Needs help w/ 5th grade language art for a struggling student

[Ummto4]

My son is 5th grade and he's not one w/ natural ability in language art. His usage and punctuation are shaky. His writing also sometimes doesn't flow well. Plus he sometimes cannot make good sentences to explain something.

 

His 8 yo sister uses the same thing as him, but all is well with her.

 

This is what we use for his 4th and 5th grade :

- Grammar: KISS and Evan Moore editing.

- Usage: ILL.

- Writing: ILL w/ writing strand 3

- Spelling: Apples and Pears.

I also have one of reading comprehension book for him to do once a week.

 

He learns to summarize via content subjects. He summarizes pretty well verbally, but got messed up in writing.

 

In light of his weaknesses for punctuation and usage as well as his trouble in articulating his thought in writing, I am just wondering, whether I should instead get curricula which teach these skills more explicitly and repetitively. I know he hates GWG (used this for his 3rd grade), so I'm thinking of getting him Hake for grammar and keep Evan Moore for editing. So what I'm thinking is like this:

- Grammar and usage: Evan MOore and Hake (dump ILL- uusage and KISS)

- Spelling: keep A& P

- Writing: WWS 1 (dump WS and ILL-writing).

- keep ILL for the poetry and prose part

 

Do you think I need to give him a chance till he finishes 5th grade and just try to do the same thing dilligently or get a more explicit curricula (above) now?

 

He loves ILL and KISS, but I get a feeling that Hake = GWG except that it's spiral. So, he may hate this, but my gut feeling is that he needs repetition (aka boring curricula) and what we're using, although is good and work really well for my daughter, are not enough for my son.

 

Advice ?

 

TIA

[Pen]

Many of the things you are using or considering are ones with which I am not familiar. I think WWS would be very (too) difficult for a struggling student. My son did not respond well to Writing Strands.

 

I am inclined to think IEW might be of help. I liked Zaner-Bloser for basic LA subjects.

 

I hope you will excuse this question which is meant to be helpful, not critical: Are you able to work with your son on this area well? Errors in your post could just be from dashing off a note, but led me to wonder if this might also be an area of weakness for you, where you might need to farm some Language Arts out to a tutor or online program or some such thing.

 

Your message is completely understandable to me, but it reads like what I might expect from someone who knows English fairly well, but is not a native speaker. (It has not only things like tense and number agreement errors, but also things that do not fit English idiomatic phrasing--which is less likely to be a mistake caused just by quick writing.) If this is a difficult area for you, or if you are not a native English speaker, it may make it that much more difficult for your son to be dealing with LA.

 

ETA: I am not sure whether to delete what I wrote in the paragraph above. I am afraid you may be angry and offended. Yet I also think it is perhaps critical in your decision to know whether you need someone else to help with English Language Arts areas. If it upsets you, please accept my apologies in advance and forgive me.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Pen

[Ummto4]

Many of the things you are using or considering are ones with which I am not familiar. I think WWS would be very (too) difficult for a struggling student. My son did not respond well to Writing Strands.

 

I am inclined to think IEW might be of help. I liked Zaner-Bloser for basic LA subjects.

 

I hope you will excuse this question which is meant to be helpful, not critical: Are you able to work with your son on this area well? Errors in your post could just be from dashing off a note, but led me to wonder if this might also be an area of weakness for you, where you might need to farm some Language Arts out to a tutor or online program or some such thing.

 

Your message is completely understandable to me, but it reads like what I might expect from someone who knows English fairly well, but is not a native speaker. (It has not only things like tense and number agreement errors, but also things that do not fit English idiomatic phrasing--which is less likely to be a mistake caused just by quick writing.) If this is a difficult area for you, or if you are not a native English speaker, it may make it that much more difficult for your son to be dealing with LA.

 

ETA: I am not sure whether to delete what I wrote in the paragraph above. I am afraid you may be angry and offended. Yet I also think it is perhaps critical in your decision to know whether you need someone else to help with English Language Arts areas. If it upsets you, please accept my apologies in advance and forgive me.

 

Thanks for the response. Yes, I'm not a native speaker, although I've been here for 10 years and got my undergrad + grad. degree in the UK. I have to always proof read what I write because in my native language there is neither subject-verb agreement nor tenses unless I'm writing quickly. As a non-native I sometimes also have to pause a bit before saying or writing anything so that it doesn't come out too weird.

 

I will definitely farm out English class in high school and possibly even junior high, but I'm not sure where to ... yet. I'll ask this board next year ..:). But, I sure hope that I can still manage to teach the basic ones.

 

With my son though, I think his difficulties are not caused by him living with non-native parents and being homeschooled. I have an 8 yo daughter who doesn't have difficulties. Hence, I just wonder whether he - although brought up as a native - is a kind of a child who needs more explicit instructions. I even talked to my husband whether it would be a good idea to fetch my English book from junior high when I visit my parents next year. He thought that it'll be too boring ....:).

 

But thanks for the response, and I'll appreciate if you can give me more suggestions.

 

TIA

Edited October 31, 2012 by mom2moon2

[TarynB]

I think WWS would be very (too) difficult for a struggling student. My son did not respond well to Writing Strands.

 

I am inclined to think IEW might be of help.

 

:iagree: Same thoughts here. WWS might be too challenging right now. I am waiting to start my DS on it until 6th grade and I consider him a fairly strong writer for his age. (He finished WWE4 in 4th grade and did well.)

 

We also tried Writing Strands in 4th and he thought it was horribly boring. I did too.

 

IEW has worked wonderfully here.

 

Also, we are using Hake Grammar 5 and we love it. I also looked at GWG before I bought Hake and, IMHO, they are both "workbook-y" but that's about all they have in common. GWG looked quite tedious and the patterns of the exercises are predictable. In GWG it is easy to figure out the pattern and get correct answers without understanding. Hake's sentences have variety, are interesting, and do NOT all fit the same pattern. My DS strongly disliked spiral math but the spiral grammar in Hake is perfect for him.

 

Hope that helps. Best of luck in your search.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Kay_ks

[Pen]

Thanks for the response. Yes, I'm not a native speaker, although I've been here for 10 years and got my undergrad + grad. degree in the UK. I have to always proof read what I write because in my native language there is neither subject-verb agreement nor tenses unless I'm writing quickly. As a non-native I sometimes also have to pause a bit before saying or writing anything so that it doesn't come out too weird.

 

I will definitely farm out English class in high school and possibly even junior high, but I'm not sure where to ... yet. I'll ask this board next year ..:). But, I sure hope that I can still manage to teach the basic ones.

 

With my son though, I think his difficulties are not caused by him living with non-native parents and being homeschooled. I have an 8 yo daughter who doesn't have difficulties. Hence, I just wonder whether he - although brought up as a native - is a kind of a child who needs more explicit instructions. I even talked to my husband whether it would be a good idea to fetch my English book from junior high when I visit my parents next year. He thought that it'll be too boring ....:).

 

But thanks for the response, and I'll appreciate if you can give me more suggestions.

 

 

 

 

Several of the writing curricula depend on the parent teacher being able to pick up errors and help the child. From what you have described, I think IEW with the TWSS and SWI-A might be a good fit. But, I think maybe it could help if you tried IEW, and once your son had done an assignment as well as he could get it, you posted the result to the Writing Workshop here for comments, in addition to looking at it yourself?

As I've not used the grammar possibilities you are considering, I do not know what to suggest of those--in fact, I do not even know what ILL is. I did think Zaner-Bloser's G.U.M. was good--probably down a year from grade level would work. I've not seen Hake grammar. We did not like Saxon math, but the pps comment that Hake grammar worked for them even though the math did not was interesting.

TIA

 

I would also tend to think that an adult English book would bore a child--but who knows.

 

Copywork could be helpful.

[kalanamak]

I don't have a lot of advice, other than to say my son has tolerated Editor in Chief for reinforcement. I cut out their summary pages and review it with him sometimes. It would not be enough for my boy alone. However, we do okay with GWG, and have stuck with it. But, they don't seem the same. E in C if more .... the Singapore Math of usage: right to the point and no spiral. As I said, I use it for reinforcement.

[nansk]

Other workbook options to consider -

 

1. Sadlier-Oxford Grammar For Writing paired with Writing Workshop. You can get a fair idea based on the free additional practice pages online (G4W, WW). I really liked what I saw.

 

2. Diana Hanbury King's Writing Skills books 2 and 3 from EPS (samples from CBD).