say he went to the "good" school and earned his masters in physics while an undergrad, would those classes hurt him if say he wanted to attend MIT for grad?   (he has zero interest in attending the "good" school for grad school.)

 

I can not imagine why it would hurt his chances for admission to graduate school at a very top school. Worst case scenario: they ask him to retake some of the graduate coursework at their institution if they feel that their own course is stronger.

 

We get grad students all the time who have taken graduate coursework elsewhere, and for the good students we accept the credit. (OTOH, we may require some grad students with weaknesses to repeat some undergraduate courses.)

[flyingiguana]

I can not imagine why it would hurt his chances for admission to graduate school at a very top school. Worst case scenario: they ask him to retake some of the graduate coursework at their institution if they feel that their own course is stronger.

 

Exactly.

 

I suspect that most science grad depts are not nearly as prestige conscious as the general public thinks they are.  The ones I've been involved in take students based on ability, not where they got this or that degree.  And the students perform as well as they want to/are able, regardless of where they got their undergrad or last master's degree.

 

Once one enters the PhD world, you realize that master's degrees are a dime a dozen.  Some people pick them up like candy (particularly if they have a university job with a tuition benefit).  This doesn't mean that the master's degree is worthless, but that most grad schools don't get all bothered by them "not being from the right school".  It's just about always a benefit to have one, particularly if it means you got some of the grad classes out of the way already.  I have never, in all my experience, seen it to be negative.

 

If it's from a REALLY bad school, then maybe it would just be a waste of time and money (but not a detriment otherwise), but I'm thinking that a school that was that bad might not even be fully accredited.  Or might be an obvious for-profit, swindle type school.