Constructing a High School English Class, I feel I am missing something

[kangato3]

I have been closely following this thread and the other related one. I always like the idea of just using Well-Educated Mind as a springboard for discussion, but here's my dilemma - sometimes I feel that I'm not "getting" all that I should from a piece of literature, so how do I know if my kids are on the right track. I always read the books as well, but I don't have the confidence that I can lead a good discussion. I wish there was a "teacher's cheat sheet" for every book that made it clear the important symbolism, themes, etc. For that reason, I often fall back on study guides. I do spend time searching them out on the internet for ones that ask thoughtful questions. But then I run into the same problem - I sometimes can't answer the questions myself! This is becominig more of a problem with my 9th grade ds who doesn't see the connections, symbolism, etc that his big sis did when she read the same books. English is the one class that leaves me feeling inadequate each year, and one in which I feel offers the least satisfying options for outsourcing.

 

Advice needed and wanted!

[Robin in DFW]

I have been closely following this thread and the other related one. I always like the idea of just using Well-Educated Mind as a springboard for discussion, but here's my dilemma - sometimes I feel that I'm not "getting" all that I should from a piece of literature, so how do I know if my kids are on the right track. I always read the books as well, but I don't have the confidence that I can lead a good discussion. I wish there was a "teacher's cheat sheet" for every book that made it clear the important symbolism, themes, etc. For that reason, I often fall back on study guides. I do spend time searching them out on the internet for ones that ask thoughtful questions. But then I run into the same problem - I sometimes can't answer the questions myself! This is becominig more of a problem with my 9th grade ds who doesn't see the connections, symbolism, etc that his big sis did when she read the same books. English is the one class that leaves me feeling inadequate each year, and one in which I feel offers the least satisfying options for outsourcing.

 

Advice needed and wanted!

 

YES!!!

 

This is me! Same type/gender of kids, same experience. I feel like such a dud sometimes. Even when I use guides to give me the answers or springboard for discussion, I don't get it or don't get what they say I should get.

 

Robin

[Nscribe]

Kangato,

I suspect sometimes thoughtful people tend to "overthink" because it seems odd that the answers are as readily obvious as they seem. I see it when I work with teens, they hesitate to provide the answer they know because they think it can't be that obvious/easy. Knowing when it is that phenomenon or really not "getting it" is enough to keep us all very humble.

 

The good news: we are working in the high school context and if they go on to college they will encounter more thoughtful people who may get the its we don't. If you are reading along with your teen, checking study guides, thinking and searching....odds are you are getting it enough.

[Nscribe]

If you really are struggling with not getting what others (study guides and so forth) suggest should be gotten, reading books like "How to Read Literature Like a Professor", Adler's "How to Read a Book" and so forth may help.

[swimmermom3]

I have been closely following this thread and the other related one. I always like the idea of just using Well-Educated Mind as a springboard for discussion, but here's my dilemma - sometimes I feel that I'm not "getting" all that I should from a piece of literature, so how do I know if my kids are on the right track. I always read the books as well, but I don't have the confidence that I can lead a good discussion. I wish there was a "teacher's cheat sheet" for every book that made it clear the important symbolism, themes, etc. For that reason, I often fall back on study guides. I do spend time searching them out on the internet for ones that ask thoughtful questions. But then I run into the same problem - I sometimes can't answer the questions myself! This is becominig more of a problem with my 9th grade ds who doesn't see the connections, symbolism, etc that his big sis did when she read the same books. English is the one class that leaves me feeling inadequate each year, and one in which I feel offers the least satisfying options for outsourcing.

 

Advice needed and wanted!

YES!!!

 

This is me! Same type/gender of kids, same experience. I feel like such a dud sometimes. Even when I use guides to give me the answers or springboard for discussion, I don't get it or don't get what they say I should get.

 

Robin

 

I think it might help to let go of the idea that you need to "get" specific things out of a work. Don't think of trying to wring a work dry of all its symbolism, themes, metaphors,etc. "Great Books" usually hold more in those terms than you can process in one sitting. Also, maybe give up the idea that there are specific "right" answers; this isn't math. Believe it or not, this is a good thing.

 

You can develop a list of stock questions that give you a jump start in discussing the works. "What's the problem?" works as a starting point or "What type of conflict do you see?" "Man vs.Man?" "Man vs. Himself?" "How does that play out?" You may not have thoughts about the work on a recognizable literary level, but I am willing to be that you and your students have reactions like "What a moron! How could he do that?" Work with those reactions. Frame them as questions. The goal is to interact with the works and formulate your own opinions, not to regurgitate someone else's analysis. This doesn't mean that I don't look for an "expert's" point of view, but I use that viewpoint as part of the journey, not as an endpoint. More and more, my youngest and I seek out writers' essays on other writers' works. Often these writers are contemporaries and you can pick up some highly interesting ideas, and just as often you may find yourself disagreeing with Poe or Hawthorne or whoever. It makes for some lively discussions.

 

Kangato3 - a teacher's cheat sheet gives you one perspective based on one person's experiences and interpretation.

 

You both can do this.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I have been closely following this thread and the other related one. I always like the idea of just using Well-Educated Mind as a springboard for discussion, but here's my dilemma - sometimes I feel that I'm not "getting" all that I should from a piece of literature, so how do I know if my kids are on the right track. I always read the books as well, but I don't have the confidence that I can lead a good discussion. I wish there was a "teacher's cheat sheet" for every book that made it clear the important symbolism, themes, etc. For that reason, I often fall back on study guides. I do spend time searching them out on the internet for ones that ask thoughtful questions. But then I run into the same problem - I sometimes can't answer the questions myself! This is becominig more of a problem with my 9th grade ds who doesn't see the connections, symbolism, etc that his big sis did when she read the same books. English is the one class that leaves me feeling inadequate each year, and one in which I feel offers the least satisfying options for outsourcing.

 

Advice needed and wanted!

I'll be another vote in the camp that you don't have to pick out every theme, metaphor and symbol in order to get a lot out of a book. As an exaggerated example, Gulliver's Travels has all sorts of meaning about the assumptions that people of the day made about people in far away lands, the wisdom (or lack of wisdom) of science and what it means to be human. But there are also many jabs at political figures of Swift's day. I've seen glossed editions that point out each political figure that is being mocked. But I don't really need to know that the Lilliputian who is urinated on represents a certain figure in order to appreciate that he is mocking a political archtype that is still out there to be found. I also think it's worth remembering that you get different meanings out of books at different points in your life. I had to shelve the Master and Commander series a decade ago. I liked the writing, but just couldn't get into the whole story. 10-15 years later I have a much better feel for the emotions of the characters. Similarly, I'm getting something very different from The Caine Mutiny now than I did reading it as a young lieutenant. One of my goals is that my kids learn they can read and understand a book, even if there are some nuances that escape them on this first reading.

[kangato3]

Also, maybe give up the idea that there are specific "right" answers; this isn't math.

 

You're right - I am a math person. :laugh: I can see that I need to let go of the idea of there being a "right" analysis for everythiing. So if you want to have your student write about the book after discussion, how do you pick an essay topic? Does it springboard from the discussion points? It's another area where I'm always researching to find the "right" essay prompts for a book, usually before we've even read the book.

[Nscribe]

Kangato,

The Well Educated Mind has some great springboards.

 

This link has a bit to mull: http://www.thewritesource.com/books/handbooks/writers_inc/

 

Asking them to describe the writer's effective (ineffective) use of a given literary device is an approach I have used.

[Robin in DFW]

swimmermom (Lisa)~~~what translations/versions did you use? Part of our problem has been choosing the wrong version and then slogging through or abandoning it altogether.

 

 

The Epic of Gilgamesh The Iliad

The Odyssey

Theogony

Oedipus Rex

Oedipus at Colonus

Antigone

 

 

Thanks...again.

Robin

[swimmermom3]

I'll be another vote in the camp that you don't have to pick out every theme, metaphor and symbol in order to get a lot out of a book. As an exaggerated example, Gulliver's Travels has all sorts of meaning about the assumptions that people of the day made about people in far away lands, the wisdom (or lack of wisdom) of science and what it means to be human. But there are also many jabs at political figures of Swift's day. I've seen glossed editions that point out each political figure that is being mocked. But I don't really need to know that the Lilliputian who is urinated on represents a certain figure in order to appreciate that he is mocking a political archtype that is still out there to be found. I also think it's worth remembering that you get different meanings out of books at different points in your life. I had to shelve the Master and Commander series a decade ago. I liked the writing, but just couldn't get into the whole story. 10-15 years later I have a much better feel for the emotions of the characters. Similarly, I'm getting something very different from The Caine Mutiny now than I did reading it as a young lieutenant. One of my goals is that my kids learn they can read and understand a book, even if there are some nuances that escape them on this first reading.

 

 

This is exactly why I am going to try to read Ulysses again. Also, I was enamored of Ayn Rand when I was 17 - now? My outlook is "slightly" altered.

 

Elizabeth Vandiver mentions in her Iliad lectures that she expects to still be pulling new insights from the Iliad when she is 90 and has read it many, many times. It reassures me that I don't need to have all the answers since even the "experts" are still working on that. :D

 

You're right - I am a math person. :laugh: I can see that I need to let go of the idea of there being a "right" analysis for everythiing. So if you want to have your student write about the book after discussion, how do you pick an essay topic? Does it springboard from the discussion points? It's another area where I'm always researching to find the "right" essay prompts for a book, usually before we've even read the book.

 

 

I use basically two methods to come up with essay prompts. I have a folder on my laptop for the ideas that I have mined predominantly from AP and Honors English teachers' websites. This is a good example for The Epic of Gilgamesh. This set of questions was well-suited to what my son and I had discussed. The first bullet is a question I would use for history as it's focus is on Gilgamesh as a primary source.

 

The seventh bullet works well because per SWB's recommendations, reading Genesis is part of our ongoing "Bible as Literature" studies so at that point my son has read both works and will have to draw on the commentaries he read in the Mesopotamian literature book and the Bible as Literature text as well as his own opinion. If I am lucky, he'll give me a dandy comparison and contrast essay or that will be part of our writing lesson.

 

The eighth bullet is also workable because we have been reviewing that section on epics and the traits of epic heroes in Literary Lessons of Lord of the Rings.

 

Bullets nine and ten really deal with literary theory. There are many different philosophies on doing literary theory is high school. We have a four-year project utilizing Tim Gillespie's Doing Literary Criticism: Helping Students Engage with Challenging Texts. For Ancients, we have studied archetypal and psychological ( I think that's the one for doubles :tongue_smilie: ) criticism which work well with this time period. If I didn't use the Enkidu/Gilgamesh question this time, maybe I would expand on it during the Iliad and have ds compare and contrast the doubles connection between Enkidu/Gilgamesh and Patrokles and Achilles.

 

When you mine other teachers' questions, be sure you are aiming for questions that require an opinion not just regurgitation of facts.

 

I should probably put suggestions for writing your own prompts on another post.

[regentrude]

So if you want to have your student write about the book after discussion, how do you pick an essay topic? Does it springboard from the discussion points? It's another area where I'm always researching to find the "right" essay prompts for a book, usually before we've even read the book.

 

 

With DD, I always let her choose an aspect of the work she wanted to write about. Very often, the prompts in the study guides are quite "in your face", reek like "school assignment", and may not at all be what my student found interesting or intriguing. We found good thought provoking discussion questions in the course guidebooks that come with the TC lectures we have been using. But mostly, DD finds a question that she would like to explore further, and I firmly believe that students write best if they can write about a topic they are genuinely interested in.

For example, when reading the Iliad, she became interested in the use of epithets and wrote about those. She found the description of Achilles' shield fascinating and wrote an essay exploring the symbolism of this shield. A comparison of Aeneid and Odyssey almost jumped out at her as a good topic.

Whether any of these are "right" essay prompts, I do not care. I care that she found an aspect of the book that spoke to her, and that she wrote a good paper about it.

[swimmermom3]

swimmermom (Lisa)~~~what translations/versions did you use? Part of our problem has been choosing the wrong version and then slogging through or abandoning it altogether.

 

 

The Epic of Gilgamesh - Andrew George's translation is my favorite. Because of a vendor mistake I ended up with Ben Foster's translation as well. We used his introduction for some of our literary elements discussions as well as putting the two books side-by-side to compare translations. We enjoyed the Annenberg lecture for Gilgamesh. What this series does is primarily show students why Great Books are still relative to the creative artistic process today. Benjamin Foster is in the lecture as well as David Damrosh who wrote an engaging book on the discovery of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Be aware if you use Ferry's Gilgamesh that it is only a retelling, not a translation. But if you need a sort of sanitized version, it's there.

 

The Iliad - I prefer Lattimore for myself, but actually like Fagels better for reading aloud. A happy PaperbackSwap mistake landed us with pristine extra volumes of Fagels' Homer, so my son is delighted to have his own set. My son didn't have any issues reading Fagels like he did Fitzgerald for The Aeneid.

 

The Odyssey - while your son is recovering from surgery, he can listen to Ian McKellan reading the Fagels translation on

.

 

Theogony - I just received Anthanassaki's translation from PBS, but we read Lombardo's translation. Lombardo tends to use modern colloquial to make works more accessible, which isn't my favorite thing but it worked for my son for Theogony.

 

Oedipus Rex - Ds read my ancient college copy by Fitts and Fitzgerald for all three plays, but it fell apart during the process, so we now have David Grene's translations which we like just as much.

Oedipus at Colonus

Antigone

 

 

Thanks...again.

Robin

 

[swimmermom3]

With DD, I always let her choose an aspect of the work she wanted to write about. Very often, the prompts in the study guides are quite "in your face", reek like "school assignment", and may not at all be what my student found interesting or intriguing. We found good thought provoking discussion questions in the course guidebooks that come with the TC lectures we have been using. But mostly, DD finds a question that she would like to explore further, and I firmly believe that students write best if they can write about a topic they are genuinely interested in.

For example, when reading the Iliad, she became interested in the use of epithets and wrote about those. She found the description of Achilles' shield fascinating and wrote an essay exploring the symbolism of this shield. A comparison of Aeneid and Odyssey almost jumped out at her as a good topic.

Whether any of these are "right" essay prompts, I do not care. I care that she found an aspect of the book that spoke to her, and that she wrote a good paper about it.

 

 

They are the "right" essay prompts because your child is thinking critically about the work and formulating her own opinion. I think you taught me that in a similar post about a year ago when I was freaking out for the umpteenth time about coming up with essay topics. Since I have let go of the "perfect" prompt, coming up with our own essay topics is easier, but then ds brings far more sophisticated observations to the table than he did a year ago so there is more to work with. I still need help when ds deigns to have no opinion.

 

The best prompts come from listening to your student's responses and reactions to the work, probing their thoughts a little more and letting them run with it. Shakespeare always generates his own topics here because my kids tend to get "emotionally" or "intellectually" involved. My oldest and my youngest read and then watched the BBC version of The Merchant of Venice. Dd thought Shylock was inhumane and a villain. Her much younger brother thought that Antonio was the villain and that Shylock was perfectly within his rights to request a pound of flesh. To this day, Shylock is a great tragic figure to my son which probably explains why even in middle school he could defend his position with supporting points.

 

Originally my son disliked The Taming of the Shrew intensely for many of the same reasons most people do - Kate's final speech. Recently we saw a great stage adaptation set in a trailer park. Afterwards, my son decided that the play had a lot of redeeming qualities and that it was just Kate's speech he disliked especially since the actress brought so much charm and sass to the role. It made that speech even more jarring. Now he has his own theory as to why Kate's speech is there and about Shakespeare's attitude towards women in general as reflected in his plays. There is lots to write about there.

[regentrude]

Originally my son disliked The Taming of the Shrew intensely for many of the same reasons most people do - Kate's final speech. Recently we saw a great stage adaptation set in a trailer park. Afterwards, my son decided that the play had a lot of redeeming qualities and that it was just Kate's speech he disliked especially since the actress brought so much charm and sass to the role. It made that speech even more jarring. Now he has his own theory as to why Kate's speech is there and about Shakespeare's attitude towards women in general as reflected in his plays. There is lots to write about there.

 

 

way off topic, but that's the way conversations go:

What is your son's theory? I am very curious, since DD strongly dislikes the play for the reasons you mentioned, and she has very strong feelings about the scene where Kate is punished by means of withholding food.

[Robin in DFW]

Thanks Lisa. These are not the ones I have, OF COURSE! I will have to check out these versions at the bookstore this weekend.

 

FYI...I sent you a couple of pm's.

 

Have a wonderful weekend.

 

Robin

[lewelma]

Is it really pretty much read 7 or so great works of literature and write about them?

 

That is not all in NZ. The curriculum at each high school year requires more advanced levels of each of the following:

 

Literary analysis

Persuasive essay (not on literature)

Creative Writing

Oral Presentation

Analysis of visual work (movie, commercial, advertisement, etc)

Production of visual work (movie, commercial, advertisement, etc)

 

Ruth in NZ

[bookfiend]

That is not all in NZ. The curriculum at each high school year requires more advanced levels of each of the following:

 

Literary analysis

Persuasive essay (not on literature)

Creative Writing

Oral Presentation

Analysis of visual work (movie, commercial, advertisement, etc)

Production of visual work (movie, commercial, advertisement, etc)

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Very interesting! I wouldn't have thought about the visual media. Making a note to include it when we cycle back to Year 4, Modernity. Could be a very fun senior English class.

[Robin in DFW]

 

Very interesting! I wouldn't have thought about the visual media. Making a note to include it when we cycle back to Year 4, Modernity. Could be a very fun senior English class.

 

Yes...I will be having ds do a powerpoint presentation for something...not sure what, though. Microsoft has a free tutorial on their website that we are going to work through while we do this little project.

 

Robin

[Robin in DFW]

I just wanted to move this thread up since there seems to be lots of Literature questions recently and I thought this might be a helpful read for someone.

 

This was a most helpful thread for me, not only for the encouragement, but also for the resources so many of you shared.

 

I am taking my own advice and re-reading this one.

 

Thanks, lovely ladies, for always taking the time to help.

 

 

[bookfiend]

Ok, I was absolutely flattened by the first year of high school.  I enrolled/assigned too many classes and underestimated the amount of work involved.

 

Honestly, I'm depressed when I look back and read my goals for the past year.  They were so lofty; in reality, little time remained every week for discussion and writing at home.

 

For English DS completed Windows to the World in a local class setting with an outside instructor.  The main program was supplemented with some additional reading and analysis.  It was a solid class, and I'm happy with his understanding of literary analysis, but the composition side seemed thin.

From TOG, He read, and we discussed; the Iliad, the Odyssey, Plato's Republic, and some minor works - no writing.

 

Moving into the Sophomore year, I need a solid composition resource that will teach the various types of essays and research writing.  I'm open to an on-line class or home curriculum.  

 

Any thoughts?

 

[elegantlion]

This was a fun thread, applied some of this information. We spend several week on Moby Dick, I thought we would never finish, we did and I'm glad we did. 

 

For composition next year I'm using Essentials in Writing. It starts with a brief coverage of sentences, then paragraphs, then moves onto essays and research paper. In our case, I need something where I'm not the teacher, ds has predefined work, and covers the writing basics. I have no idea how it will work with ds, but it was affordable (found it used - even new, it's not overpriced), has rubrics for the teacher, and covers the essay and research paper. 

 

Last year *I* had to write a ten page research paper for my freshman history class. It's been a long time since I've written one that long and it was tough. For that reason, I wanted something that had research writing integrated, not an extra book, which we seem to lose time to get through. 

 

As for the overwhelmed, yup, btdt. I've been working on issue too. 

[g1234]

Thank you, thank you, bookfiend, for bringing this thread back.  I remember reading it last year, but my kids were so, so much younger last year!  Somehow 8th grade was a year of huge growth, and things look very different now than they did last summer. 

 

There is some incredible discussion here.  I just reread the whole thread and it has been a tremendous help in affirming the good plans I am making for next year, helping me see the folly in the bad directions I was considering, and refining the rest of my ideas.  Plus it has helped me clarify my values about how to approach literature and writing.  Heartfelt thanks to everyone who contributed so thoughtfully to this thread last year!

 

ETA: Hm.  I just reread your post #70 more closely, and maybe the tone of this post isn't quite right.  Even your comments about how it wasn't a great year are going to be helpful to me, knowing that even starting with such wonderful ideas things can go not-great.  I'm sorry it was a tough year.  I can totally relate, because I also do not feel good about last year...lofty goals, lots of great plans, and not a great feeling of accomplishment.  I am hoping for a better year next year.  I wish you one, too.