My 5th grader wants to move up a level in Saxon Math (M)

[KellyMama]

She's currently flying through 6/5 and missing maybe 1 or 2 on all the mixed practice sheets. She is scoring 95% -100% consistently on all the tests. It really seems to be repetition to the point of boredom for her.

 

I've been cautioned against skipping levels in Saxon because the lessons are so incremental/spiral. I do have the 7/6 book and CD on hand. Does anyone know with the amount of repetition in the books how big of a deal it would be to move her to the next level?

 

I've also considered going through the lesson TOC verbally with her (through the end of 6/5) and having her point out the ones that are new concepts and just doing those? She did Abeka before this, so this is her first year on Saxon. At first I just thought she was commenting on the reptition because it is a different type of curriculum. But now she is seriously asking to be challenged. She isn't complaining and does her math happily each day. I can tell she is growing in confidence with the problem solving and drills, so I don't feel it's a complete waste of time. I just don't want to hold her back if she's ready for more of a challenge.

 

Thoughts?

[Melissa B]

I would just give her a test a day from 6/5 until she scores below your pass/skip level (for me that would be 90%) and start her there.

[Hunter]

I personally don't like to place students where they appear challenged in Saxon. If Saxon isn't easy, then the volume of work is intolerable. Saxon is easy because it works, if you know what I mean.

 

I expect the student to have near perfect scores in Saxon or I move them down.

[KellyMama]

I personally don't like to place students where they appear challenged in Saxon. If Saxon isn't easy, then the volume of work is intolerable. Saxon is easy because it works, if you know what I mean.

 

I expect the student to have near perfect scores in Saxon or I move them down.

 

Interesting perspective. This is our second year with Saxon for my 7th grader. She was certainly challenged towards the end of 7/6 but now she's doing 8/7 and back to scoring near perfect scores. She has worked enough of the same types of problems over and over that she has learned/improved the things that didn't come naturally to her at first. I think because I've always had to work hard in math to do well, it never occured to me that they should be making perfect scores (I certainly seldom did!).

 

My 5th grader did say she's learning some new ways to look at problems, so maybe that's enough and she really is right where she should be?

[...................]

Well where is she in the book? My ds always complains of boredom until lesson 85.

[Hunter]

The books do get harder as the lessons progress, and then slack off again when starting a new book. Some students can complete 2 lessons a day and really focus on speed and accuracy during the early lessons. Instead of pushing for comprehension of a topic, they should be focusing on speed and accuracy.

 

Kellymama, I do think near perfect scores are what we should be aiming for. What good is "almost correct" when using math in real life? And when adding new math concepts on top of old ones, it's so disappointing and inefficient to get a wrong answer because of a simple mistake in something expected to have been mastered years ago.

 

Saxon is not for every teacher and every student, but when I use it, I like to place students low and set the bar high for accuracy and speed. It's actually less time consuming NOT to skip lessons in the long run.

[RootAnn]

Did you give her the placement test? (If she finished Abeka 4, she might have been close to testing into 7/6. I know my oldest tested into 6/5 after Abeka 3, but I didn't have her take the 7/6 test to see how she'd do on that one.)

 

I would just give her a test a day from 6/5 until she scores below your pass/skip level (for me that would be 90%) and start her there.

 

 

:iagree: I would add that if she asks about a particular kind of problem while doing the test or bombs a certain type, back up & teach that section & let her practice awhile.

[KellyMama]

Well where is she in the book? My ds always complains of boredom until lesson 85.

 

 

Lesson 69 - maybe that's the key. ;)

[KellyMama]

Did you give her the placement test? (If she finished Abeka 4, she might have been close to testing into 7/6. I know my oldest tested into 6/5 after Abeka 3, but I didn't have her take the 7/6 test to see how she'd do on that one.)

 

 

 

:iagree: I would add that if she asks about a particular kind of problem while doing the test or bombs a certain type, back up & teach that section & let her practice awhile.

 

You know, I totally didn't test her!! It never occurred to me - I know, that's crazy? I just assumed she would be 6/5 because she was 5th grade and when we tested my older child, she was coming from the same curriculum and tested on grade level. :leaving: Excellent mommy moment!!

[RootAnn]

Abeka "slows down" after 3, so the farther away you are from 3, the less of a jump you'll see to Saxon. (I would guess that my just-finishing Abeka 6 oldest would test right into 8/7 or Algebra 1/2. She probably wouldn't test into Algebra 1. I'll have to remember to test her so I'll have that information for later posts. :coolgleamA: )

[Professormom]

The books do get harder as the lessons progress, and then slack off again when starting a new book. Some students can complete 2 lessons a day and really focus on speed and accuracy during the early lessons. Instead of pushing for comprehension of a topic, they should be focusing on speed and accuracy.

 

Kellymama, I do think near perfect scores are what we should be aiming for. What good is "almost correct" when using math in real life? And when adding new math concepts on top of old ones, it's so disappointing and inefficient to get a wrong answer because of a simple mistake in something expected to have been mastered years ago.

 

Saxon is not for every teacher and every student, but when I use it, I like to place students low and set the bar high for accuracy and speed. It's actually less time consuming NOT to skip lessons in the long run.

 

 

:iagree yes! This reminds me of the way Leigh Bortins addresses math in "The Core". Mastery is a big deal in our house, but each year the kids move up, I have to be reminded what that looks like in practice. It is always much more than, "Oh, he/she knows how to do that..." It should look like "He/she can do this perfectly while standing on their head with their eyes closed..." :-)

 

One thing though, I know many of the really good private academies that use Saxon go a grade up. I.e., in K, they use Saxon 1 and so on. So, she may really have covered the material and you may want to do the placement tests, if you haven't.

 

Hope this helps!

[Hunter]

 

One thing though, I know many of the really good private academies that use Saxon go a grade up. I.e., in K, they use Saxon 1 and so on. So, she may really have covered the material and you may want to do the placement tests, if you haven't.

 

"Really good private academies" usually have a very cherry-picked group of students who are not reflective of average child development. One of my sons was radically accelerated in math. One was not. I'm not a fan of DEFAULT acceleration of math for all students. In fact, I abhor the practice.

 

As much as I believe that gifted students have the right to an accelerated curriculum, I even more believe that average students are owed a developmentally appropriate curriculum.

[Professormom]

Hunter, I agree. As the original poster was having issues with the material being too basic, I simply wanted to point out that a jump in grade level is certainly doable. The advice was specific to the post question.

 

Different circumstances would definitely dictate a different response:-)

[Hunter]

Hunter, I agree. As the original poster was having issues with the material being too basic, I simply wanted to point out that a jump in grade level is certainly doable. The advice was specific to the post question.

 

Different circumstances would definitely dictate a different response:-)

 

It was good information you posted. It's useful to know what private academies are doing. It's just so often not applicable, though, to the masses. I hate to see what I sometimes see, but I also like to know. It was a good post! I've been tired. I think a lot of my posts are blunt and I'm responding quickly to topics rather than people. I've been trying to edit myself, but...I don't think I've been doing a good job of it. To survive I'm in full robot mode right now, and it shows in my writing, and NOT in a positive way.

[Χά�ων]

Instead of just jumping would it be possible to switch to a different curriculum? Saxon was mostly review for DS and it spent a lot of time on material he has known for years. I had to take an entirely different approach with math for him. He gets concepts easily and quickly and a spiral program just lead to boredom and disgust with the subject.

[KellyMama]

:iagree yes! This reminds me of the way Leigh Bortins addresses math in "The Core". Mastery is a big deal in our house, but each year the kids move up, I have to be reminded what that looks like in practice. It is always much more than, "Oh, he/she knows how to do that..." It should look like "He/she can do this perfectly while standing on their head with their eyes closed..." :-) One thing though, I know many of the really good private academies that use Saxon go a grade up. I.e., in K, they use Saxon 1 and so on. So, she may really have covered the material and you may want to do the placement tests, if you haven't. Hope this helps!

 

Yes, I think you're right! I think she *can* do it standing on her head, but today she still missed one on her test. She made a simple division error and ended up with 7 1/2 rather than 7 3/8 (she had decided it was 7 4/8 and then reduced). So while I know she needs additional "practice" in her basic skills, the matierial isn't really challenging her. She seems content though, so I'm wondering if I leave her be on our quest for "perfection" because yes, I really do think that is the goal, or do I move her to more challenging concepts (that I feel she is ready for)? I wonder what would happen if I gave her the placement test now that she's halfway through this book? I assume that wouldn't skew the test at all since the concepts she's completed were all review for her LOL! :confused1:

 

Instead of just jumping would it be possible to switch to a different curriculum? Saxon was mostly review for DS and it spent a lot of time on material he has known for years. I had to take an entirely different approach with math for him. He gets concepts easily and quickly and a spiral program just lead to boredom and disgust with the subject.

 

Mercifully, she isn't complaining at all. She cheerfully does all her math and corrections (if there are any) before moving onto the next subject. I know she has to be bored, but to her, it might feel like an accomplishment? I wonder if she would be more emotional and unhappy being too challenged (come to think of it, with her personality, that might explain why she's so subconsciously happy in this curriculum LOL). Any recommendations for a switch? I've considered something like Lial's prealgebra or Horizon if we make a switch. I don't really want an "online" program like SOS or TT. I'm happy with the statistics/test scores I've seen with Saxon, but I know that's a hot topic on the boards since it can vary so widely depending on everyone's personal experiences.

[KellyMama]

So . . . I gave her the placement test this morning. It took her around 20 minutes to complete the first 2 pages. She made 3 mistakes total: 1 computation/division error on 5/4 and forgetting the formula for area of a square - also on 5/4; then 1 fraction computation error on 6/5.

 

According to these results, she should be in 7/6, but I'm wondering how much data is skewed from having her take the test halfway through the year? It's not a big deal, I've got the materials on hand to move her up to 7/6. I just wish I'd done the test in August!! Not sure HOW that slipped past me!! :closedeyes:

[RootAnn]

So, here are your options:

1) Keep doing what you are doing. She's a bit bored, but trooping through & the review isn't going to hurt her.

2) Have her take a "test a day" until she scores below your "low level" & start her in the section right before that (or just go over the types of problems she's missing to make sure she understands).

3) Have her start with 7/6 because the first 1/3 to 1/2 of that book will review 6/5 adequately. (This would be my first choice.)

 

:-)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

DS completed CLE 4th grade last coupled with some tutoring with new school prior to start of this school. He took placement test where they were looking for 80% or better and ended up being placed into Saxon Algebra1. Of course, I was very hesitant about such a placement but the school reassured me he could be moved to a lower level if needed. We did do CLE's Math Skill Development workbooks in preparation to school which are short and effective on Algebra, Geometry and Fractions, Ratios and Proportions:

 

http://www.clp.org/store/by_course/170

 

And so, 5 months later, ds is doing great in Algebra 1. IMHO I would try placement test and probably skip her even to Saxon 87. The school where ds goes to routinely places most kids into Saxon 87 in 5th grade even though most of these kids have no exposure to Saxon Math. Saxon 87 is the lowest starting point at this school. They place some 5th graders into Algebra1/2 and Algebra1 based on testing and have been doing this successfully for years.

[KellyMama]

So, here are your options: 1) Keep doing what you are doing. She's a bit bored, but trooping through & the review isn't going to hurt her. 2) Have her take a "test a day" until she scores below your "low level" & start her in the section right before that (or just go over the types of problems she's missing to make sure she understands). 3) Have her start with 7/6 because the first 1/3 to 1/2 of that book will review 6/5 adequately. (This would be my first choice.) :-)

 

Given the spiral nature of Saxon, I'm leaning towards option #3 also. I'll discuss with my DH tonight. We might do the chapter tests just to be sure. She would probably like that! ;)

 

DS completed CLE 4th grade last coupled with some tutoring with new school prior to start of this school. He took placement test where they were looking for 80% or better and ended up being placed into Saxon Algebra1. Of course, I was very hesitant about such a placement but the school reassured me he could be moved to a lower level if needed. We did do CLE's Math Skill Development workbooks in preparation to school which are short and effective on Algebra, Geometry and Fractions, Ratios and Proportions: http://www.clp.org/store/by_course/170 And so, 5 months later, ds is doing great in Algebra 1. IMHO I would try placement test and probably skip her even to Saxon 87. The school where ds goes to routinely places most kids into Saxon 87 in 5th grade even though most of these kids have no exposure to Saxon Math. Saxon 87 is the lowest starting point at this school. They place some 5th graders into Algebra1/2 and Algebra1 based on testing and have been doing this successfully for years.

 

Since I'm massively "gap phobic" I didn't even give her the rest of the test. LOL I don't want to know (seriously) if she really could do 8/7! LOL Moving her to 7/6 is stretching my comfort level enough! That's pretty interesting though! Since we're coming from Abeka and she was always strong in math, I really think 7/6 is a better fit. I think I just assumed 6/5 for a 5th grader and moved on in my curriculum choices last summer. I don't think the review has hurt her at all. She's going to get plenty of review but she will also learn some new things.

[RootAnn]

We did do CLE's Math Skill Development workbooks in preparation to school which are short and effective on Algebra, Geometry and Fractions, Ratios and Proportions:

http://www.clp.org/store/by_course/170

 

Wow! I'd never seen these before. Thanks for pointing them out & linking to them. I could see dd#2 benefiting from some of these in a couple of years.

:lurk5:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

[/size]

 

Wow! I'd never seen these before. Thanks for pointing them out & linking to them. I could see dd#2 benefiting from some of these in a couple of years.

:lurk5:

 

 

Thanks! They were great. We completed 98% of the 3 workbooks over almost 3 months. Each workbook is about 65 pages. I think they really helped to fill in any gaps especially since we made a huge leap in math in the new school. They are meant to cover these topics as presented in from about CLE grade levels 2-8.

[KellyMama]

Final installment in the story, LOL. DH came home and over-ruled my phobia. DD took the tests all the way up to 8/7 but her results scored her squarely in the 7/6 book. Yay! I was relieved it was a definitive result! I'm ordering her the 7/6 tests/worksheets this week but she can start the book tomorrow (just going to have her use the drills from 6/5 until the new book comes). Thanks for all the input! :)