Need Advice re: High School Science sequence

[74Heaven]

I have graduated two students following the traditional math & science sequences (Using Apologia). Both did very well except we stumbled and struggled with a year of BJU Chem via DVDs in the mix. Chem was very difficult for us. Spent 6+ weeks extra going over chapters where we scored less than 70% on tests.

 

Now, I have 2 more students ready for high school science, with the same aptitudes: gr9dd NONMathy; ds gr 7ds "Mathy". I prefer to outsource their science at our current co op. The co op sequence offered is not the standard sequence (that I am used to and that I prefer due to our success), but rather physics first, before biology and chemistry. They both are finishing Apologia physical science with grades in the 85-95% range.

 

My gut tells me that neither child is ready for physics; and we'd be better to either skip science next year. I base this primarily on my older daughter. She took physics her senior year at a local Christian school. She struggled mightily and barely scraped together a mid-B grade. It was a daunting task.

 

However, the other moms in co op are comfortable with the General/Physical/Physics/Bio/Chem rotation. (There is a good reason for this sequence as we are a small co op and have BIG class-space problems, teacher needs and older students who "need" physics this year before they graduate.)

 

I have scanned the internet for info on this as well. It seems most 9th grade physics classes done in private or public schools tend to do a simpler physics because of the higher math that is missing for most 9th graders. Most of the online articles I read seem to indicate most 9th gr physics students tend to take an advanced or more rigorous physics as 12th graders?

 

I am wondering if I am needlessly fearful or right to be concerned? What say the experienced science moms? What do I need to know to make this decision?

 

Thanks for any thoughts. I've been wrestling with this decision for a few months.

 

Lisa J, mom to 2 grads/3 to go...

[swimmermom3]

My oldest followed the traditional sequence and my youngest is following the newer sequence with Conceptual Physcis (school calls it STEM Physics) for freshman year. The rationale for the new sequence is that physics is the foundational science from which chemistry and then biology flow. Also, if I remember correctly, with the change in emphasis to microbiology, it makes sense to now have chemistry before biology.

 

If your children will indeed be studying the simpler physics next year and they haven't had any problems with Apologia's Physical Science course, then they should do fine. Some of the work in the physics course will be redundant, I believe, although it has been about four years since I have used the Apologia course.

 

My youngest's plan is to take whichever AP science course appeals the most to him based on his experience in earlier classes.

 

Hopefully our resident science experts will weigh in soon for you.

[snowbeltmom]

The private high school my next door neighbor's kids attend follows the physics, chemistry, biology sequence. The topics covered in biology today are very different than the topics I studied in high school. In order to understand the biology, it helps to have the background in chemistry.

 

I am also following the physics, chemistry, biology sequence with my kids.

 

ETA: It would be a good idea to investigate the level of math that the course requires. Some physics courses for 9th graders are conceptual and don't require higher level math, while other physics courses for 9th grade would assume that the student has had Alg. I and is familiar with basic trig concepts.

[74Heaven]

Thanks, Lisa & snowbeltmom. My fear is lessening. I don't have any idea how approachable the Apologia Physics is. I guess I'll need to find a book to look at.

 

I am not worried about the math as gr9 dd is done with Alg. 2 and gr. 7 ds (mathy) will be halfway through Alg. 1 next fall.

 

We do have a geology/lego contraptions course that we could do at co op IF we opted out of physics next year. We can also do physics at tthe end of the sequence, assuming we are still co oping at the same place. My 7th grader will be in 11th that year (when physics is planned again) and my 9th grader would miss out which I would be okay with, given her lack of science aptitude/interest.

 

Hoping to hear from more science-oriented parents/teachers!

 

Lisa j, 2 graduated, 3 to go

[regentrude]

I am very much in favor of a physics first sequence because it is more logical. My kids both take algebra/trig based physics in 9th grade.

 

It seems most 9th grade physics classes done in private or public schools tend to do a simpler physics because of the higher math that is missing for most 9th graders. Most of the online articles I read seem to indicate most 9th gr physics students tend to take an advanced or more rigorous physics as 12th graders?

 

I am wondering if I am needlessly fearful or right to be concerned? What say the experienced science moms? What do I need to know to make this decision?

 

One can do a conceptual or an algebra based course.

Conceptual physics has very little math and is sufficient for a student who will not enter a STEM field. A student interested in STEM would benefit from a more math based course, but it is not absolutely necessary (I teach physics to science majors, and about a fourth of my class never had any high school physics at all.)

Algebra based physics can be a very solid course as sole physics exposure, or an excellent preparation for calculus based physics for STEM majors at university. It is possible to do a lot of physics with just algebra and a tiny bit of trigonometry.

[SailorMom]

We chose a conceptual physics course for 9th grade, and my ps ds is taking physics using the same text in 10th (geometry was the prerequisite math for that). It certainly is not the physics my DH tok his senior year of hs - the math is much easier. I think it has been great for my DS who may not even choose to take a higher level of physics until college. We did a HS bio class in 8th, and will be doing Chem next year. I figure that gives him 2 years to take either AP or advanced chem, bio, or physics, or chose a different science altogether.

[Musicmom]

Thanks, Lisa & snowbeltmom. My fear is lessening. I don't have any idea how approachable the Apologia Physics is. I guess I'll need to find a book to look at.

 

I am not worried about the math as gr9 dd is done with Alg. 2 and gr. 7 ds (mathy) will be halfway through Alg. 1 next fall.

 

We do have a geology/lego contraptions course that we could do at co op IF we opted out of physics next year. We can also do physics at tthe end of the sequence, assuming we are still co oping at the same place. My 7th grader will be in 11th that year (when physics is planned again) and my 9th grader would miss out which I would be okay with, given her lack of science aptitude/interest.

 

Hoping to hear from more science-oriented parents/teachers!

 

Lisa j, 2 graduated, 3 to go

Apologia Physics is definitely algebra-based (not just conceptual) and it requires some basic trig. If your dd has had Algebra 2 though, she should be fine as far as the math goes. That's the level of math the Apologia folks expect students to have had when they begin physics. The trigonometry necessary is very basic and easy to learn/look up on the side (that's what my dc did.) Hopefully the co-op teacher will cover it also--you might ask to be sure. (ETA--also ask if the teacher will cover significant figures. This is another concept that will be needed. Apologia teaches it at the beginning of Chem; I don't remember offhand if they cover it again in the physics book.)

 

Also, since it sounds like your dd has done well with Physical Science, she will likely do fine with the concepts as well.

 

Really, the traditional sequence is just math driven, so since your dd has the math, I don't see any reason not to go ahead with the physics next year. Physics is good to have had in high school, and taking it now would keep her options more open later.

[swimmermom3]

I have graduated two students following the traditional math & science sequences (Using Apologia). Both did very well except we stumbled and struggled with a year of BJU Chem via DVDs in the mix. Chem was very difficult for us. Spent 6+ weeks extra going over chapters where we scored less than 70% on tests.

 

Now, I have 2 more students ready for high school science, with the same aptitudes: gr9dd NONMathy; ds gr 7ds "Mathy". I prefer to outsource their science at our current co op. The co op sequence offered is not the standard sequence (that I am used to and that I prefer due to our success), but rather physics first, before biology and chemistry. They both are finishing Apologia physical science with grades in the 85-95% range.

 

My gut tells me that neither child is ready for physics; and we'd be better to either skip science next year. I base this primarily on my older daughter. She took physics her senior year at a local Christian school. She struggled mightily and barely scraped together a mid-B grade. It was a daunting task.

 

However, the other moms in co op are comfortable with the General/Physical/Physics/Bio/Chem rotation. (There is a good reason for this sequence as we are a small co op and have BIG class-space problems, teacher needs and older students who "need" physics this year before they graduate.)

 

I have scanned the internet for info on this as well. It seems most 9th grade physics classes done in private or public schools tend to do a simpler physics because of the higher math that is missing for most 9th graders. Most of the online articles I read seem to indicate most 9th gr physics students tend to take an advanced or more rigorous physics as 12th graders?

 

I am wondering if I am needlessly fearful or right to be concerned? What say the experienced science moms? What do I need to know to make this decision?

 

Thanks for any thoughts. I've been wrestling with this decision for a few months.

 

Lisa J, mom to 2 grads/3 to go...

 

 

Lisa, I looked at your post a little more carefully and have some additional thoughts. If I understand things correctly, your co-op is going with the Physics/Biology/Chemistry plan because it meets the needs of some students that have not had Physics yet, probably older students. This is really not good from your perspective. I looked at Apologia's sequencing and the physics course is recommended for eleventh grade and requires some trigonometry. This tells me it is not going to be the easier conceptual physics that many schools use for foundational science work for ninth grade. The co-op's sequencing is designed for convenience, not for what is right for individual students and not even what is "correct" from a science standpoint. So if the co-op is on chemistry for the rotation, then this is what my freshman would have to take? Is that correct? Hmmm. I would have misgivings about this arrangement. The danger here would be permanently turning your non-mathy 9th grader off of science for good.

 

Would you consider teaching a conceptual physics course yourself?

[swimmermom3]

Is the science sequence really only math driven?

 

Asking because I thought otherwise, but then I have not had enough coffee today. :tongue_smilie:

[irizarry4]

My son is going into 9th grade. He is finishing Apologia Biology this yr. because there weren't enough students to take Phys.Sci. So I am considering using DIVE Integrated Physics and Chemistry for 9th grade. I am assuming this is one of those conceptual physics and chemistry courses. In Texas it is recommended as one of the high school sciences for graduation.

 

Then in 10th we would do either Chem. or Advance Bio. so we can CLEP. Anyone used DIVE IPC before?

[regentrude]

Is the science sequence really only math driven?

 

There is no logical reason to begin with biology, other than the fact that most schools are teaching math at such a pace that the students are not prepared for anything else in 9th grade.

From a logical point of view, physics is first. It is the fundamental science. Chemistry is really just an application of physics principles. Biology uses biochemistry, and every biological system has to obey the laws of physics.

 

So yes, the high school science sequence in the US is the way it is because of the way math is taught.

(Btw, in many other countries, all three sciences are taught concurrently.)

[kiana]

Another option could be to do a non-lab conceptual physics course yourself, and have them rejoin the co-op after that. They will have been exposed to the same concepts as the other students who are in the co-op with them.

[swimmermom3]

There is no logical reason to begin with biology, other than the fact that most schools are teaching math at such a pace that the students are not prepared for anything else in 9th grade.

From a logical point of view, physics is first. It is the fundamental science. Chemistry is really just an application of physics principles. Biology uses biochemistry, and every biological system has to obey the laws of physics.

 

So yes, the high school science sequence in the US is the way it is because of the way math is taught.

(Btw, in many other countries, all three sciences are taught concurrently.)

 

 

Ahh. It was that way here until recently. Both of my older kids scored high marks on the 8th grade science test and made "A's" in Biology their 9th grade year and then bombed Chemistry. In hindsight, I wondered if the fact that they took Geometry the same year as Chemistry played into the problem. They were removed from algebra and at that time, the geometry classes did not include algebra review. Now they do. The youngest will be doing Algebra II along with Chemistry, so I will have a chance to see if math is the determining factor with regards to chemistry success.

[74Heaven]

Swimmermom - thanks for your recent post after you re-read my OP & follow up post. I think you hit it on the head, exactly. Apologia isn't the "lower math" physics level that is maybe used in 9th now for the new "physics" first science sequences.

 

As for your question about the co op's "rotation". We are offering Apologia general/physical on a 2-year rotation. On those same years, we are offering the 3-year rotation of physics/bio/chem. So in theory, a entering freshman will have to choose between the two different rotations. General OR Physical will always be offered & one of the upper 3 will always be offered. At least that's the rough plan.

 

Lisa J - I don't think I'll be teaching any kind of physics. I am teaching 2 Latin classes and am considering teaching a class for my 4th grader too?