Placement after CC courses-your thoughts.

[Catherine]

My ds is a freshman at University of Rochester (with Creekland's son!) and I am stewing about a conversation I had with him yesterday. I'd love to hear your thoughts about it.

 

He has taken college classes at three different institutions, two four year schools, and one community college, and took one AP. He told me his advisor said that of course he can get credit (not just placement, but actual credit) for the CC courses. I don't think this is a good idea. One course was a year long physics without calc class. It was HARD. The prof definitely didn't do grade inflation, and the work was consistently challenging. Ds worked his tail off for the B he managed both semesters (this was a high grade in the class BTW). But it was without calculus. The other was a semester long chemistry course, which we chose because we thought it would be the equivalent of a high school level course. It was NOT chem 101, General Chemistry, which was 2 semesters. He hadn't had HS chem yet so it seemed like a good compromise. There was a lab.

 

He is planning engineering major. I think it's just not a good idea for him to skip over foundational courses for his major with only these CC classes for background-I fear he will not know enough for the next step.

 

He will, and should, get transfer credit for the two courses he took at 4 year schools.

 

Does anyone have any experience with this? Maybe I need to stop "helicoptering" and let him figure it out for himself.

[Candid]

Probably some helicoptering reduction might be helpful, but I'd tell you that no matter what! ;)

 

Instead of telling him things, why not ask him questions that will help guide his decision?

 

Does the physics class you can place out of have calculus? How did you do in class X? Will these come in and allow you to skip requisites or are they just coming in as padding? If you take the next class at Rochester and realize you can't do the work can you drop the class? How late? How late would you be able to add the class that you should have taken? Could you sign up and take both levels and then drop one of them?

[Brenda in MA]

He is planning engineering major. I think it's just not a good idea for him to skip over foundational courses for his major with only these CC classes for background-I fear he will not know enough for the next step.

 

He will, and should, get transfer credit for the two courses he took at 4 year schools.

 

Does anyone have any experience with this? Maybe I need to stop "helicoptering" and let him figure it out for himself.

 

Catherine,

 

I would have him ask what kind of credit they are granting for the CC courses. Perhaps these will be free electives instead of required courses for his major?

 

Either way, I'm surprised that they will grant credit for the non-Calc physics at all, and he would almost certainly have to take Calc-based physics for an engineering major any way. Regarding the chemistry -- if they'll give him credit for that, and he isn't planning on Chem Eng, I'd let him take it and move on. From my experience, Chem I is usually a requirement for all engineering majors, but the only engineers who need more chemistry are the Chem Es and possibly the Materials Es.

 

My son took transfer credit for Chem I from a CC at his engineering school since he's studying Mech E. It was a good decision because Chem I is a hard/weeder course at his school. The only slight issue he had was a rusty knowledge of chemistry when he had to take Material Science, but he was able to brush up where needed and did OK.

 

If he can get enough transfer credit to shave off a whole semester at U of R, that could save you a huge pile of $$. Also, my son was able to take a semester off and do a coop, and he will still graduate on time due to his transfer credits. So I would think long and hard about not accepting transfer credit if the school will take it.

 

JM2Cents,

Brenda

[kiana]

Catherine,

 

I would have him ask what kind of credit they are granting for the CC courses. Perhaps these will be free electives instead of required courses for his major?

 

Either way, I'm surprised that they will grant credit for the non-Calc physics at all, and he would almost certainly have to take Calc-based physics for an engineering major any way. Regarding the chemistry -- if they'll give him credit for that, and he isn't planning on Chem Eng, I'd let him take it and move on. From my experience, Chem I is usually a requirement for all engineering majors, but the only engineers who need more chemistry are the Chem Es and possibly the Materials Es.

 

My son took transfer credit for Chem I from a CC at his engineering school since he's studying Mech E. It was a good decision because Chem I is a hard/weeder course at his school. The only slight issue he had was a rusty knowledge of chemistry when he had to take Material Science, but he was able to brush up where needed and did OK.

 

If he can get enough transfer credit to shave off a whole semester at U of R, that could save you a huge pile of $$. Also, my son was able to take a semester off and do a coop, and he will still graduate on time due to his transfer credits. So I would think long and hard about not accepting transfer credit if the school will take it.

 

JM2Cents,

Brenda

 

The university I am at now has a 'transition' course for students who took non-calc-based physics. It's a one-semester course that basically catches you up on the calc and how it applies to the physics courses. Maybe they have something similar? Otherwise it would probably count as a general elective. He needs to ask, though.

[regentrude]

Who exactly was he talking to?

He needs to make sure to talk to somebody in his engineering department who knows what exactly the requirements for his major are. If calculus based physics is required, a class taken in algebra based physics will not give credit that counts towards his major. If his advisor gives this kind of advice, it would be wise to get a second opinion, so that he does not find out at a later point that he is missing credits.

Every semester I am dealing with students who have beenda dvised poorly, so my first recommendation would be to check. Often schools have lists of which transfer credits they accept from which institutions in lieu of which class.

But generally, less helicoptering is probably a good thing ;-)

[Catherine]

Excellent advice. I will try it.

[Catherine]

His advisor is a Mech E professor. His planned major (as of this week-LOL) is optical engineering. So I think the chemistry stuff is probably OK and we can let this go.

 

I will ask a simple question or two about whether his advisor is privy to all the info he needs.

 

Then the helicoptering stops. LOL.

[AngieW in Texas]

I would expect that an engineering major would require calculus-based physics. He doesn't need to take another algebra-based physics first.

 

I would also expect that his major would require chemistry for science majors.

 

I'll bet that he's actually getting elective credit for these courses, because they shouldn't count as requirements for his degree at all. They aren't the right level.

[regentrude]

I'll bet that he's actually getting elective credit for these courses, because they shouldn't count as requirements for his degree at all. They aren't the right level.

 

This also needs checking. At our university, lower level science/math courses than the ones required for the degree do NOT count as electives. A student who needs calculus based physics for an engineering degree would not get any elective credit for an algebra based physics course; the catalog specifically spells this out.

It may be different at your son's school.

[Brenda in MA]

His advisor is a Mech E professor. His planned major (as of this week-LOL) is optical engineering. So I think the chemistry stuff is probably OK and we can let this go.

 

I will ask a simple question or two about whether his advisor is privy to all the info he needs.

 

Then the helicoptering stops. LOL.

 

Catherine,

 

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about too much helicoptering. After all, a new college student often does not understand the nuances of requirements for humanities courses, technical electives, prerequisites, etc. An honest mistake now due to poor advising could lead to more semesters of school, more money, not being prepared for a class, etc. Given how much college costs these days, I know that we certainly can't afford any innocent mistakes.

 

I would suggest getting a copy of the college catalog that lists the requirements for your son's major so you can understand which courses will satisfy which requirements, and you can help advise him, too. All of the catalog info is probably available on-line.

 

I can remember back when I was in college, my adviser was a brand new professor, right out of grad school, who had just stepped on to that campus the same week I did. He meant well, but he really didn't understand the details of the requirements at that school for all the majors, minors, etc. Fortunately I was in a double major program that didn't really allow for electives, so his advising wasn't really needed.

 

Brenda

[Kathy in Richmond]

OK, so as an alumna of engineering at U of R, my curiosity got the better of me, and I had to go take a look at their current engineering requirements.:)

 

For optical engineering, your son will only need one semester of chemistry (Chem 131). Currently the chem department only offers one introductory chemistry sequence, and it uses a Zumdahl text. It's aimed at science and engineering majors. If they're offering him credit for this class, I'd suggest that he take it.

 

For physics, there are currently three introductory sequences: 113-114 aimed at life sciences, 121-122-123 aimed at physical sciences & engineering, 141-142-143 honors version for majors. Interestingly, all three series are calculus-based.

 

Optical engineering requires either the 12x or 14x series. Just like in the old days (ahem, the early 70's! and the physics dept hasn't changed it's course #s since then) both Physics 121 and 141 begin in the spring semester, so that students are well grounded in calculus before they begin. I took the three 12x classes, and calculus was used frequently and in depth. The first semester is mechanics, then E&M, and finally waves & modern physics in the third semester.

 

So your son should definitely check what physics course they're proposing to credit him with for his CC studies. I'd suggest that it might be a very good idea to take the complete sequence at Rochester.

[creekland]

Interesting... we were told no dual enrollment classes nor CLEP tests would count for credit, but my guy isn't Engineering. I wonder if the major matters. It doesn't matter much for us as I don't want my guy taking credits here vs other courses (English, Microbio, Effective Speaking). I'm simply curious.

 

My guy has 8 credits (2 classes, Psych & Stats) for his AP scores. He's accepting those.

 

As suggested before, Chem won't matter much for an Engineer (except Chemical Engineering). Physics is important. Calc based Physics is the only "real" Physics. The rest is conceptual and good for a basic understanding of concepts, but not for making real life applications.

[regentrude]

I completely agree that Engineers need calc based physics, but I find the following statement misleading:

 

Calc based Physics is the only "real" Physics. The rest is conceptual and good for a basic understanding of concepts, but not for making real life applications.

 

Sorry, but that is not entirely true. Many applications do not require any calculus. Calculus is needed at a very underlying level, to establish relations between forces and potential energies, for example, but once the relationships have been derived and established, an algebra and trigonometry based physics course is very "real". not just conceptual, but allows quantitative predictions.

Just for example, most things related to Newton's laws on forces can be done with algebra and trigonometry - you do not need to interpret F=ma as F=dp/dt in order to apply it. Projectile motion can be derived completely without calculus; for any practical purpose it makes no difference. DC electricity and Ohm's law - works just fine.

So, while there certainly are areas where calculus is needed, it may come as a surprise to many that algebra based physics goes a very long way.

The biggest limitation is probably the understanding of electromagnetism, where calculus is essential to establish Maxwell's equations.

[creekland]

Sorry, but that is not entirely true. Many applications do not require any calculus. Calculus is needed at a very underlying level, to establish relations between forces and potential energies, for example, but once the relationships have been derived and established, an algebra and trigonometry based physics course is very "real". not just conceptual, but allows quantitative predictions.

Just for example, most things related to Newton's laws on forces can be done with algebra and trigonometry - you do not need to interpret F=ma as F=dp/dt in order to apply it. Projectile motion can be derived completely without calculus; for any practical purpose it makes no difference. DC electricity and Ohm's law - works just fine.

So, while there certainly are areas where calculus is needed, it may come as a surprise to many that algebra based physics goes a very long way.

The biggest limitation is probably the understanding of electromagnetism, where calculus is essential to establish Maxwell's equations.

 

:iagree: I was just taking a minute or two to write down something that was a running "theme" from the Physics dept/students at the school where I got my degree. It was half humor, but some, of course, truly believe it. ;)

 

There are areas of Physics that don't require Calc, but most do in order to truly get precise answers accurately. Accuracy is not needed by the general public, but for some engineers, it sure is.

 

FWIW, I never truly understood much of Calc until I used it in Physics.

[Catherine]

I agree. Trig-based physics, like the course ds took at CC, or the one I had in college, lo those many years ago, can be very useful and rigorous. There is SO much variation in what is out there, in terms of quality and depth.

[Starr]

We found that all previous classes had to be approved by the registrar to determine actual credit. Generally they have to be almost the exact class to transfer as a required course. They often happily accepted them as electives.

[creekland]

I had extra time this morning and got curious about dual enrollment so looked up their adviser handbook. It appears they now DO allow dual enrollment credit as long as the class wasn't taken at a high school (like our high school does with "college in the high school" classes. They don't allow grades to transfer, but do allow credit. I might mention it to my guy and let him get credit for his courses if he decides he wants to. I don't know that he'll need the credits, but he should know it's a possibility. Instead of having just 8 credits, he'd have 16 (they still don't give English credit). That's the equivalent of a semester.

 

http://www.rochester.edu/college/ccas/AdviserHandbook/TransferCrdt.html

 

In your situation, I'd still go for the Chem credit. There's no reason he needs to repeat that course IMO.

[Brenda in MA]

I don't know that he'll need the credits, but he should know it's a possibility. Instead of having just 8 credits, he'd have 16 (they still don't give English credit). That's the equivalent of a semester.

 

 

 

Among the reasons to consider accepting the credits, even if they are just marked as electives, is if the school does registration by credit. My son's college does this. In the registration period, they allow the students with the most credits to register first. That generally lets the seniors register first, then juniors, sophomores, etc.

 

My son's transfer credits always ensured that he had the earliest registration allowed for his class because he always had a few more credits than most of the other students in his class. This way, he always had the best pick of sections/professors and certain technical electives that tend to be popular.

 

Brenda

[Catherine]

An excellent point! I don't know if UR does this, but I will check.