Climbing to Good English CGE

[lorisuewho]

Starting this thread as a spin off of the Logic of English thread.

 

Who uses this curriculum? Do you like it?

 

We just started using CGE Gr. 1 and plan to breeze through some of the pages and then start CGE Gr. 2 in the fall. So far it seems well-organized and thorough. We are pleased.

 

I purchased mine at Clay Bookstore in Ephrata, PA. But I have also seen the books at Rainbow Resource and rodandstaffbooks.com.

[atozmom]

For those of you wanting diagramming, and have started the lower levels of CGE, do know that CGE covers diagramming extensively, in the upper levels. So much so, that I was quite surprised.

 

Noooo, I didn't know this!! I am so happy right now!!! :D Why didn't I look at the other levels when I was at convention?? I didn't think to do this. We only own levels 1 and 2.

 

Lori, what I did was invest in the two teacher books for 5-6 and 7-8 to get a view of where the curriculum was heading. Then when I saw it was right, I ordered the student workbooks. I was lucky that Rainbow had some damaged copies and I was already putting in an order.

 

This is the first curriculum I ever bought the full set ahead of time. It really helps me to see the whole picture. Because every single lesson is meant to be completed, just viewing one year can be deceiving. They don't repeat every type of lesson every year, forcing you to figure out what to complete and what to skip. So it can look like important composition topics are skipped, when they are not. I can see that at times I might want to redo a composition lesson from an earlier year, when doing a unit study, and certain type of writing is called for.

 

The only R&S book I ever owned was the OLD grade 8 when there was no grades 9-10. I really liked that book. It was the finale. CGE reminds me of the old R&S which I fear has become too updated for me. I adore finale curricula. CGE 5-8 come with handbook appendixes. The grade 7/8 handbook is extremely useful as an adult resource. I have never seen a curriculum that masters letter writing, any better. I recommend this curriculum for the letter writing instructions alone. The 5/6 handbook would be useful as a resource in the younger years. The thesaurus is particularly nice, and could be used in a variety of types of vocabulary lessons.

 

CGE is worthy of putting on a bookshelf as a reference even if you don't use it.

 

I have grades 4-8 of CGE spread out on the floor.

 

Book reports are covered in grade 4, and then more in depth in 5 and 6. Then book reports are NOT covered again in 7 and 8. There are reports including a biography report, but not a specific book report.

 

Diagramming is simple subject/verb/DO in grade 4. Grades 5 and 5 tackle advanced diagramming. Diagramming is in the HANDBOOK for grades 7 and 8, but there are NO diagramming LESSONS in 7 and 8. I didn't realize that.

 

I noticed topics not covered in grade 4 that were covered in grade 3. That was the first time I realized how much CGE expected a student to master a topic in a grade level, and didn't repeat everything in every grade.

 

I think I'm going to need to scan and print out the handbooks in the back, and the most important composition lessons, to have as a resource. I like the presentation of the lessons very much, but might find that I need to repeat the lessons more often than 36X3 allows.

 

I don't have any of the supplemental worksheets. I'm going to assume they are mostly grammar review and not more composition. It would be interesting to see how much diagramming is in the worksheets. My preference is to do more composition, rather than more diagramming and grammar.

 

It looks like one of use tagged this for CGE. I don't remember doing it, so it must have been you :-) We'll need to tag this thread up.

 

I like that all reports and composition do not include worksheets and graphic organizers. Everything is shown in cursive outline examples, and are meant to be completed on regular notebook paper. It reminds me of Student's of the Word, but better. I really like generic instructions, that are meant to be completed in paragraphs. Often these type of instructions are vague and sloppy, but CGE isn't.

 

Here is what was in the other thread that prompted a new thread. Hopefully I got it all. :001_smile:

[atozmom]

Thought I'd move my question from the other thread here so others could see it as well.

 

I noticed topics not covered in grade 4 that were covered in grade 3. That was the first time I realized how much CGE expected a student to master a topic in a grade level, and didn't repeat everything in every grade.

 

 

 

So, could a student start in the grade 4 book or would there be too much missed to do so?

[mamaeast]

What's the difference between Climbing to Good English and Building Christian English? We use BCE and we love it. It is very, very thorough. We sort of breezed through the third grade book in our first year of school here, and completed half of the fourth grade book.

 

Can you tell me more about this Clay bookstore? I'm about 30 minutes from Ephrata.

[Hunter]

I just gave grade 4 another look through.

 

As well as subject/verb/DO diagramming, there are also compound subject and compound verb diagramming. I'm sorry I missed that last night. It's in unit 1, and I didn't expect to see that before S/V/DO.

 

Grade 4 starts with basic sentence types and parts of speech. It might be a better entry level than 3, because 3 is finishing off the controversial respelling exercises started in grade 2, and typical CGE, doesn't regurgitate that topic for review in all grades.

 

I don't see anything in grade 4 that requires the use of grade 3. It is more what is NOT included in grade 4 that might be a concern. I'm skimming fast and trying to remember, but I believe that some common composition types are not covered. At quick glance I do not see expository essays, but there is a news story and report writing. I see an autobiography but not a narrative essay or story writing.

 

Grades 5-6 cover the exact same tops, but at different difficulty levels. Grades 7-8 does the same thing. This allows the teacher to teach 2 grades at once. The supplementary lesson do not require teaching and are review of previously taught lessons. CGE was written first and foremost to be completely doable in a one room school house, and sacrifices whatever is necessary to accomplish that, as the primary goal.

 

The series is quite rigorous. Many average and remedial students would do better placed lower than grade level, and repeating certain lessons more than once, or redoing lessons from the previous year. I see no need to supplement this curriculum, but I prefer to repeat some lessons. I think there is huge value in being able to practice certain composition types.

 

Many of the students, with moms here, are gifted and precocious and will do great with the series as written, but I'm a slow and steady type teacher.

 

I appreciate the reduced # of lessons. I have a horrible time figuring out what to skip in longer books. I much prefer to redo lessons rather than skip lessons. And I think students thrive off of revisiting previous topics without having anything new added in.

 

Previously I had been overcomplicating the writing process. It has been a relief to just do the CGE compositions and not tweak or add or try to perfect the lessons. I was swallowed up in a sea of graphic organizers and worksheets and instructions. The lessons were so overcomplicated, that the important parts were invisible under the details. And the lessons were not presented with clear instructions meant to be handwritten, and in drafts.

 

Right now I am experimenting with having my adult remedial students work slowly through a low level workbook and assigning extra composition lessons pulled from different levels as needed. So far that is working. And I am working ahead in the series myself, trying to get a strong familiarity with it.

 

I'm finding it necessary to set some boundaries with my students, and carve out a general curriculum that I teach with. Then to tweak it for them, but not let them set the center that I revolve around. It was exhausting trying to revolve around several students at once. CGE has allowed me to ground myself. It's good enough for everyone as long as I tweak it. Maybe not the BEST for certain students, but good enough for everyone.

 

Some of the ESL students do need some concentrated compare/contrast writing for a test they take, but I find most of them are in too much of a rush to take the test without covering the basics first, and I'm putting my foot down about rushing into that type of lesson. Those students are going to have to earn the compare/contrast lessons, after they have covered general reading and writing to my satisfaction. Or go elsewhere.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Hunter

[atozmom]

I just gave grade 4 another look through.

 

As well as subject/verb/DO diagramming, there are also compound subject and compound verb diagramming. I'm sorry I missed that last night. It's in unit 1, and I didn't expect to see that before S/V/DO.

 

Grade 4 starts with basic sentence types and parts of speech. It might be a better entry level than 3, because 3 is finishing off the controversial respelling exercises started in grade 2, and typical CGE, doesn't regurgitate that topic for review in all grades.

 

I don't see anything in grade 4 that requires the use of grade 3. It is more what is NOT included in grade 4 that might be a concern. I'm skimming fast and trying to remember, but I believe that some common composition types are not covered. At quick glance I do not see expository essays, but there is a news story and report writing. I see an autobiography but not a narrative essay or story writing.

 

Grades 5-6 cover the exact same tops, but at different difficulty levels. Grades 7-8 does the same thing. This allows the teacher to teach 2 grades at once. The supplementary lesson do not require teaching and are review of previously taught lessons. CGE was written first and foremost to be completely doable in a one room school house, and sacrifices whatever is necessary to accomplish that, as the primary goal.

 

The series is quite rigorous. Many average and remedial students would do better placed lower than grade level, and repeating certain lessons more than once, or redoing lessons from the previous year. I see no need to supplement this curriculum, but I prefer to repeat some lessons. I think there is huge value in being able to practice certain composition types.

 

Many of the students, with moms here, are gifted and precocious and will do great with the series as written, but I'm a slow and steady type teacher.

 

I appreciate the reduced # of lessons. I have a horrible time figuring out what to skip in longer books. I much prefer to redo lessons rather than skip lessons. And I think students thrive off of revisiting previous topics without having anything new added in.

 

Previously I had been overcomplicating the writing process. It has been a relief to just do the CGE compositions and not tweak or add or try to perfect the lessons. I was swallowed up in a sea of graphic organizers and worksheets and instructions. The lessons were so overcomplicated, that the important parts were invisible under the details. And the lessons were not presented with clear instructions meant to be handwritten, and in drafts.

 

Right now I am experimenting with having my adult remedial students work slowly through a low level workbook and assigning extra composition lessons pulled from different levels as needed. So far that is working. And I am working ahead in the series myself, trying to get a strong familiarity with it.

 

I'm finding it necessary to set some boundaries with my students, and carve out a general curriculum that I teach with. Then to tweak it for them, but not let them set the center that I revolve around. It was exhausting trying to revolve around several students at once. CGE has allowed me to ground myself. It's good enough for everyone as long as I tweak it. Maybe not the BEST for certain students, but good enough for everyone.

 

Some of the ESL students do need some concentrated compare/contrast writing for a test they take, but I find most of them are in too much of a rush to take the test without covering the basics first, and I'm putting my foot down about rushing into that type of lesson. Those students are going to have to earn the compare/contrast lessons, after they have covered general reading and writing to my satisfaction. Or go elsewhere.

 

Thank you Hunter!! That really helps knowing that we can start with grade 4. I am going to try and look for this at the convention next week. I will look at the writing portion and see what we may need to cover before beginning. We have a whole year, so I think we'll have time. :lol: Thanks again.

[MrsMe]

I will be using this program this fall. I purchased 5/6, but I just ordered 4 just to get up to par with some aspects we may have missed. So the jury is out, but I love the type of work given.

 

I like Hunter's idea that she also bought 7/8. It is SO important to do this and see where curriculum is going and because of the price, CGE allows you to do this. Good move! I think a lot of people drop something because we can't see the bigger picture. I know I have in the past.

[atozmom]

I am going to be mentioning CGE to a friend today who's son will be entering 8th grade next year. He really hasn't had a lot of grammar exposure. Where would you recommend he start, in the grade 4 book?

[Hunter]

I am going to be mentioning CGE to a friend today who's son will be entering 8th grade next year. He really hasn't had a lot of grammar exposure. Where would you recommend he start, in the grade 4 book?

 

Yes, I think so. If she is wanting to cover grammar more than composition, she might also want to buy the supplementary lessons, but I have not seen them. She should also take a look at Rod and Staff's supplementary lessons. I know people who have used JUST the R&S supplements with a handbook, and no textbook. That way if he needs more review than the book provides she will have everything handy. The explanations in 4 are fine for an 8th grader to start with, I think. The instruction are good.

 

All rules through grade 6 are highlighted in gray and can be used as copywork, or used for a student created English notebook as suggested by the Bluedorns.

 

For an older quick student that just has had no instruction, it might be possible to compact grades 5-6, and grades 7-8, into one year each. So some students might be able to to do 4, 6, 8 in 3 years. I have not attempted this plan with any students yet, but cannot see why it can't be done.

[Hunter]

I will be using this program this fall. I purchased 5/6, but I just ordered 4 just to get up to par with some aspects we may have missed. So the jury is out, but I love the type of work given.

 

I like Hunter's idea that she also bought 7/8. It is SO important to do this and see where curriculum is going and because of the price, CGE allows you to do this. Good move! I think a lot of people drop something because we can't see the bigger picture. I know I have in the past.

 

To fully appreciate grade 5, I needed to be able to see grades 4 and 7. There is a method, to what looks choppy and incomplete. The Amish one room schoolhouse just has no time and money to use workbooks that won't be completed, each year. The end result is far less choppy, than if a teenaged teacher had to pick and choose.

 

Also I have heard that most of the time the schools are all doing exactly the same lessons at the same time, so students who move, pick up exactly where they left off at their old school.

[lorisuewho]

What's the difference between Climbing to Good English and Building Christian English? We use BCE and we love it. It is very, very thorough. We sort of breezed through the third grade book in our first year of school here, and completed half of the fourth grade book.

 

Can you tell me more about this Clay bookstore? I'm about 30 minutes from Ephrata.

 

I think Building Christian English is the Rod and Staff series? Not sure.

 

CGE is written for the Amish schools and is by Schoolaid. It is a workbook approach instead of textbook.

 

Clay Bookstore appears to be very small from the outside, but on the inside it is pretty big. It is Mennonite-run. They have Christian book materials, plus homeschooling materials. They carry Climbing to Good English, Pentime, Rod & Staff, Studytime math materials, and the Pathway materials. They also have a very large used curriculum sale area, but it is kind of disorganized. The prices are great though. If you are only 30 minutes out, it is definitely worth the drive if you want to see the materials in person. The staff is very helpful.

[Hunter]

I think Building Christian English is the Rod and Staff series? Not sure.

 

CGE is written for the Amish schools and is by Schoolaid. It is a workbook approach instead of textbook.

 

Clay Bookstore appears to be very small from the outside, but on the inside it is pretty big. It is Mennonite-run. They have Christian book materials, plus homeschooling materials. They carry Climbing to Good English, Pentime, Rod & Staff, Studytime math materials, and the Pathway materials. They also have a very large used curriculum sale area, but it is kind of disorganized. The prices are great though. If you are only 30 minutes out, it is definitely worth the drive if you want to see the materials in person. The staff is very helpful.

 

Is Pentime a handwriting curriculum?

[Hunter]

Never mind, I found it at Rainbow.

[atozmom]

Hmmmm, looking at the content of grade 3, there is some really good stuff there. Would it be difficult to skip over the respelling exercises in this level and not wind up confused?

[abrightmom]

:bigear: intently. I've always liked CGE except for the font. Blech. But, I have one who does much better with workbooks..... It is so inexpensive that if I end up doing a Rainbow Resource or R&S order I'm going to pick up a few levels.

[ChicoryChick]

We just started to use CTGE and so far I am happy with it. I was going to start my graduating 3rd grader with book 4, but since he is a struggling reader I decided to start him with book 3 which does a review of phonics and dictionary pronunciations at the beginning which I think is working much better for him. Like pp, I am not crazy about the font and the layout seems crowded but do like the thoroughness of the program. I do prefer the layout of R&S series, but it was difficult to juggle teachin 4 different grammar levels simultaneously. CTGE is something they can do a lot more independently.

[Hunter]

Hmmmm, looking at the content of grade 3, there is some really good stuff there. Would it be difficult to skip over the respelling exercises in this level and not wind up confused?

 

It is quite easy to just skip the respelling exercises in grade 3 CGE. The respellings are also included in Grade 3 Pathway "Learning Through Sounds", and can also be skipped There are important topics covered in grade 3 that are not repeated in grade 4.

 

I personally find being able to read a dictionary to be an important skill for MY students, and they are intrigued with the idea, so I start my students with grade 2, and I also purchased the flash cards. Many of us here have a retired science professor friend who is disdainful of learning to read dictionary pronunciations and I think she told us it was too hard, and my students know she can't do it, so....it's something MY students are particularly intrigued with. They are much more interested in dictionary respellings than marking spelling words.

 

For me, having spent a lot of time secluded due to domestic abuse, my reading and writing vocabulary is years (maybe decades) ahead of my spoken vocabulary. It's hard for me to speak because I have visuals of words I cannot speak, and it causes me to pause a lot while speaking. And then that is added to the speech problems I have due to the brain damage from my seizures. Technology is making audio books and computer dictionaries available to all, but...it's still important to me to remediate my pronunciations with a cheap hardcopy book. It's grounding. Somehow it makes me feel safer to have this skill, and familiarity with a dictionary.

 

I have one student who has made a certain amount of progress with becoming familiar with the Large Print Concise Merriam-Webster, and every time I say, "look it up" instead of giving her the answer, she gets the HUGEST smile, because she knows she CAN.

 

I just wish grade 2 did not feature a cat. Sigh! I'm not sure what the deal is here in the city, but cat phobias are fairly common. McGuffey starts with that whole cat and rat thing, and that is NOT a cute little cartoon. Sigh! A cat catching a rat is considered a traumatic event, not an everyday occurrence here, and McGuffey lesson 1 is...well...not the way to start spelling for seriously cat phobic students.

 

At some point I may have to write my own version of grade 2 CGE, and the first few lessons of McGuffey's, because way too much time has been wasted talking about cats and crazy white people authors who would put such things in children's textbooks. I am SO tired of talking about cats!!!!! SO tired!

[lorisuewho]

So far, I am really loving CGE with my son. It is a much better fit for us than CLE Language Arts was. I'm trying to do some of the "respelling" lessons, but some we are definitely skipping. After we get into the groove of the LOE markings, I think I will have a better idea of what I want to do and what I want to skip. I love the focus on writing sentences, sequencing, and answering questions in full sentences. The pages are a bit crowded, but I think it is efficient use of space and our time. In CLE I felt like I was crossing too much out, trying to figure out what was really important. In all fairness, we only used CLE for the first grade, so I don't know if it got better in the upper levels.

 

I also followed Hunter's lead and went ahead and got some copies of the upper level teacher manuals used so I could see where the program was going. I'm excited!

Edited May 16, 2012 by lorisuewho

[atozmom]

It is quite easy to just skip the respelling exercises in grade 3 CGE. The respellings are also included in Grade 3 Pathway "Learning Through Sounds", and can also be skipped There are important topics covered in grade 3 that are not repeated in grade 4.

 

I personally find being able to read a dictionary to be an important skill for MY students, and they are intrigued with the idea, so I start my students with grade 2, and I also purchased the flash cards. Many of us here have a retired science professor friend who is disdainful of learning to read dictionary pronunciations and I think she told us it was too hard, and my students know she can't do it, so....it's something MY students are particularly intrigued with. They are much more interested in dictionary respellings than marking spelling words.

 

For me, having spent a lot of time secluded due to domestic abuse, my reading and writing vocabulary is years (maybe decades) ahead of my spoken vocabulary. It's hard for me to speak because I have visuals of words I cannot speak, and it causes me to pause a lot while speaking. And then that is added to the speech problems I have due to the brain damage from my seizures. Technology is making audio books and computer dictionaries available to all, but...it's still important to me to remediate my pronunciations with a cheap hardcopy book. It's grounding. Somehow it makes me feel safer to have this skill, and familiarity with a dictionary.

 

I have one student who has made a certain amount of progress with becoming familiar with the Large Print Concise Merriam-Webster, and every time I say, "look it up" instead of giving her the answer, she gets the HUGEST smile, because she knows she CAN.

 

I just wish grade 2 did not feature a cat. Sigh! I'm not sure what the deal is here in the city, but cat phobias are fairly common. McGuffey starts with that whole cat and rat thing, and that is NOT a cute little cartoon. Sigh! A cat catching a rat is considered a traumatic event, not an everyday occurrence here, and McGuffey lesson 1 is...well...not the way to start spelling for seriously cat phobic students.

 

At some point I may have to write my own version of grade 2 CGE, and the first few lessons of McGuffey's, because way too much time has been wasted talking about cats and crazy white people authors who would put such things in children's textbooks. I am SO tired of talking about cats!!!!! SO tired!

 

Thank you once again Hunter! And can I just say that you are inspiring. :001_smile:

[atozmom]

So far, I am really loving CGE with my son. It is a much better fit for us than CLE Language Arts was. I'm trying to do some of the "respelling" lessons, but some we are definitely skipping. After we get into the groove of the LOE markings, I think I will have a better idea of what I want to do and what I want to skip. I love the focus on writing sentences, sequencing, and answering questions in full sentences. The pages are a bit crowded, but I think it is efficient use of space and our time. In CLE I felt like I was crossing too much out, trying to figure out what was really important. In all fairness, we only used CLE for the first grade, so I don't know if it got better in the upper levels.

 

I also followed Hunter's lead and went ahead and got some copies of the upper level teacher manuals used so I could see where the program was going. I'm excited!

 

I love CLE math, but CLE LA bombed here. (we only tried lower levels as well) The only part that worries me a bit about CGE is the crowded pages. Sometimes that is visually distracting for ds. However I am going to take a look at them at the convention. They are definitely cheap enough that if it doesn't work, no big deal.

[Hunter]

I don't know if I would use the respelling exercises with a 2nd grader, especially if I was teaching LOE/Spalding/Riggs/PR/SWR at the same time.

 

I understand that many here feel that they have no other option than the typical prep school high school to selective 4 year college route, but...I'm just not convinced that is the BEST route for most teens. Never mind that many parents just don't have the resources to accomplish it. I COMPLETELY understand the rush to complete grade 2 at Grade 2, or maybe even years before. BTDT!

 

I personally like to use CGE a little behind grade level. And I'm only planning on finishing grade 5 with some of my students, as a goal. I'd rather see them master the basics than push through the higher levels. By finishing grade 5 CGE and book 4 of McGuffey's they will be able to compose beautifully handwritten letters, address the enveloped the way the post office requests that we do, write a basic expository report, be able to USE reference materials, spell, read aloud with skill, and read and write poetry.

 

For students that PROVE they are motivated enough to start preparing for junior college, I think I will attempt to compact the upper books, and add in persuasive essays and reports, and a short story course that includes the literary elements. ESL students need to cover compare and contrast.

 

Starting with my boys and moving on to my tutoring students, I'm done being the one to make their dreams come true, when they are not REALLY willing to put in the WORK involved. Some of my ladies have mania, and they are just not capable ALL the time of CONSISTENTLY working towards their ever changing goals. They act just like teenagers. It's the same story playing out again for me. I learned with teens and now with my tutoring students, a year of staying employed a few hours a week is the best prep ever for college. And teachers are PEOPLE, not RESOURCES!

 

My plan now is FOUNDATIONAL studies until the student has been in the work force for awhile. Let their co-workers and bosses do the dirty work. Can you tell I've been seriously dealing with a student, the past couple days, as well as spending hours a day looking through curricula to better understand what they cover? Sigh!

 

The further along we work through curricula, the more theoretical and less practical the topics become. The content becomes less and less useful in daily life. I need a GOOD reason to start discarding the applicable for the rigorous and the fancy, and I need cues from the student that this will be TRULY helpful to them, and that they are capable of USING the topics for a realistic goal.

 

I sometimes feel like I'm standing at the side of the road and think I see a naked Emperor. I really do NOT know if he is wearing any clothes. I just don't.

 

Yes, we NEED a few doctors and other professions so badly that it doesn't matter if they can handwrite a birthday card to their mom, and society needs to push ahead at least some students towards this. But I wonder...is that the best for the person who became the doctor? Yes, for SOME of them. They LOVE their jobs and some of them love having an excuse NOT to send mom a birthday card or have their secretary do it.

 

But does this trickle down to ALL high school students should abandon applicable lessons for non applicable ones? There is such disdain for the expository report and such a rush to produce a persuasive report. Climbing Parnassus says students need to copy, rather than have opinions, for quite awhile. The OLD classical education put arguing a law as the PINNACLE and only for the MINORITY, but did NOT trickle that down into FOUNDATIONAL education for the MASSES.

 

Most students did the grammar years and stopped there. When we started adding high school for ALL, we didn't consider if the education written for the MINORITY, was truly the best DEFAULT for the MASSES.

 

I'm ranting. I'm going to stop writing. I adore respelling exercises. I'm just not so sure about MASTERING them for AVERAGE 7 and unders. I think Lori's idea of skipping some bits might be the best idea. And then maybe revisiting them, over the years, instead of being done with them at grade 3.

 

atozmom, thanks!

Edited May 16, 2012 by Hunter

[MrsMe]

I understand that many here feel that they have no other option than the typical prep school high school to selective 4 year college route, but...I'm just not convinced that is the BEST route for most teens. Never mind that many parents just don't have the resources to accomplish it. I COMPLETELY understand the rush to complete grade 2 at Grade 2, or maybe even years before. BTDT!

 

I personally like to use CGE a little behind grade level. And I'm only planning on finishing grade 5 with some of my students, as a goal. I'd rather see them master the basics than push through the higher levels. By finishing grade 5 CGE and book 4 of McGuffey's they will be able to compose beautifully handwritten letters, address the enveloped the way the post office requests that we do, write a basic expository report, be able to USE reference materials, spell, read aloud with skill, and read and write poetry.

 

For students that PROVE they are motivated enough to start preparing for junior college, I think I will attempt to compact the upper books, and add in persuasive essays and reports, and a short story course that includes the literary elements. ESL students need to cover compare and contrast.

 

Starting with my boys and moving on to my tutoring students, I'm done being the one to make their dreams come true, when they are not REALLY willing to put in the WORK involved. Some of my ladies have mania, and they are just not capable ALL the time of CONSISTENTLY working towards their ever changing goals. They act just like teenagers. It's the same story playing out again for me. I learned with teens and now with my tutoring students, a year of staying employed a few hours a week is the best prep ever for college. And teachers are PEOPLE, not RESOURCES!

 

My plan now is FOUNDATIONAL studies until the student has been in the work force for awhile. Let their co-workers and bosses do the dirty work. Can you tell I've been seriously dealing with a student, the past couple days, as well as spending hours a day looking through curricula to better understand what they cover? Sigh!

 

The further along we work through curricula, the more theoretical and less practical the topics become. The content becomes less and less useful in daily life. I need a GOOD reason to start discarding the applicable for the rigorous and the fancy, and I need cues from the student that this will be TRULY helpful to them, and that they are capable of USING the topics for a realistic goal.

 

I sometimes feel like I'm standing at the side of the road and think I see a naked Emperor. I really do NOT know if he is wearing any clothes. I just don't.

 

Yes, we NEED a few doctors and other professions so badly that it doesn't matter if they can handwrite a birthday card to their mom, and society needs to push ahead at least some students towards this. But I wonder...is that the best for the person who became the doctor? Yes, for SOME of them. They LOVE their jobs and some of them love having an excuse NOT to send mom a birthday card or have their secretary do it.

 

But does this trickle down to ALL high school students should abandon applicable lessons for non applicable ones? There is such disdain for the expository report and such a rush to produce a persuasive report. Climbing Parnassus says students need to copy, rather than have opinions, for quite awhile. The OLD classical education put arguing a law as the PINNACLE and only for the MINORITY, but did NOT trickle that down into FOUNDATIONAL education for the MASSES.

 

Most students did the grammar years and stopped there. When we started adding high school for ALL, we didn't consider if the education written for the MINORITY, was truly the best DEFAULT for the MASSES.

 

!

 

I like your rants. Don't stop. You have interesting posts and I agree! No one has basics down as they don't seem to teach them anymore, but kids can sure argue and usually not coherently with real information opposed to feelings. That's because ps teaches from elementary on up their opinions. Basics are lost and considered a waste of time. Pathetic to what it's all become.

[lorisuewho]

I like your rants. Don't stop. You have interesting posts and I agree!

 

:iagree: I completely agree. I always enjoy your posts and your viewpoints as a tutor, not just homeschooler. Your posts have given me food for thought, and are what really reaffirmed to me that my Amish in the elementary years/LCC education idea is not as crazy as it looks or sounds!

[abrightmom]

:iagree: as well Hunter. I like your rants.... a lot. I want to hear how you would use McGuffeys and CGE and perhaps Spalding together. And, where to begin when jumping in mid stream with a few kids.

 

Lorisuewho,

 

Dying to hear more about your LCC Amish plan. Not the point of this thread but so intriguing to me. :001_smile: PM is okay if you don't mind sharing your thoughts and plans. I'd also love to hear how you would jump in with kids my age (rising 4th, 2nd, K/1st, age 3). I love VP, MP, Amish curricula, etc. LCC was a great read and I took a lot away from that but didn't act on anything. Might pull it out today.

 

ETA: How are you ladies using McGuffeys? I have the set rec in Well Trained Mind but haven't used them. What "curriculum" are you referring to?

[MrsMe]

:iagree: as well Hunter. I like your rants.... a lot. I want to hear how you would use McGuffeys and CGE and perhaps Spalding together. And, where to begin when jumping in mid stream with a few kids.

 

Lorisuewho,

 

Dying to hear more about your LCC Amish plan. Not the point of this thread but so intriguing to me. :001_smile: PM is okay if you don't mind sharing your thoughts and plans. I'd also love to hear how you would jump in with kids my age (rising 4th, 2nd, K/1st, age 3). I love VP, MP, Amish curricula, etc. LCC was a great read and I took a lot away from that but didn't act on anything. Might pull it out today.

 

ETA: How are you ladies using McGuffeys? I have the set rec in Well Trained Mind but haven't used them. What "curriculum" are you referring to?

 

ACK! LCC?????? I should know this acronym. Refresh me. :tongue_smilie:

[abrightmom]

ACK! LCC?????? I should know this acronym. Refresh me. :tongue_smilie:

 

Latin Centered Curriculum :001_smile: I sold my copy. Forgot about that. :glare:

[lorisuewho]

Lorisuewho,

 

Dying to hear more about your LCC Amish plan. Not the point of this thread but so intriguing to me. :001_smile: PM is okay if you don't mind sharing your thoughts and plans. I'd also love to hear how you would jump in with kids my age (rising 4th, 2nd, K/1st, age 3). I love VP, MP, Amish curricula, etc. LCC was a great read and I took a lot away from that but didn't act on anything. Might pull it out today.

 

ETA: How are you ladies using McGuffeys? I have the set rec in Well Trained Mind but haven't used them. What "curriculum" are you referring to?

 

I will be happy to PM you. I actually finally finished my plans for next year so I can email you the outline if you are interested in something like that. I too have my eye on VP, but probably just for history in the future. I'm mainly using MP and various stuff from the Amish, a little bit from HUFI, and Logic of English.

 

The curriculum that Hunter and I are referring to is Landmark Freedom Baptist Literature curriculum. They are using the McGuffey for the main source of literature/reading for grades 1-6. I saw it in person at convention, and I was thrilled with what I saw. I ordered the 2nd grade and can't wait for it to arrive so I can really pour over it and see if it will work for us. There appeared to be vocabulary work, poetry, and great extentions to the information already in the McGuffey. I will know more after my stuff arrives; it should be here by Friday they said.

 

There is also a CD that can be purchased from dollar homeschool that is a PDF of all the McGuffeys.

[Hunter]

LCC and the Amish and vintage curricula have so much more in common, than people realize. People focus so much on vintage and Plain curricula stopping at Grade 8, that they erroneously believe them to be easier, and that is just not so. And people believe classical to mean all sorts of things that OLD school classical doesn't mean.

 

I'm finding that the 3 work together and balance each other nicely.

 

I was totally LCC with my youngest son in his mid teen years, but a radical version that wasn't covered by the book with that name. I used Climbing Parnassus and Quintilian as my guides and I read The Devil Knows Latin, but don't remember anything covered in it, that wasn't covered in CP.

 

I'm glad you all aren't annoyed with my rants :-) I am a "write to learn" person, and when I write, I figure things out. I try not to abuse this technique though, as that isn't fair to people.

 

Lori, I was very interested to learn you are a reading specialist. As I'm playing around with the cursive first idea, I think I might have noticed something that might change my opinions on it.

 

I've noticed that some people are not able to think ahead. So it's torture for them to have to think ahead to the next letters, to figure out which connector to use when finishing the current letter. BUT...I've noticed that these same people struggle in general with making connections in EVERYTHING. I'm wondering if using the controlled vocabularies in McGuffey to present the words one by one, marking them (with whatever method) and teaching the word as cursive copywork, will be just as effective as using printing. Because I don't think these students are applying anything previously learned, to new words that were never TAUGHT to them. I don't think they are capable of USING the advantage I thought I was giving to them, by relieving them of connectors.

 

I'm not sure if you understand what I mean, but it's an interesting thought to dwell on while washing dishes, I found :-)

 

abrightmom, Landmark Freedom Baptist sells language arts curriculum that used McGuffey's as it's core. I have mess spread all over my living room floor and I'll have to get back to your questions, because I'm trying out new stuff, but it appears that McGuffey is the glue that I've been missing. It's the controlled word list that has caught my eye.

 

I don't own a couch or any real living room furniture because I spend all my money on books and art supplies. Today I was thinking this all fits together nicely. If I could afford the couch and coffee table, where would I spread out all my books?? :lol:

[Hunter]

alilac, I have the 1st edition LCC download, but have never read version 2 and don't intend to, unless I can do it for free. Buy Climbing Parnassus, instead, and start with part 2, NOT part 1.

[lorisuewho]

Lori, I was very interested to learn you are a reading specialist. As I'm playing around with the cursive first idea, I think I might have noticed something that might change my opinions on it.

 

I've noticed that some people are not able to think ahead. So it's torture for them to have to think ahead to the next letters, to figure out which connector to use when finishing the current letter. BUT...I've noticed that these same people struggle in general with making connections in EVERYTHING. I'm wondering if using the controlled vocabularies in McGuffey to present the words one by one, marking them (with whatever method) and teaching the word as cursive copywork, will be just as effective as using printing. Because I don't think these students are applying anything previously learned, to new words that were never TAUGHT to them. I don't think they are capable of USING the advantage I thought I was giving to them, by relieving them of connectors.

 

I'm not sure if you understand what I mean, but it's an interesting thought to dwell on while washing dishes, I found :-)

 

abrightmom, Landmark Freedom Baptist sells language arts curriculum that used McGuffey's as it's core. I have mess spread all over my living room floor and I'll have to get back to your questions, because I'm trying out new stuff, but it appears that McGuffey is the glue that I've been missing. It's the controlled word list that has caught my eye.

 

I don't own a couch or any real living room furniture because I spend all my money on books and art supplies. Today I was thinking this all fits together nicely. If I could afford the couch and coffee table, where would I spread out all my books?? :lol:

 

I try not to mention my background here since there seems to be a general disrespect for teachers here ;), but yes, I have a decade in the schools working with all sorts of grade levels, learners, and my last year just with first graders as a reading specialist.

 

I will have to think over your cursive thoughts more. Personally, I have always been a traditional manuscript first person. It just makes sense to me for a child not to have to hold in their head how to connect and form letters, along with coming up with the actual phonograms that need to be written down. Also with cursive there is little time to stop and think. If I wanted to write a longer word with my son, I would have him think about it one syllable at a time. In cursive, the student can't take that break because the connector would be broken.

 

I'll have to give this more thought. I'm always open to new ideas in education (and old ideas! :lol:)

[MrsMe]

.

 

The curriculum that Hunter and I are referring to is Landmark Freedom Baptist Literature curriculum. They are using the McGuffey for the main source of literature/reading for grades 1-6. I saw it in person at convention, and I was thrilled with what I saw. I ordered the 2nd grade and can't wait for it to arrive so I can really pour over it and see if it will work for us. There appeared to be vocabulary work, poetry, and great extentions to the information already in the McGuffey. I will know more after my stuff arrives; it should be here by Friday they said.

.

 

 

Is there a sample for this? I couldn't find one.

[Hunter]

I try not to mention my background here since there seems to be a general disrespect for teachers here ;), but yes, I have a decade in the schools working with all sorts of grade levels, learners, and my last year just with first graders as a reading specialist.

 

I will have to think over your cursive thoughts more. Personally, I have always been a traditional manuscript first person. It just makes sense to me for a child not to have to hold in their head how to connect and form letters, along with coming up with the actual phonograms that need to be written down. Also with cursive there is little time to stop and think. If I wanted to write a longer word with my son, I would have him think about it one syllable at a time. In cursive, the student can't take that break because the connector would be broken.

 

I'll have to give this more thought. I'm always open to new ideas in education (and old ideas! :lol:)

 

Yeah, it's that time to think between writing letters, and not having to pre-think. BUT...what I'm looking at now, is that with the absence of copywork of a controlled word list, is that when manuscript becomes more useful, or just appears to be more useful? Is the time to think actually accomplishing anything significant? Is it just giving me time to PROMPT, and how useful is that in the long run? I'm rambling, not expecting you or anyone else to answer.

 

Sometimes when we change one thing, then it sets off a domino effect of needing to change a host of other things.

 

Sometimes we change one thing and all of a sudden lots of good stuff starts happening and we don't even know why. So we can't even maximize on it, and sometimes the harder we try, the farther away we get from the good part.

 

Ecclesiastes talks about chasing the wind, and there being no end of books. Solomon knew what he was talking about.

 

Adam had his weeds to contend with. We have lousy phonics curricula to contend with.

[Hunter]

Is there a sample for this? I couldn't find one.

 

A few samples here and here.

 

Be careful. Some of the samples at CBD are the wrong samples and it is very misleading. I think maybe the 5th is wrong, but I forget.

 

I'm anxiously waiting for Lori's curriculum to arrive too! I can't wait to hear.

[abrightmom]

 

The curriculum that Hunter and I are referring to is Landmark Freedom Baptist Literature curriculum. They are using the McGuffey for the main source of literature/reading for grades 1-6.

 

Samples of this anywhere? I can't find them on the website but I am most definitely intrigued.....

 

ETA: Just saw alilac's post and Hunter's response. BE STILL my beating heart. I pulled out my Fourth Reader and used it with the sample. Lovely. Just lovely. I am really excited about this.

 

R&S, CGE, McGuffey's and Spalding (LOE)..... :lol: Somehow this can all meld into the Perfect LA curriculum, yes? Well, there MUST be some WTM in there too.

Edited May 17, 2012 by abrightmom

[atozmom]

A few samples here and here.

 

Be careful. Some of the samples at CBD are the wrong samples and it is very misleading. I think maybe the 5th is wrong, but I forget.

 

I'm anxiously waiting for Lori's curriculum to arrive too! I can't wait to hear.

 

Now this looks intriguing. Landmark will be at the convention next week as well. :D Me thinks my list of things to look at has just grown considerably over the last few days. :lol: All kidding aside, I do like the looks of the samples. I am anxious to see it in person.

[atozmom]

 

I don't own a couch or any real living room furniture because I spend all my money on books and art supplies. Today I was thinking this all fits together nicely. If I could afford the couch and coffee table, where would I spread out all my books?? :lol:

 

Love it.

[abrightmom]

After looking at the samples of the Landmark Baptist literature curriculum I am wondering how that fits in with CGE/R&S and LOE. What do you ladies plan to do? Hmmmmm. I have a lot to ponder because I like parts of all of these curricula and would love to smush it all together into a cohesive whole for my family.

 

LOE teaches phonics (reading AND spelling) and uses the markings/analysis that I like. I also like how she demystifies the "exceptions". I like learning phonograms. That works VERY well for my kids AND for me as a teacher. I have tried doing WITHOUT them with my 3rd child and it's not good. I LOVE the Spalding handwriting but I don't have a resource with which to teach it other than WRTR 5th ed. I think Hunter prefers the 6th (?) for the penmanship instruction. I may have to hunt that down. I just LOVE it. I've really NOT taught my daughter well because I've not had the resources I want to use with her. That HAS to change.

 

CGE is for English and would replace R&S English. I like R&S for the most part. I really like the composition lessons. I'm not SURE that I see a difference in content although I have at least ONE child who would do BETTER with the workbook approach and I'm going to try CGE with him. It's cheap enough that if I can swing it I would like to get a few levels to see how it flows. I am intrigued by the composition skills taught in CGE and I have NO clue what the re-spelling issue is. Curious though.

 

McGuffey's. Hmmmm. What piece of the puzzle is this? I'm not sure. There is vocabulary, reading, comprehension, composition. How does this fit so that we're not in overkill? I'm not sure without having all of these materials here for my perusal. The samples whet my appetite but don't REALLY enable me to put the puzzle together.

[MrsMe]

A few samples here and here.

 

Be careful. Some of the samples at CBD are the wrong samples and it is very misleading. I think maybe the 5th is wrong, but I forget.

 

I'm anxiously waiting for Lori's curriculum to arrive too! I can't wait to hear.

 

 

Thanks! DD isn't liking Pathway Readers 5th (way too easy) and 6th may be iffy. I'll check this one.

[lorisuewho]

Samples of this anywhere? I can't find them on the website but I am most definitely intrigued.....

 

ETA: Just saw alilac's post and Hunter's response. BE STILL my beating heart. I pulled out my Fourth Reader and used it with the sample. Lovely. Just lovely. I am really excited about this.

 

R&S, CGE, McGuffey's and Spalding (LOE)..... :lol: Somehow this can all meld into the Perfect LA curriculum, yes? Well, there MUST be some WTM in there too.

 

Now this looks intriguing. Landmark will be at the convention next week as well. :D Me thinks my list of things to look at has just grown considerably over the last few days. :lol: All kidding aside, I do like the looks of the samples. I am anxious to see it in person.

 

Thanks! DD isn't liking Pathway Readers 5th (way too easy) and 6th may be iffy. I'll check this one.

 

I had not seen any samples ahead of time. Hunter mentioned it to me briefly and I read that message moments before I was headed out the door to go to convention. I happened upon their booth. I took a very long look through the second grade literature and I kept thinking, "This is great! This could really be awesome! The passages they are using are excellent!" So, I thanked the vendor for her time, and I walked away since that was not budgeted or in my plans for next year. Two hours later, I was back again. I looked again, and handed over the cash.

 

I cannot wait for this to get here so I can see if it is truly good or not. In the meantime I went looking for samples. The samples were sparce and they didn't look nearly as good to me as the real thing. Then I became confused and thought did I just waste $38?

 

I will update when I get it.

[stripe]

It looks like Landmark uses both McGuffey and Eulalie Osgood Grover/ Frances E. Chutter 's Art-Literature Readers?

[Hunter]

I ordered Landmark and then canceled, for the exact reason that abrightmom mentioned. How do I smoosh it all? I am not at all done looking though. I haven't seen enough to know what it's like. I have the feeling that grade 4 will be purchased when CBD gets it back in stock next month. I would LOVE to see grade 1.

 

CGE is a definite here. I have never seen the new or the lower levels of R&S English, so can't compare. R&S could be better for all I know :-0 But CGE is working splendidly, so I'm sticking with it.

 

McGuffey Eclectic version has a controlled word list. I have been lead to believe--but am not certain--that every word used in the readings is introduced and explicitly taught. My thought is to use the word list as my guide in teaching the SWR (or whatever phonics I settle on) The McGuffey word list is wider than SWR/Spalding/Riggs/etc. For example, "cat" is in SWR but not rat, so I might be biting off more than I can chew in trying to do this. I want to see what Landmark adds to the McGuffey's but not only might it be too much, but it might conflict with the other things I am using. Already I have a bit of conflict between CGE respellings and SWR/Spalding. Less with Riggs, but...I think Riggs might be on its way out, and it's a pain to order, never mind expensive for me to complete my set.

 

I believe that McGuffey's is going to be the first time I embrace copywork and dictation. Also it will provide the sentences for the Spalding/SWR work. Spalding has no sentences and SWR sentences are...well...what they are.

 

I adore Spalding handwriting but am having to at least temporarily drop it with the students I currently have. Teaching it is too one on one, and they desire more autonomy. And I have to admit, using the Cursive First font with copied and pasted McGuffey text is NICE, rather than having to sit and teach the student as they copy from the book itself. In the long term I think this method is probably inferior, but these are not my children, and it's what they want, so FINE, at least for NOW.

 

abrightmom, I'm just experimenting here :-0 And as for TWTM. It recommends McGuffey's and R&S (which is similar to CGE). It doesn't recommend Spalding/SWR/Riggs/LOE, BUT...TWTM forum has wholeheartedly embraced the method as being TWTM anyway :-)

 

I'm just playing :lol: Believe it or not, a lot of this is PLAY and FUN to me.

[Hunter]

Now this looks intriguing. Landmark will be at the convention next week as well. :D Me thinks my list of things to look at has just grown considerably over the last few days. :lol: All kidding aside, I do like the looks of the samples. I am anxious to see it in person.

 

Oooh, please look at grade 1 phonics and the grade 4 book reports, especially. And how they manage to use the 5th reader for 5th grade, and the 6th reader for 6th grade :-0

[Hunter]

It looks like Landmark uses both McGuffey and Eulalie Osgood Grover/ Frances E. Chutter 's Art-Literature Readers?

 

I think the Art-Literature readers are only for grades 2 and 3, but am not sure.

[Hunter]

Thanks! DD isn't liking Pathway Readers 5th (way too easy) and 6th may be iffy. I'll check this one.

 

My main reason for dropping Pathway as my main reading/lit program was that I was getting too unbalanced in farm land. I'm having success with Study Time Math and CGE, and am Amished out after that.

 

It is the controlled word list that settled me on McGuffey.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Hunter

[lorisuewho]

Is it time to make yet another new thread on the Landmark McGuffey? :lol:

 

It looks like Landmark uses both McGuffey and Eulalie Osgood Grover/ Frances E. Chutter 's Art-Literature Readers?

 

I'm unfamilir with the Grover/Chutter Art-Literature Readers? What are they? I don't think anything other than the McGuffey is coming with my 2nd grade stuff, but I could always be wrong.

[Hunter]

I can't add any more tags to this thread.

 

There is already a short thread started. Maybe someone can add a tag to this thread, to link this thread to that one.

 

There is a tag called "Landmark's literature". Adding another tag to both called "Landmark's McGuffey's" sounds good too.

 

Lori, I think you are getting 2 readers. Check out the package at CBD. You can view the Art-Literature reader at google books.

 

I think grade 1 is the Primer and McGuffey's 1. I think grades 2 and 3, each have a McGuffey's and an Art-Literature. I think grade 4 is just McGuffey's and book reports. I have NO idea what grades 5 and 6 are like.

[stripe]

I'm unfamilir with the Grover/Chutter Art-Literature Readers? What are they? I don't think anything other than the McGuffey is coming with my 2nd grade stuff, but I could always be wrong.

The picture of the Landmark curriculum package from CB.com included both McGuffey and the Art-Literature Readers.

 

Here's the funny part.

 

With great delight I started downloading the Art-Literature Readers and (by one of the same authors) the Folk-Lore Reader. I was very irritated when I couldn't find reader #3 to download and spent a lot of time trying. Finally I realized ... I have it already on my computer, from last March. ?! I still can't find it online anywhere, but my copy says it's from Google Books.

 

Anyhow, some of the books include quite a lot of biographical information (in the text of the reader) plus poems or works by that author. There seems to be quite an enormous amount on RLStevenson but there are others. The selections of stories looks - at first glance - to be nice. I swear everything I've been looking at these days includes the tale of Clytie! Hilarious.

Edited May 17, 2012 by stripe

[Hunter]

The picture of the Landmark curriculum package from CB.com included both McGuffey and the Art-Literature Readers.

 

Here's the funny part.

 

With great delight I started downloading the Art-Literature Readers and (by one of the same authors) the Folk-Lore Reader. I was very irritated when I couldn't find reader #3 to download and spent a lot of time trying. Finally I realized ... I have it already on my computer, from last March. ?! I still can't find it online anywhere, but my copy says it's from Google Books.

 

Anyhow, some of the books include quite a lot of biographical information (in the text of the reader) plus poems or works by that author. There seems to be quite an enormous amount on RLStevenson but there are others. The selections of stories looks - at first glance - to be nice. I swear everything I've been looking at these days includes the tale of Clytie! Hilarious.

 

I thought they looked good too. But I made myself put them away and am trying to focus. They did look really good though!

[lorisuewho]

The picture of the Landmark curriculum package from CB.com included both McGuffey and the Art-Literature Readers.

 

Here's the funny part.

 

With great delight I started downloading the Art-Literature Readers and (by one of the same authors) the Folk-Lore Reader. I was very irritated when I couldn't find reader #3 to download and spent a lot of time trying. Finally I realized ... I have it already on my computer, from last March. ?! I still can't find it online anywhere, but my copy says it's from Google Books.

 

Anyhow, some of the books include quite a lot of biographical information (in the text of the reader) plus poems or works by that author. There seems to be quite an enormous amount on RLStevenson but there are others. The selections of stories looks - at first glance - to be nice. I swear everything I've been looking at these days includes the tale of Clytie! Hilarious.

 

I don't understand why the 2nd grade photo has the Art-Literature Reader but mine doesn't have it. The CB has a 1993 copyright date and that is what mine has also.

 

I need to download the Art-Literature readers and see if that IS the information that is now in the workbook.

 

And I know this is about Landmark and not CGE, but I don't know how to move a quote to a different thread! :001_huh:

[abrightmom]

I don't understand why the 2nd grade photo has the Art-Literature Reader but mine doesn't have it. The CB has a 1993 copyright date and that is what mine has also.

 

I need to download the Art-Literature readers and see if that IS the information that is now in the workbook.

 

And I know this is about Landmark and not CGE, but I don't know how to move a quote to a different thread! :001_huh:

 

Did you order from CBD? Hmmm. Seems like the Art-Lit readers are integral to the program.

 

I am so bummed that CBD has no samples from Grade 2.