Lingua Latina users - why only as a supplement? What about LL as only text?

[Robin in Tx]

I'm still thinking about using LL as a supplement reader to Henle, but I see that Potter's School Latin uses only LL. So that got me thinking, "Why not?"

 

So, why not use just LL? Is there something lacking in the program that causes you to use it only as a reading supplement?

 

I've searched the forums for conversations about LL as a stand alone text but nothing came up.

 

Like I said, I'm leaning towards Henle/LL, but I'm also feeling a little overwhelmed by the prospect of spending that much time and effort on Latin.

 

I think I might prefer a systematic, planned, pick up and go, don't worry about figuring out what to do next approach.

 

Thanks for any input,

Robin

[LisaNY]

Robin, you absolutely *can* use LL as a stand-alone text. Many people do, including myself, for my own self-study of Latin. Everything you need for Latin study is present in Lingua Latina. The new College Companion makes things even easier, as it offers full explanations of the grammar for each chapter in *English*.

 

All of that being said, you must keep in mind that it is different from the standard grammar/translation approach, as it does not provide complete grammar paradigms up front. It only provides you with the portions you are actively using at the time, adding other portions in as you come to them. It is "whole-to-parts" as opposed to "parts-to-whole". Some find this frustrating. It makes more sense for them to have it all up front in a nice, neat chart so it can be memorized/chanted. With the "standard" method, grammar is practiced via translation exercises from Latin to English and E to L.

 

LL, on the other hand, introduces new grammar/vocabulary via a running storyline. The student sees the grammar "in action", so to speak, becoming familiar with how it works in *context*. There are grammar/comprehension exercises at the end of each chapter, as well as in the Exercitia, which is a separate text. This is a true immersion text, as everything is in Latin - no English translations/explanations whatsoever. LL gets the student reading "Latin as Latin" right from the start. I think students of LL are going to be reading real Latin authors sooner than those taught by the grammar/translation method. Just my opinion, but it is shared by others who use this method.

 

Now, here is the rub. LL is a bit harder for a non-Latin teacher to teach. You have to intuit some things, and judge whether or not to hold off on teaching certain concepts. You will need to work through the text yourself, in order to know what is going on both in the story, and in the underlying grammar lesson. Unless, of course you have a more mature, highly motivated student who is willing/able to work through the tough spots without your help. There is an online LL group, which is mostly comprised of Latin teachers. Very helpful bunch!

 

There is also the option of having your dd take the online class through The Potter's School. Dave Spotts is a great guy, and he is a dedicated teacher.

 

Again, LL can be used as a stand-alone text. It is just not as straightforward/pick-up-and-go as a text like Henle would be.

 

Does that help?

[Cedarmom]

We finished Henle I last year. During the last half of the year, we used LL as a supplement. This year we will use LL as our main study. It is a great book, and we have enjoyed all the stories. However, I don't think I could have started it without the Henle. Without knowing Latin, I think just picking up the grammar intuitively would be difficult. It did help my son and I to better understand the grammar, because now we could see it in actual stories.

[Beth in Central TX]

There's a new study group for Lingua Latina here: http://www.geocities.com/dianarcus/arcus.html

It's a spin-off group from the Wheelock's LatinStudy list I'm on. Right now I'm working through both books.

 

I was going to have my older boys do Wheelock's and supplement with LL this year. However, as my DH was planning their work in Machen's NT Greek for Beginners, I felt that Wheelock's Latin on top of the Greek work was going to be too much for one year since both programs are very grammar intensive. Therefore, I've dropped Wheelock's for my boys, and I've planned LL as their main spine for Latin. I'll teach from Wheelock's when we hit a grammar concept that needs more instruction, but overall, I think LL will work fine on its own. I would recommend that you get the companion CD to go along with it: http://www.amazon.com/Lingua-Latina-CD-ROM-Familia-Romana-Interactive/dp/8790696085/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218215653&sr=8-1 FYI: This CD does use the classical pronunciation of Latin.

 

My plan this year is to work through Capitulum X or XI. We should finish this book over the next 3 years.

 

ETA: We've completed PL, LCI, LCII, and Basic Language Principles with Latin. The step to LL has been very natural for my boys so far. In addition, they really enjoy reading the passages aloud. I think this oral work has helped them solidify their understanding of the declensions they've been chanting all of these years.

 

HTH!

[Laurie in CA]

I have used Lingua Latina alone in the past after using a beginning grammar-intensive program first. I would definitely use it as a stand-alone if you have had some grammar first. About that companion cd, I think it will only work with a pc not a Mac (which is what I have) I ordered a Mac cd thinking it was the companion cd and it was actually the books 1 and 2. I was fine with it even though I already had book 1 because I photocopied pages from the book and made them translate. (I know, you're not supposed to translate) I still wish I had a voice to listen to on a cd though.:confused:

[Robin in Tx]

This is what we've studied so far: We completed LitCT Level 1. We covered: first conjugation and principal parts of verbs; indicative and imperative mood; first, second and third declension nouns; ablative, accusative and dative case usage (introduced vocative); conjugation of sum; conjunctions, prepositions, appositives, adjectives, adverbs. We did very well with some of the material (went pretty deep), but a lot of it was thin treatment. I think we need reinforcement before moving on.

 

Thank you all so much for the responses... it sounds like we've had enough latin grammar to start with LL. We can add Henle or maybe even Wheelocks later if it doesn't go well. Does that sound like a good plan?

 

Thanks again!

Robin

[latinteach]

I'm still thinking about using LL as a supplement reader to Henle, but I see that Potter's School Latin uses only LL. So that got me thinking, "Why not?"

 

So, why not use just LL? Is there something lacking in the program that causes you to use it only as a reading supplement?

 

I've searched the forums for conversations about LL as a stand alone text but nothing came up.

 

Like I said, I'm leaning towards Henle/LL, but I'm also feeling a little overwhelmed by the prospect of spending that much time and effort on Latin.

 

I think I might prefer a systematic, planned, pick up and go, don't worry about figuring out what to do next approach.

 

Thanks for any input,

Robin

 

Most of the people who use LL as a supplement do so because they don't have background knowledge in Latin. Many schools with experienced Latin teachers use it as a standalone text. You could certainly use it as a standalone text too. Jeanne Neumann's College Companion is a book that is a grammatical commentary (in English) and intended for homeschoolers and independent learners working through the book who don't have an experienced Latin teacher to guide them.

 

I've never liked the term "whole to parts" because it makes it sound like reading method/direct method texts are not systematically written and that students are just supposed to pull the inflections and syntactical structures out of the air, and that's not really true. These books are written in a very systematic, graded way that teaches specific concepts in a very purposeful order, but in a contextualized way.

 

You don't have to worry about what to do next with Lingua Latina -- if you use the College Companion text, Jeanne Neumann leads you through it in English. It always helps to have a scope and sequence for reading and direct method texts -- these tell you what the systematic order of grammar and syntax is being followed in these books.

[Beth in SW WA]

I still wish I had a voice to listen to on a cd though.:confused:

 

Pullins sells an audio cd of the text (I believe narrated by the author). Amazon sells it also.

 

Latine Audio for Familia Romana Cap. I-X

 

2005 • 1-58510-192-3 • audio CD • $24.95 | Buy this CD |

 

Contains an audio-recording of the first ten chapters of Familia Romana in the restored pronunciation of classical Latin.

[Beth in SW WA]

Robin,

Mr. Spotts might still have room in his beginning class at Potter School. My kiddos are registered.

[Tullia]

It sounds like you've already made a decision so I'm chiming in late. I'd agree with the earlier posts. The number one reason we're using LL as a supplement is my lack of Latin background. When I was trying to decide what to use, I didn't feel confident enough to try LL. I'm a plodder, and Henle was more doable. However, I think that combining the College Companion with the grammar you've already covered will give you the help you'll need to use LL as your main text. I have learned a lot from Henle, and it was probably the best choice at the time, but if I had a second child I'd definitely go with LL.

 

Martha

[LisaNY]

I've never liked the term "whole to parts" because it makes it sound like reading method/direct method texts are not systematically written and that students are just supposed to pull the inflections and syntactical structures out of the air, and that's not really true. These books are written in a very systematic, graded way that teaches specific concepts in a very purposeful order, but in a contextualized way.

 

 

 

Just to clarify - My use of the "whole-to-parts" term is really just to give a general idea of the differences between two approaches to teaching Latin. You are seeing the grammar as a "whole", being used in a contextual, meaningful way, as opposed to seeing the grammar as a "part", being practiced & used in a narrower, less contextual way.

 

I greatly admire Hans Oerberg's genius in approaching the teaching of Latin via a true immersion method. He displays definite, clearly thought out reasons for the way he presents the grammar, as well as how he times its coverage in the text. If it weren't for Lingua Latina, I would have given up on Latin long ago.

[LisaNY]

This is what we've studied so far: We completed LitCT Level 1. We covered: first conjugation and principal parts of verbs; indicative and imperative mood; first, second and third declension nouns; ablative, accusative and dative case usage (introduced vocative); conjugation of sum; conjunctions, prepositions, appositives, adjectives, adverbs. We did very well with some of the material (went pretty deep), but a lot of it was thin treatment. I think we need reinforcement before moving on.

 

Thank you all so much for the responses... it sounds like we've had enough latin grammar to start with LL. We can add Henle or maybe even Wheelocks later if it doesn't go well. Does that sound like a good plan?

 

Thanks again!

Robin

 

Robin, a few years ago, I helped a small group of students in my homeschool co-op. We went through LC I, 1/2 of LCII, and the first 2 1/2 Units of Henle. I then dropped Henle and switched completely over to LL mid-year. We made it through Chapter 8 of LL with no problems. The only problem I had was transitioning the students from the Henle method to the LL method. I had to continually stop them from translating everything they were reading. You will most likely encounter this w/your own dd as well. It takes time, but they do get used to just reading the Latin. :001_smile:

 

The College Companion will prove very helpful. If you feel you need a different explanation, then by all means, utilize Henle.

[Cedarmom]

Thank you all so much for the responses... it sounds like we've had enough latin grammar to start with LL. We can add Henle or maybe even Wheelocks later if it doesn't go well. Does that sound like a good plan?

Robin

 

Sounds like a great plan! If you get to something you don't understand just look in Henle or Wheelock. Don't be surpised if the transition is a little rough at first. With Henle, you are translating word for word, Lingua you understand the Latin by reading it in context. I think ( and actual experts think)that doing it that way is more condusive to actually reading Latin texts later, but it takes a while to switch your brain into that gear. Don't be afraid to go slow at first. I think the recommendation is to read the chapter 10 times.

[Spy Car]

Robin, you absolutely *can* use LL as a stand-alone text. Many people do, including myself, for my own self-study of Latin. Everything you need for Latin study is present in Lingua Latina. The new College Companion makes things even easier, as it offers full explanations of the grammar for each chapter in *English*.

 

All of that being said, you must keep in mind that it is different from the standard grammar/translation approach, as it does not provide complete grammar paradigms up front. It only provides you with the portions you are actively using at the time, adding other portions in as you come to them. It is "whole-to-parts" as opposed to "parts-to-whole". Some find this frustrating. It makes more sense for them to have it all up front in a nice, neat chart so it can be memorized/chanted. With the "standard" method, grammar is practiced via translation exercises from Latin to English and E to L.

 

LL, on the other hand, introduces new grammar/vocabulary via a running storyline. The student sees the grammar "in action", so to speak, becoming familiar with how it works in *context*. There are grammar/comprehension exercises at the end of each chapter, as well as in the Exercitia, which is a separate text. This is a true immersion text, as everything is in Latin - no English translations/explanations whatsoever. LL gets the student reading "Latin as Latin" right from the start. I think students of LL are going to be reading real Latin authors sooner than those taught by the grammar/translation method. Just my opinion, but it is shared by others who use this method.

 

Now, here is the rub. LL is a bit harder for a non-Latin teacher to teach. You have to intuit some things, and judge whether or not to hold off on teaching certain concepts. You will need to work through the text yourself, in order to know what is going on both in the story, and in the underlying grammar lesson. Unless, of course you have a more mature, highly motivated student who is willing/able to work through the tough spots without your help. There is an online LL group, which is mostly comprised of Latin teachers. Very helpful bunch!

 

There is also the option of having your dd take the online class through The Potter's School. Dave Spotts is a great guy, and he is a dedicated teacher.

 

Again, LL can be used as a stand-alone text. It is just not as straightforward/pick-up-and-go as a text like Henle would be.

 

Does that help?

 

:iagree: Lisa, in this (and the other posts in this thread) has expressed my thoughts better than I could.

 

I just learned of the "College Companion" to LL, and for *me* this will be a critical missing component to the program. I really, really like Lingua Latina, but there have been a few times where (working in isolation) I've stalled.

 

At times I've run to Wheelock's, or elsewhere for help, but how I wished for a "grammar" keyed to the lessons in LL. Now such a thing exists, and I'm thrilled to "re-start" with LL.

 

I think there is something quite exciting and useful to learning through "reading" Latin.

 

Bill

[Jackie in AR]

This is what we've studied so far: We completed LitCT Level 1. We covered: first conjugation and principal parts of verbs; indicative and imperative mood; first, second and third declension nouns; ablative, accusative and dative case usage (introduced vocative); conjugation of sum; conjunctions, prepositions, appositives, adjectives, adverbs. We did very well with some of the material (went pretty deep), but a lot of it was thin treatment. I think we need reinforcement before moving on.

 

Thank you all so much for the responses... it sounds like we've had enough latin grammar to start with LL. We can add Henle or maybe even Wheelocks later if it doesn't go well. Does that sound like a good plan?

 

Thanks again!

Robin

 

Yes, I think you've done quite enough to begin Lingua Latina. In fact, there are those who begin it with no prior latin experience.

 

My boys are taking an online class beginning in a couple of weeks that uses LL. The class is through Lone Pine Classical School, and there may be a spot or two left in the beginner class if you have an interest. Lone Pine meets twice per week, for 1 1/4 hours each time. If you have an interest, the new student / parent orientation meeting is this next week, and your dc must be signed up to attend.

[Jackie in AR]

Most of the people who use LL as a supplement do so because they don't have background knowledge in Latin. Many schools with experienced Latin teachers use it as a standalone text. You could certainly use it as a standalone text too.

 

Yes, this is it exactly.

 

I should have read down farther and placed my earlier post here.

[Laurie in CA]

Thanks Beth for the audio cd information. I will see if this will work for me.

[Robin in Tx]

I haven't made up my mind yet, and it definitely helps to know that you would return to LL as your sole text with another student. Thanks for chiming in. Hope all is well!

 

Robin

[Robin in Tx]

Thanks, Beth and Jackie, for the information about the online classes. I'm worried about doing anything online this year because I'm just not sure what pace we'll need to take, given our studies last year... I think I want to be able to slow down or speed up as needed. It is tempting, though... Thanks again!

[Beth in SW WA]

I think I want to be able to slow down or speed up as needed.

 

I would love that also, but w/o external pressure (the teacher expects the work done by a certain time) I'm afraid Latin would fall by the way-side (which I hear a lot when parents don't know Latin themselves).

 

Even if my kids "bomb" Mr. Spotts class (which is a possibility due to the rigor of his class) they will still gain more than if we did it at home on our own. Having other jr. highers to interact w/, as well as an experience teacher, will be a bonus (rather than mom, dd & ds around our kitchen table going "huh?") :)

 

But trust me, I understand your angst...

[Jackie in AR]

Thanks, Beth and Jackie, for the information about the online classes. I'm worried about doing anything online this year because I'm just not sure what pace we'll need to take, given our studies last year... I think I want to be able to slow down or speed up as needed. It is tempting, though... Thanks again!

 

Robin, Lone Pine Classical School offers an audit option that you might be interested in for this year.

 

Click on the link and scroll down to Some Advantages . . . Your dd would receive all the materials, and just listen in to the twice-weekly class sessions.

 

Good luck making your decision!

[Robin in Tx]

I would love that also, but w/o external pressure (the teacher expects the work done by a certain time) I'm afraid Latin would fall by the way-side (which I hear a lot when parents don't know Latin themselves).

 

Even if my kids "bomb" Mr. Spotts class (which is a possibility due to the rigor of his class) they will still gain more than if we did it at home on our own. Having other jr. highers to interact w/, as well as an experience teacher, will be a bonus (rather than mom, dd & ds around our kitchen table going "huh?") :)

 

 

 

 

I know what you mean! It's the only reason latin got done last year... I'm taking a huge risk, I know. There will definitely be a lot of "huh?" going on around our table next year! :)

[Robin in Tx]

Thanks, Jackie! That looks like a good alternative. I'll check into it.

 

Robin