NY Times Article: It Takes a BA to find a job as a file clerk

[creekland]

 

3- There is no shortage of jobs that don't pay very well.

Re geographic distribution

From http://en.wikipedia....income_2009.png

 

That is an interesting graphic. Thanks for sharing it!

[Jenny in Florida]

There are a few people I know who I've really wanted to help get on with this company, but every time, even though one had SEVEN YEARS' worth of directly related experience, my manager said no degree, no go.

 

 

 

My husband didn't go to college. (Well, okay, he hung out on campus for a couple of semesters, but they didn't offer a degree in role playing games, meaning he didn't actually end up with any credits.) He's done quite well for himself and for us, but the no-degree thing still rears its head periodically.

 

A couple of years ago, his current employee essentially created a job just for him. My husband literally wrote the job description to be used in the hiring process, with input from his boss. Everything was going swimmingly, until the hiring manager noticed my husband didn't have a degree. And for a couple of days, it looked like they were going to go ahead and create the position -- the one tailor made for my husband -- and hire someone else to fill it, because the company's rules said that kind of job required a degree. The fact that my husband was basically already doing that job, which is why they wanted to create a position to formalize his responsibilities, and that they wrote a description that perfectly matched his actual skills and qualifications, wasn't going to matter.

 

Eventually, they worked out a compromise, re-writing the description slightly to make the degree optional. Unfortunately, the only way to do that was to put him in a lower pay scale. In order to keep doing the job he was already doing, we ended up taking a 20% cut in salary.

 

Prior to that, there was the whole outsourcing episode, in which the entire department where he worked was "outsourced." As of one Friday afternoon, every single person was let go from the company, only to start "new" jobs doing exactly the same thing at the same desks in the same building at pretty much the same salary on Monday morning. Within a few months, my husband was promoted to a managerial position with the consulting company. However, when the primary company brought everyone back into the fold a few years later, they decided he couldn't be a manager anymore, because their rules require managers to have degrees. So, they gave him a different title and had him continue doing pretty much the same job he was doing for the consulting firm, only now he was no longer management . . . and found himself in a category in which he had almost no hope of growing his salary.

 

Please understand: I'm in no way making excuses for him. I do think he should have gone to college, and finished a degree. If he couldn't manage it straight out of high school, because he just wasn't mature enough or didn't get enough support from his family (both true), then he should have taken me up on my many offers over the years to help him apply and go after we were married. He never thought is was important, because he was doing fine, career-wise, for many years. And he was a big reader and autodidact and didn't feel the lack of formal education. Only in the last few years, as educational inflation has hit in a big way, has this become a serious problem. And now that we're already paying off the college loans for one kid and trying to figure out how we're going to pay for the next one to go to school, it's not likely we could send him, even if he did want to go.

 

But, with the lessons we've learned from my husband's experiences, you can bet we're making sure to do everything in our power to see our kids through some kind of appropriate post-secondary education before we let them out of our parental clutches!

[Dana]

Only in the last few years, as educational inflation has hit in a big way, has this become a serious problem. And now that we're already paying off the college loans for one kid and trying to figure out how we're going to pay for the next one to go to school, it's not likely we could send him, even if he did want to go.

 

 

That sounds like where you just need the paper and a diploma mill degree (U of Phoenix? other for-profit schools... online only?) might do enough?

[creekland]

 

Please understand: I'm in no way making excuses for him. I do think he should have gone to college, and finished a degree. If he couldn't manage it straight out of high school, because he just wasn't mature enough or didn't get enough support from his family (both true), then he should have taken me up on my many offers over the years to help him apply and go after we were married. He never thought is was important, because he was doing fine, career-wise, for many years. And he was a big reader and autodidact and didn't feel the lack of formal education. Only in the last few years, as educational inflation has hit in a big way, has this become a serious problem. And now that we're already paying off the college loans for one kid and trying to figure out how we're going to pay for the next one to go to school, it's not likely we could send him, even if he did want to go.

 

But, with the lessons we've learned from my husband's experiences, you can bet we're making sure to do everything in our power to see our kids through some kind of appropriate post-secondary education before we let them out of our parental clutches!

 

 

This is what I'm seeing IRL with several in our circle. Just 10 - 20 years ago these folks were fine knowing the material and just plain doing the job, but as time marches on, degrees are becoming more and more necessary and they are finding themselves caught or unable to move on without one. Many are working through our local community college or online degrees either of which is perfect for their situation. However, both do cost money and take up time. They are all doing what they can to get their kids degrees right out of high school even if they think junior won't actually use the content of their degree (just need to check the box that they have one).

 

Many of us grew up in a different generation when life worked differently. Sometimes it can be difficult to see that the country has changed... One doesn't have to agree with the changes, but should note that actually swimming against the stream might not aid in a future job search when there are literally millions of fish who can check the box and very few actual jobs. Unless you have the connections or finances to make the rules for a company, not having a degree (or certification or whatever is needed for the desired job) is seldom a good idea.

[mamajag]

 

 

Every story I've heard and read about this says quite the opposite--there are plenty of jobs there. The housing just has not caught up. The people living in tents are working and making plenty of money; there's just nowhere else to live.

 

Terri

 

 

DH used to work in North Dakota. Hotels that are being built are contracted full before they are finished by companies trying to house workers. It's insane up there. They had to put a limit one the number of RVs per property because farmers were setting up and renting parking spaces for them at $800 a month and up instead of planting crops.

[justamouse]

This is true, BUT states use unemployment figures, though, and then not everyone who's unemployed collects ûnemployment insurance.

 

I think most people agree that the economy is in worse condition than an unemployment number ALONE indicates.

 

I honestly am shocked at the number of establishments that believe one should be delighted with a $9/hr a job by an experienced professional, but maybe this is a regional thing. Apparently in the south, people get even less.

 

 

Yeah, that's the sick part, they don't count the underemployed, either. Just as long as you're getting a check...

 

I've always tacked on another 2% to the adjusted numbers (because you can't pay attention to them until they're about 3 months old, either, after they're quietly adjusted).

[Aelwydd]

 

 

 

 

Please understand: I'm in no way making excuses for him. I do think he should have gone to college, and finished a degree. If he couldn't manage it straight out of high school, because he just wasn't mature enough or didn't get enough support from his family (both true), then he should have taken me up on my many offers over the years to help him apply and go after we were married. He never thought is was important, because he was doing fine, career-wise, for many years. And he was a big reader and autodidact and didn't feel the lack of formal education.

 

 

You don't need to make an excuse for your dh. I think it's patently stupid to make someone earn a degree to qualify for a job he's already been doing, and doing well. I'm a big proponent of university study, for the sake of learning and education, itself. I'm a proponent of university education for such fields as science, medicine, education, law, and accounting.

 

I am NOT a proponent of university study for trades, general business, computer programming, service industry such as hospitality, or whatever. I believe apprenticeship and trade specific schools are a much more appropriate fit and much less expensive, not just for those studying, but for society as a whole.

 

The way the system is now, trades-based learning and business education have been combined with classical university study to form some bloated hybrid of the two, that serves neither population very well. It has served to "water down" the academics of university education, and create a financial burden and frustration for those who are seeking become, for example, a hotel front office manager. Having worked in various hotels from 2 star to 4 1/2 star properties for years before my current field, I can tell you it doesn't take a university education to be a manager. In terms of knowledge involved, it's covered by about 2 years of business principles, and on-the-job experience, and some cross-training. Yet, more and more hotel chains are requiring a four year university degree for such.

 

It makes no sense, except that it helps university systems and for-profit private colleges to rake in billions more, off the millions of people being compelled to go for more years of education, and for higher degrees. Before anyone points out that public (post-secondary) school budgets are being cut--yes, they are, but the cuts are compensated for by decreased salaries for faculty and staff salaries, decreased numbers of full-time faculty, increased health insurance premiums, and out of increased tuition for students. It's done little to stop the massive growth in campuses in terms of brand new science buildings, administration buildings, and even athletic stadiums and student gyms. The funds for these expansion projects are coming from the heretofore unparalleled surge in numbers of students attending college. Those funds are also going towards the often outrageous salaries of university board members and presidents.

 

In short, what's been done to the health system--"corporatizing" as I call it--has been done to the education system. Namely, capitalize on an unwilling buyer who is compelled to nevertheless enter the market, multiply that by millions and millions, while simultaneously cutting salaries of professionals doing the actual work, and raising the prices on services rendered through a confusing and complex pricing scheme. Next, bring in federal dollars, and add those to private funds, and also start marketing one's brand through things like sports or other community events. Combine all that with the generous donations of people who are wealthy or who die, and now, if it's a non-profit organization, start planning the next big dorm or next big building. Raise bonuses for executives--I mean, board members, and the CEO--I mean, university President. If it's a for-profit, well. Expand marketing, and dole out the booty.

 

Rinse, repeat.

 

 

So, I'm saying as someone who loves learning and has an immense respect for the classic university model of education, your dh has nothing to apologize for for not participating. The whole system is gamed, whether it's education, health, politics, whatever. That's the point. It's like gambling. If you don't know the right time to get into the, AND the right time to get out and are knowledgeable about how to make it work for you, you get screwed. It turns into a choice of 50K worth of debt and maybe a 60K a year job (if you play your cards right and get one of the "good" jobs), or no college and maybe 22K a year, topping out at around 33k in several once you hit that "no degree" glass ceiling. If you don't get laid off first, or have your job outsourced.

 

 

To me, our society is becoming less the land of opportunity, and more the land of the opportunistic--the ones with wealth and power that prey off the rest of us.

[DyslexicParent]

Is Ms. Parker wearing pants with that "shirt?" :ohmy:

The law partners hired her because she was wearing a "shirt" like that during the interview! :laugh:

 

On a more depressing note, what is to happen to all our children with learning differences? Completing all the requirements for a high school diploma is hard enough, but paying for and completing a college degree is unlikely for children like mine. I had stopped contributing to my kid's registered education savings plan many years ago when I realized there is a high probability it won't be utilized for college (resulting in financial penalty).

[Rose in BC]

The law partners hired her because she was wearing a "shirt" like that during the interview! :laugh:

 

On a more depressing note, what is to happen to all our children with learning differences? Completing all the requirements for a high school diploma is hard enough, but paying for and completing a college degree is unlikely for children like mine. I had stopped contributing to my kid's registered education savings plan many years ago when I realized there is a high probability it won't be utilized for college (resulting in financial penalty).

 

This is us too. Two of our kids have special needs. It will be a miracle to get a regular grade twelve certificate. ..maybe when they're older. It is depressing.