Divorce court question about counselor's testimony-for a book

[Hen]

Hi Hive,

 

I'm hoping some of our counselors will chime in here or anyone btdt...really, I am writing a novel, this is not a way to ask questions for myself...not getting a divorce

 

so, My question: if a married couple were in marriage counseling as a last-ditch effort to save the marriage, and one spouse got physical/violent but not out-of-control.. like throwing a vase at the other person in the actual session w/ the counselor present- could the attacked spouse have the counselor testify in a custody case about the attack? Or would that be protected under Dr./patient laws? Or- if the judge ultimately would not allow the counselor to testify, could the attacked spouse at least get the testimony from the counselor in a deposition to put pressure on the attacker to accept a shared custody situation instead of risk losing custody or looking really bad?

 

trying to keep some of this realistic in my story, I haven't gone through divorce, and while I have two friends that have, I haven't been in the courtroom or privy to all the details- and this situation hasn't come up.

 

thanks, all-knowing Hive :001_smile:

Edited October 24, 2012 by Hen Jen
sheeish: I killed a kitten there...

[Joanne]

Hi Hive,

 

I'm hoping some of our counselor's will chime in here or anyone btdt...really, I am writing a novel, this is not a way to ask questions for myself...not getting a divorce

 

so, My question: if a married couple were in marriage counseling as a last-ditch effort to save the marriage, and one spouse got physical/violent but not out-of-control.. like throwing a vase at the other person in the actual session w/ the counselor present- could the attacked spouse have the counselor testify in a custody case about the attack? Or would that be protected under Dr./patient laws? Or- if the judge ultimately would not allow the counselor to testify, could the attacked spouse at least get the testimony from the counselor in a deposition to put pressure on the attacker to accept a shared custody situation instead of risk losing custody or looking really bad?

 

trying to keep some of this realistic in my story, I haven't gone through divorce, and while I have two friends that have, I haven't been in the courtroom or privy to all the details- and this situation hasn't come up.

 

thanks, all-knowing Hive :001_smile:

 

We can be subpoened - compelled - to testify by a judge. We are not required to testify if asked by an attorney.

 

A counselor can't be both an "expert" and a "personal" witness. In other words, the counselor who witness the aggression in a counseling session would not be able to *also* provide expert testimony on abuse in general.

 

In the situation described, many family law courts would be more likely to request a complete psychological evaluation, which would involve a great deal of money and a completely different therapist, often forensically trained, to evaluate all adults and kids involved. This professional would not provide any counseling or treatment.

 

All that said, throwing a vase is an act of reportable aggression to the point of calling 911 and getting a police report, in which case the therapist would be a witness. (And throwing anything is out of control ;))

[misty.warden]

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure performing (or threatening to perform) violent and/or illegal acts is a mandatory reporting offense, meaning they would be required to file a police report about the incident they witnessed.

[Joanne]

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure performing (or threatening to perform) violent and/or illegal acts is a mandatory reporting offense, meaning they would be required to file a police report about the incident they witnessed.

 

 

"Mandatory reporting" typically refers to minors, elderly and disabled.

 

As described, it may be a 911 call.

[misty.warden]

"Mandatory reporting" typically refers to minors, elderly and disabled.

 

As described, it may be a 911 call.

 

:confused: So domestic violence is less serious than other kinds of abuse in this context? That's truly sad.

[Joanne]

:confused: So domestic violence is less serious than other kinds of abuse in this context? That's truly sad.

 

That's not a logical jump. :)

 

The point of *mandatory reporting* is to advocate and protect those who have less capacity and ability to advocate for and protect themselves hence the minors, elderly, and disabled.

 

It's not meant to compare abuse.

[kiana]

:confused: So domestic violence is less serious than other kinds of abuse in this context? That's truly sad.

 

An adult is thought to be able to decide for themselves whether something is reportable, whereas a child (or sometimes, elderly) are thought to be less so.

[Mandy in TN]

Hi Hive,

 

I'm hoping some of our counselor's will chime in here or anyone btdt...really, I am writing a novel, this is not a way to ask questions for myself...not getting a divorce

 

so, My question: if a married couple were in marriage counseling as a last-ditch effort to save the marriage, and one spouse got physical/violent but not out-of-control.. like throwing a vase at the other person in the actual session w/ the counselor present- could the attacked spouse have the counselor testify in a custody case about the attack? Or would that be protected under Dr./patient laws? Or- if the judge ultimately would not allow the counselor to testify, could the attacked spouse at least get the testimony from the counselor in a deposition to put pressure on the attacker to accept a shared custody situation instead of risk losing custody or looking really bad?

 

trying to keep some of this realistic in my story, I haven't gone through divorce, and while I have two friends that have, I haven't been in the courtroom or privy to all the details- and this situation hasn't come up.

 

thanks, all-knowing Hive :001_smile:

I had an order of protection against my xh for a full year. It didn't stop him from asking for custody. He didn't get custody, but it didn't stop the court from giving him unsupervised visitation.

 

We went to counseling, but abusers can also be scmoozers. This type of man would never in a million years throw something in front of a counselor. They are way too aware of social norms and abuse laws and how to get around them. Honestly, they go through cycles where they are very charming. Then, you are walking on egg shells waiting for Mr. Hyde to arrive. Mr. Hyde makes his appearance and then he is shortly followed by Prince Charming complete with wooing. In counseling and court they look appropriate, well-spoken, even humble.

 

I knew a woman who had audio of her xh threatening her. The court heard it, gave her custody, but still gave him unsupervised visitation.

 

Scary, scary men know the system. They do things primarily when they think they will not be caught and their actions are accompanied by verbal threats. Threats intended to cause the victim not to talk about what has happened.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[misty.warden]

Perhaps I used the term "mandatory reporting" in the wrong sense, or it has a very specific legal meaning as well as just meaning to be required to report the incident. As a witness, he would probably be compelled to testify about it also.

 

My original meaning was that, as a lawyer, he would be required to report any illegal activity he witnesses or is told will occur, abuse or not. Much like how cops must investigate bomb threats called in, not just ones reported to be happening at schools or hospitals. The leap comparing elder, child, and domestic abuse I made was because of the statement that "mandatory reporting" refers typically only to certain types of abuse.

 

(This is getting OT but I think if one is required to report some illegal activities, they should be required to report them all, since there is only one level of "illegal" and IMO classifying them as "must report" and "don't have to but could" seems arbitrary since even an adult could not be their own best advocate, especially in domestic violence situations)

[Mandy in TN]

Hi Hive,

 

I'm hoping some of our counselor's will chime in here or anyone btdt...really, I am writing a novel, this is not a way to ask questions for myself...not getting a divorce

 

so, My question: if a married couple were in marriage counseling as a last-ditch effort to save the marriage, and one spouse got physical/violent but not out-of-control.. like throwing a vase at the other person in the actual session w/ the counselor present- could the attacked spouse have the counselor testify in a custody case about the attack? Or would that be protected under Dr./patient laws? Or- if the judge ultimately would not allow the counselor to testify, could the attacked spouse at least get the testimony from the counselor in a deposition to put pressure on the attacker to accept a shared custody situation instead of risk losing custody or looking really bad?

 

trying to keep some of this realistic in my story, I haven't gone through divorce, and while I have two friends that have, I haven't been in the courtroom or privy to all the details- and this situation hasn't come up.

 

thanks, all-knowing Hive :001_smile:

Ok I would also say that an abuser who would be willing to go to counseling would be controlling and sure that the counseling session would make him look good and his wife look crazy.

 

An abuser who is out of control is not likely to be willing to go to counseling. One who is out of control and arrogant enough to go to counseling would think himself untouchable. So, if he threw something, he would not comprehend that his action toward his wife would have anything to do with seeing his kids.

 

Just what I've seen.

Mandy

[Joanne]

I had an order of protection against my xh for a full year. It didn't stop him from asking for custody. He didn't get custody, but it didn't stop the court from giving him unsupervised visitation.

 

We went to counseling, but abusers can also be scmoozers. This type of man would never in a million years throw something in front of a counselor. They are way too aware of social norms and abuse laws and how to get around them. Honestly, they go through cycles where they are very charming. Then, you are walking on egg shells waiting for Mr. Hyde to arrive. Mr. Hyde makes his appearance and then he is shortly followed by Prince Charming complete with wooing. In counseling and court they look appropriate, well-spoken, even humble.

 

I knew a woman who had audio of her xh threatening her. The court heard it, gave her custody, but still gave him unsupervised visitation.

 

Scary, scary men know the system. They do things primarily when they think they will not be caught and their actions are accompanied by verbal threats. Threats intended to cause the victim not to talk about what has happened.

 

HTH-

Mandy

 

Have you read Lundy Bancroft? Your ex (apparently a genetic match to mine) is all over Bancroft's work. :grouphug::grouphug:

[Jennifer3141]

I had an order of protection against my xh for a full year. It didn't stop him from asking for custody. He didn't get custody, but it didn't stop the court from giving him unsupervised visitation.

 

We went to counseling, but abusers can also be scmoozers. This type of man would never in a million years throw something in front of a counselor. They are way too aware of social norms and abuse laws and how to get around them. Honestly, they go through cycles where they are very charming. Then, you are walking on egg shells waiting for Mr. Hyde to arrive. Mr. Hyde makes his appearance and then he is shortly followed by Prince Charming complete with wooing. In counseling and court they look appropriate, well-spoken, even humble.

 

I knew a woman who had audio of her xh threatening her. The court heard it, gave her custody, but still gave him unsupervised visitation.

 

Scary, scary men know the system. They do things primarily when they think they will not be caught and their actions are accompanied by verbal threats. Threats intended to cause the victim not to talk about what has happened.

 

HTH-

Mandy

 

Manyd, I agree with you 99%. However, I think there is an exception for when this kind of schmoozer loses control - when he realizes his schmoozing doesn't work anymore and never will again.

 

I had a good friend like this and it took everyone a long time to understand that the man we all saw was NOT the same man at home. My friend's ex "lost it" in front of myself and another friend, despite having had tight control for YEARS, when he realized we knew. I wish he'd only thrown ONE vase at us.

 

But once he knew that we knew who he really was, that control slipped and he flipped. And my friend and I, being the evil manipulators we were knew enough to get the police and other witnesses involved in moments. A year later in court, he tried to say that violence never happened but there was me, the other friend, and the soon-to-be ex as immediate witnesses (although she still didn't want to testify initially) and the other friend and I got our DHs within seconds. And then we had the police there before anything could be cleaned up.

 

So I believe in the tightly controlled guy but no one has total control 100% of the time. And when these people blow, it can be an immense eruption.

[Mandy in TN]

Have you read Lundy Bancroft? Your ex (apparently a genetic match to mine) is all over Bancroft's work. :grouphug::grouphug:

 

No, I may check it out, but honestly it isn't something I want to re-visit.

Sorry, you were there. It's a scary place to be.:grouphug:

Mandy

[Mandy in TN]

Manyd, I agree with you 99%. However, I think there is an exception for when this kind of schmoozer loses control - when he realizes his schmoozing doesn't work anymore and never will again.

 

I had a good friend like this and it took everyone a long time to understand that the man we all saw was NOT the same man at home. My friend's ex "lost it" in front of myself and another friend, despite having had tight control for YEARS, when he realized we knew. I wish he'd only thrown ONE vase at us.

 

But once he knew that we knew who he really was, that control slipped and he flipped. And my friend and I, being the evil manipulators we were knew enough to get the police and other witnesses involved in moments. A year later in court, he tried to say that violence never happened but there was me, the other friend, and the soon-to-be ex as immediate witnesses (although she still didn't want to testify initially) and the other friend and I got our DHs within seconds. And then we had the police there before anything could be cleaned up.

 

So I believe in the tightly controlled guy but no one has total control 100% of the time. And when these people blow, it can be an immense eruption.

 

FWIW, the abused women I met through this tended to fall into one of three groups.

 

1. There were the ones who wanted to discuss what they could have done differently so that their husband would have treated them better. Mostly, they wanted to keep their husband. They focused on the Prince Charming version and on some level blamed themselves for the appearance of Mr. Hyde. Maybe they thought they could change him or maybe their Prince Charming was very charming indeed.

 

2. There were the ones who were scared senseless. Most of us had every right to be scared, but these woman were scared to the point that they were doing very little to protect themselves. Some were convinced that no one could help them: the abuser would find them and do whatever he wanted. Maybe their Mr. Hyde had committed atrocities that were too hard to get past. (On a sad note, maybe they were right. Maybe some of these women ended up dead at the hands of their Mr. Hyde or were destined to live the rest of their lives from episode to episode.)

 

3. There were the ones who were angry. The ones who knew that Prince Charming only arrived on the heels of Mr. Hyde. We were angry at ourselves for letting it go on so long, angry at the courts for laws that don't protect and only react, and angry enough that we had decided that if he were going to kill us that we were going to be certain that everyone looked at him immediately. Maybe there was enough of a balance between Prince Charming and Mr. Hyde that we felt we stood a chance if we could just get away from him.

 

At the time though I was even angry at the other two groups of women. I was angry, because with group one I couldn't believe that anyone who had worked up the courage to leave would be blaming themselves or considering going back. I was angry with the second group, because I felt like they had given up and were going to allow Mr. Hyde to determine their lives.

 

HTH-

Mandy

Edited October 25, 2012 by Mandy in TN

[Mandy in TN]

Also, remember that these men are not abusers all the time. If they were, I would like to think that no one would stay with them. Sometimes, other people only see the flowers, gifts, handwritten poetry, and verbal and physical affection. Some people only see Prince Charming and don't understand why you would want to leave that kind of devotion. Sometimes the friend who you think has the best husband ever is the one who is abused at home.

 

Mandy

[Joanne]

No, I may check it out, but honestly it isn't something I want to re-visit.

Sorry, you were there. It's a scary place to be.:grouphug:

Mandy

 

I understand. It offers a lot of support, and information about having been through that dynamic. I hope that either informally or formally, you got healing from PTSD.

 

Brancroft has a site with some good articles in case you ever want to "go there." It is also a good resource if you are trying to educate someone on the evil and insidiousness of abuse from a manipulative charmer.

[Hen]

Wow, thank you, everyone- I checked back hoping for at least one response and found a whole conversation and really helpful information. Thank you.

 

Mandy, I am so sorry you lived through that. You are very brave.

 

I might kill the thread with this, but I think I should have been more specific, the scene I described involves a woman as the vase-thrower. A woman who uses verbal/emotional means to control and only resorts to physical once before. Losing control in front of a trained professional happens during a full-out N-Rage, not something she would choose to do.

 

I know that this pattern is mostly male as the abuser, but for the husband, it can be a no-win situation...shame at not being "stronger", not being believed...all can happen.

 

so, not trying to diminish the horrible reality women face, my story centers on the helplessness of being a man, and a father in an emotional/verbal abusive relationship.

 

I am looking for a way for my character, the husband, to be able to get 50% physical custody when normally, the mother would automatically get it. I plan for this vase-throwing/witnessed event to be the catalyst for a psych evaluation that would give the Father a greater role in his kids' lives after the divorce.

 

thank you for your replies.

[misty.warden]

The "mother always gets custody" issue depends on the state in which one gets divorced. Oregon, for one, defaults to 50% physical and legal custody in the event of a divorce unless the parents make other arrangements or one parent is deemed unfit. The tender-years doctrine, that young children require specifically to live with their mother during their formative years, is on the downswing.

 

Depending on the location and time period in which your books is set, this may change the issue you describe.

[Mandy in TN]

Wow, thank you, everyone- I checked back hoping for at least one response and found a whole conversation and really helpful information. Thank you.

 

Mandy, I am so sorry you lived through that. You are very brave.

 

I might kill the thread with this, but I think I should have been more specific, the scene I described involves a woman as the vase-thrower. A woman who uses verbal/emotional means to control and only resorts to physical once before. Losing control in front of a trained professional happens during a full-out N-Rage, not something she would choose to do.

 

I know that this pattern is mostly male as the abuser, but for the husband, it can be a no-win situation...shame at not being "stronger", not being believed...all can happen.

 

so, not trying to diminish the horrible reality women face, my story centers on the helplessness of being a man, and a father in an emotional/verbal abusive relationship.

 

I am looking for a way for my character, the husband, to be able to get 50% physical custody when normally, the mother would automatically get it. I plan for this vase-throwing/witnessed event to be the catalyst for a psych evaluation that would give the Father a greater role in his kids' lives after the divorce.

 

thank you for your replies.

I still find it unlikely that she would loose it in front of a counselor unless there were mental illness involved. Maybe someone who was bipolar would behave that way while manic when she was unable to calculate the consequences. Maybe a narcissist who thinks themselves above consequence would do that. A drunk or addict? However, I think it very likely that an abusive woman would be comfortable enough in her own home in front of her inlaws, close family friends, or her own parents to cross the line in front of them. A situation where she was just so used to behaving badly that it was her normal and she did something in front others.

 

Also, it wouldn't just be the violence of throwing something. It would be the verbal abuse that accompanies it. She would be yelling at him telling him what a loser he was as a provider, a husband, a father, a lover. He is useless and pathetic. No one else would want him or put up with him.

 

I don't know for sure but I would guess that female abusers are even less likely to be suspected than men even if they are not charming. I would think that a woman could be flat out hateful in front of people and still no one would immediately jump to the conclusion that she was abusive at home. Also, I agree that a man may feel emasculated and not want to admit what is happening because he blames himself. Perhaps he thinks that others would be dismissive of the situation because he is the man. Maybe he thinks others would see him as being wimpy and that embarrasses him.

 

If the woman's own close friends were horrified and agreed to testify for the husband, maybe that would be enough. I just don't know. In TN when xh and I divorced, a mother had to be proven abusive, neglectful, or participating in immoral/ illegal behavior in front of the kids in order to loose custody. Fathers could be abusive to the mom as long as he was not abusive to the kids. He could be an ex-con. He would still get visitation. Dealing with the court system is like falling down the rabbit hole. It just doesn't always seem very logical and often the person who gets what they want is the one who can afford the best lawyer for the longest period of time.

 

It may work just as well in story form as in real life for the man to have a fabulous attorney and thankfully the wife does not. This coupled with a public outburst might be enough, but who knows. I have heard all kinds for custody stories that just make no sense.

 

Mandy

[Jpoy85]

I had an order of protection against my xh for a full year. It didn't stop him from asking for custody. He didn't get custody, but it didn't stop the court from giving him unsupervised visitation.

 

We went to counseling, but abusers can also be scmoozers. This type of man would never in a million years throw something in front of a counselor. They are way too aware of social norms and abuse laws and how to get around them. Honestly, they go through cycles where they are very charming. Then, you are walking on egg shells waiting for Mr. Hyde to arrive. Mr. Hyde makes his appearance and then he is shortly followed by Prince Charming complete with wooing. In counseling and court they look appropriate, well-spoken, even humble.

 

I knew a woman who had audio of her xh threatening her. The court heard it, gave her custody, but still gave him unsupervised visitation.

 

Scary, scary men know the system. They do things primarily when they think they will not be caught and their actions are accompanied by verbal threats. Threats intended to cause the victim not to talk about what has happened.

 

HTH-

Mandy

 

:grouphug:

Edited October 25, 2012 by Jpoy85

[bkpan]

Perhaps I used the term "mandatory reporting" in the wrong sense, or it has a very specific legal meaning as well as just meaning to be required to report the incident. As a witness, he would probably be compelled to testify about it also.

 

My original meaning was that, as a lawyer, he would be required to report any illegal activity he witnesses or is told will occur, abuse or not. Much like how cops must investigate bomb threats called in, not just ones reported to be happening at schools or hospitals. The leap comparing elder, child, and domestic abuse I made was because of the statement that "mandatory reporting" refers typically only to certain types of abuse.

 

(This is getting OT but I think if one is required to report some illegal activities, they should be required to report them all, since there is only one level of "illegal" and IMO classifying them as "must report" and "don't have to but could" seems arbitrary since even an adult could not be their own best advocate, especially in domestic violence situations)

 

If counselors, therapists, attorneys, etc. were required to report ALL illegal activity then no one would seek help or assistance.