Math Procedures - and Kumon?

[zenjenn]

I have a 4th grader student - just received her SAT 10 scores back and has excellent scores in everything except math, which is the 23rd percentile in math procedures - while math problem-solving remains OK in the 60th percentile. Every other subject is 70th percentile or higher. Oh and the one area most 4th graders struggle with the most - fractions - she got 100% right.

 

Her problem solving has been a head-banging nightmare. We have done rote repetition, tricks, mnemonics etc, to get the math facts down. She will remember for a while - and then forget. There has been some progress, but obviously not the progress you'd expect to go along with time, We've done Xtramath, Math Rider, Khan Academy, worksheets, timed tests, Times Tales, all sorts of games, mental math, etc. She's slow with all four operations still. Meanwhile, 2nd grade sister has 95th percentile in overall math and knows all the facts forwards and backwards, so trust me, it's not because of lack of math in the house!

 

I need some recommendations. I'm considering doing Kumon. I know it's just worksheets but supposedly there is a method there and my random distribution of math problems to her obviously isn't cutting it.

[PachiSusan]

I'm all ears. You just described my daughter!

[NASDAQ]

Kumon is expensive and a bit grim, but in your situation, I'd absolutely give it at least six months' try. It is mastery-based and she will be placed at a level that will be quite simple for her. She can only progress when she does it accurately _and_ quickly, so she'll be back to single digit addition if that's the last place she was going quickly and accurately.

[fourisenough]

She'll absolutely HATE Kumon, if she is anything like my oldest. We had a similar situation and, in desperation, we did Kumon for a few months. There is nothing magical about it and it is not AT ALL worth the money or the strain it will cause. I wouldn't worry about her computational speed; sounds like you've given it the old college try. I'd encourage her to keep working on it (I prefer XtraMath), but not at the expense of your wallet, her self-esteem, or both of your sanity. Teach problem solving skills and move forward conceptually, but don't beat her up because she can't develop computational fluency right now. I'd allow her to use a multiplication chart to help speed her along while doing long-division, otherwise, just let her be. She may mature into fluency or maybe she'll need a calculator when she gets to higher level math (like most of the rest of the world). Please don't misunderstand me to say that no child needs to master arithmetic facts; I just don't think a child that has given it a full effort should be made to continue the quest when nothing seems to be working. My oldest daughter (who had so much difficulty from 3rd-6th grade with math facts) sailed through Algebra 1 as an 8th grader at home and is now doing very, very well in Geometry as a 9th grader in school. Her difficulty hasn't held her back at all. YMMV. This is just my $.02.

[stripe]

I need some recommendations. I'm considering doing Kumon. I know it's just worksheets but supposedly there is a method there and my random distribution of math problems to her obviously isn't cutting it.

I would try NOT doing a random distribution of problems. Be systematic. And you could buy the Kumon workbooks pretty inexpensively and do it at home, couldn't you?

[zenjenn]

She'll absolutely HATE Kumon, if she is anything like my oldest. We had a similar situation and, in desperation, we did Kumon for a few months. There is nothing magical about it and it is not AT ALL worth the money or the strain it will cause. I wouldn't worry about her computational speed; sounds like you've given it the old college try. I'd encourage her to keep working on it (I prefer XtraMath), but not at the expense of your wallet, her self-esteem, or both of your sanity. Teach problem solving skills and move forward conceptually, but don't beat her up because she can't develop computational fluency right now. I'd allow her to use a multiplication chart to help speed her along while doing long-division, otherwise, just let her be. She may mature into fluency or maybe she'll need a calculator when she gets to higher level math (like most of the rest of the world). Please don't misunderstand me to say that no child needs to master arithmetic facts; I just don't think a child that has given it a full effort should be made to continue the quest when nothing seems to be working. My oldest daughter (who had so much difficulty from 3rd-6th grade with math facts) sailed through Algebra 1 as an 8th grader at home and is now doing very, very well in Geometry as a 9th grader in school. Her difficulty hasn't held her back at all. YMMV. This is just my $.02.

 

 

This is exactly my husband's thought - he had similar issues with math in elementary school, and he ended up getting graduating cum laude in physics and getting a master's degree in electrical engineering. Both she and he are dyslexic. But he also shares my concern about how slow her computation is. He doesn't remember how/when he resolved his computation speed. (He's still not always the best - for example, I can usually calculate a tip faster than he can.)

[Coco_Clark]

She'll absolutely HATE Kumon, if she is anything like my oldest. We had a similar situation and, in desperation, we did Kumon for a few months. There is nothing magical about it and it is not AT ALL worth the money or the strain it will cause. I wouldn't worry about her computational speed; sounds like you've given it the old college try. I'd encourage her to keep working on it (I prefer XtraMath), but not at the expense of your wallet, her self-esteem, or both of your sanity. Teach problem solving skills and move forward conceptually, but don't beat her up because she can't develop computational fluency right now. I'd allow her to use a multiplication chart to help speed her along while doing long-division, otherwise, just let her be. She may mature into fluency or maybe she'll need a calculator when she gets to higher level math (like most of the rest of the world). Please don't misunderstand me to say that no child needs to master arithmetic facts; I just don't think a child that has given it a full effort should be made to continue the quest when nothing seems to be working. My oldest daughter (who had so much difficulty from 3rd-6th grade with math facts) sailed through Algebra 1 as an 8th grader at home and is now doing very, very well in Geometry as a 9th grader in school. Her difficulty hasn't held her back at all. YMMV. This is just my $.02.

 

I'm seconding (thirding?) this. I never mastered my arithmetic facts, despite every program, years of tutors, desperate efforts, summer school, ect. Just couldn't get it to be immediate, no matter what I tried. The result? Tears. I decided I was "bad" at math, and generally "stupid". I stopped trying by 6th grade and sailed thru the least required math courses from then on without trying, because why bother? I can honestly say it set the course for my entire educational experience.

 

Later in college, when calculators were not only allowed but required, I was blessed enough to have a professor that realized I was actually really really good at math. I ended up minoring in Math. To this day I don't have my multi tables memorized.

 

Which is all to day that memorizing math facts is very very worthwhile. It makes life easier. But it's not necessary, nor is it worth your daughters self esteem or love of learning (if it comes to that). It's not much longer before she'll always be expected to have a calculator by her side anyways.

 

Just my over emotional 2 cents ;)