Dysgraphia and using WWE?

[RobinF]

One of our boys was just evaluated and found to have a ld related to writing. They didn't dx dysgraphia b/c they don't test for that specifically in our ISD. They did find that he was well behind in writing and has short term memory deficits and deficits in long term retrieval and NO fine motor problems, so we are sure this is a processing disorder.

 

Currently we are using WWE and we enjoy it but I am not sure if we should continue to use it or if there is a program that is better suited for him. He is in 2nd grade and is in book 1. Copy work is painful for him.

 

We do school year round so we will continue to work during the summer and we are going to focus on doing writing 8 exercises but that is the only handwriting we are going to focus on at this time. In the fall we will begin working with HWT again.

 

Just looking for suggestions for a writing program or suggestions for using WWE?

[PeterPan]

Well when we did WWE, I don't recall that we did ANY of the physical writing. You're using the workbooks? Don't buy problems before you have them. If it's working, keep going. In the meantime, start working on that working memory, because that's what WWE is going to require. It might be more like WWE3 or 4 that he hits his wall, but it might be that by using it at the level 1 down the way you are and working really hard on working memory in the meantime, he'll grow and keep up.

 

As far as the handwriting, well for my dd it seemed like more efforts at handwriting (other programs, do more, try harder) didn't really help. OT for the hand pain helped. Now I've got Fix It Write and am following their suggestion to try an alternate grip. I'm not sure I'd do that with a 7 yo, but when the dc is 13, has LARGE hands (larger than mine, and I don't fit most women's gloves!) and the handwriting looks dramatically better with that alternate grip, yeah I'm pushing her there.

 

Things the OT had us doing for the hand pain? Well the eval itself was important so we knew *why* she was having the pain. Then it was stuff for core, shifting her weight differently (where she puts her weightbearing arm so the weight doesn't go on the writing wrist), stuff for finger strength, etc. It got her to where she could write without pain. At this point the neuropsych says her writing just doesn't have "automaticity", sigh. What I see is that with the regular grasp her writing is sort of jerky and labored. I switched her over to this grip where the pencil is between the 2nd and 3rd (actually she uses a pen, but whatever), and it literally looks more round and flowing and like it just comes more easily. I have NO clue why and it's not something the OT had said to do. Like I said, I read it in that book.

 

Yes, we did 8's. Yes, she had bilaterality issues, which is why we started the OT in the first place. She was older (12, this year), so it took a month or so but she got to where she could make beautiful letters with the 8's. You know we did them sort of hack. I had her make the letters ON the 8's she was writing. Aren't you actually supposed to do the 8, come down to another spot and make a letter, do another 8, come down and make another letter? I don't know. I'm just saying it was very challenging for her, and when she got to where what she was doing was easy, it didn't really change her actual everyday writing. She writes really, really fast these days, which *I* think is partly the go-bugs and partly that she's covering up for the difficulty of slowing it down and forming the letters well. I mean if your writing looked jerky when you slowed it down, would YOU slow down? Nope. Same thing happens in speech where there's praxis. The kid will speed up and talk really fast to cover what he can't slow down and form properly. Our OT had talked praxis with dd, which is why I caught it so quickly when it was mentioned as an option for ds. Then when the OT wrote up the final report she put nothing of it. Don't know what's up with that. The lady was SO hairbrained.

 

Man, did that take you in circles? We seem to be on the 20 year plan, lol. That's probably because it wasn't just one problem, if that makes sense. We're going into 8th now, so this is really my last ditch effort, hoping we can work smarter rather than just harder and get this figured out. I've had some glimmers of hope, especially with this new grip, because I finally saw the mature, teen girl writing I was HOPING to see out of her. Not sure if we'll ever get it to carry over to everyday. I keep trying. I have her scrapbooking through the states this summer, so she's writing every day. I'm hoping to work through Fix It Write with her and just gently work on things to see if we can get some carryover. This week the goal was just to get her to open up to that duck grasp. Next week, well I haven't studied up on that yet, sigh.

[RobinF]

Thanks, he doesn't seem to have pain with handwriting. He has spatial issues and problems remembering how to form letters.

 

I guess I am wondering if he will continue to benefit from WWE if he doesn't do the copy work. Or how should we do the copywork to make it benefit him.

 

We are getting a referral for OT from our ped so hopefully that will help also.

[peacefully]

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[FairProspects]

If your son is currently having letter formation issues, I really do believe that your time and energy might be better served by doing very low-key, fun handwriting activities that might help with automaticity, instead of focusing on copywork. For a kid with working memory issues, you really want to break down writing activities so that the cognitive load is under their threshold. Copywork, when it's used not simply as penmanship practice, but when a child is also supposed to attend to the grammar, style, and mechanics of the text, is actually an incredibly demanding task for a child with memory processing issues.

 

If you still want to do copywork, I'd make the passages quite short. Spend a lot of time discussing the passage and highlighting (literally, with a marker) features that are tricky. This could be spelling, unfamiliar punctuation, capitalization, whatever. Go over the vocabulary and context of the passage. And I would definitely write out the copywork passage by hand, so the child has a handwritten model to help him figure out letter formation, size, and spacing. And instead of stopping the child while he is writing (which WWE suggests to do), if he makes a mistake, give him the opportunity to find his error and fix it after you've pointed out all the wonderful things that he did correctly. Constantly interrupting a child with memory issues to point out that he's making mistakes is a really good way to totally derail him.

 

My personal opinion is that the narration exercises in WWE are also a poor fit for a child with working memory problems. If you'd like to continue to use that program, I'd suggest that you use the reading passages, but not the guided questions. Instead, allow the "narration" to be more like a conversation about the reading passage.

 

If you are looking for another program to use, you might take a look at the Wand products and the new Jot It Down guide at Brave Writer. All the above suggestions still apply, but I find the BW approach to be infinitely friendlier and more engaging than WWE.

 

 

:iagree:We were told by our neuropsychs that we could work on ds's automaticity issues, but in reality that his time would just be better spent learning to type and remediating spelling. We gave up on WWE for the reasons mentioned by Yllek.

 

Ds has done OT, VT, you name it, and he still has both spatial and motor coordination issues, none of which are likely to improve soon. I'm working on getting a scribe for all testing written into his 504 plan and getting him typing as fast as possible. We're forgoing copywork for now and heading more in a Bravewriter/writing assistive technology direction. We do use many of the techniques Yllek suggested but with spelling in AAS.

[peacefully]

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[fluffybunny]

Teach him to touch-type as soon as possible. Mavis Beacon has a good program, but you'll have to sit with him and guide his fingers. I started when my son was 8, and now he's nearly 12 he can touch-type 21 words per minute, but can barely write his name. While we're addressing that issue, he is able to do assignments and put his thoughts down by typing.

[FairProspects]

Yllek - What do you think about Word Qwerty? Do you like it as much as Read Write Type? I'm just wondering because ds is nearly done with Read Write Type (he loves it and flew through it) and I'm not sure where to go for typing after he finishes in a couple of weeks.

[laundrycrisis]

I am dealing with dysgraphia with our 9 yo and WWE has been fabulous. His problem is not letter formation or pain, it is written expression in general. Creating sentences is hard for him. WWE has helped a lot. He did level 1 as a 3rd grader and now is just 8 weeks into level 2. A lot of the copywork in WWE1 I had him type. He had already learned to type through Dancemat and Type to Learn - Agents of Information. He still has the option to type his copywork but now he chooses to write by hand. I have also had him practicing cursive. He will not choose to write in cursive, but it seems to have helped him relax his print which has made it easier going for him. The narration and dictation have been a fabulous help for him. The other thing that really helped was the Aesop series from RFP. He would read a very short story, look at an illustration, and write one sentence about the illustration.

[peacefully]

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[FairProspects]

That is FANTASTIC that he took to it so well! :hurray::hurray:

 

Ds went from RWT to Typing Instructor for Kids (not Typing Island as I wrote above :tongue_smilie:), so I don't really have any experience with Word Qwerty. I should probably check it out though, because ds is experiencing some hurdles with TIK, mostly because he really hates to be assessed for both accuracy and speed. I understand that these typing programs were designed for older kids in mind, but I really wish that they wouldn't place such an emphasis on miskeys. :glare: I may move on to an entirely paper-based typing program (First Strokes makes one and Diana Hanbury King, the author of Writing Skills, also has one). It all really depends on ds. I'm not loving the idea of a teacher-intensive typing program (practically everything we do is teacher-intensive!), but I don't want to focus on speed at all until he has accuracy, and I can't find a computer-based program that does that the way I want. Right now, he is familiar with the keyboard layout, uses the appropriate finger for most keys, and has about an 80% accuracy, but he still needs to visually hunt for certain letters. So, I'm still assessing what we need to do next.

 

Gee, that was no help, was it? :tongue_smilie:

 

Thanks!! Ds loves typing, it really does eliminate so many of the dysgraphia issues. I think we will go to Word Qwerty, ds's lowest scores on RWT are spelling (no surprise) and he would freak out if he were timed or tested for accuracy. It really is annoying that the publishers can't come up with a typing program that doesn't time younger kids.

[laundrycrisis]

Thanks!! Ds loves typing, it really does eliminate so many of the dysgraphia issues. I think we will go to Word Qwerty, ds's lowest scores on RWT are spelling (no surprise) and he would freak out if he were timed or tested for accuracy. It really is annoying that the publishers can't come up with a typing program that doesn't time younger kids.

 

 

Wordy Qwerty is a spelling program based on spelling rules. DS1 used it for spelling and it was great, but I don't think I would use it for typing practice. I also have Type to Learn - Agents of Information. It is pretty basic but can provide more practice and you can set the timing part yourself. I have also used the dictation sentences from Spelling Plus for typing practice.

[RobinF]

Thank you so much! I am looking at suggestions and think we may keep using WWE for the narrations (which he really enjoys and does well with) and skip the copy work until he can type on his own.

[RobinF]

Ok just had time to reread the responses and I am wondering what we need to do to work on his memory and retrieval.

 

I have read the article by Karen Hollis and am in the process of rereading and making notes. I was actually encouraged by what she wrote philosophy of education and timelines.

 

I appreciate all your responses and help. We have a journey with the child. He was dx'd as aspie at 5 with a bilateral processing disorder and now this new info. I am struggling to rethink my choices for the best curriculum with him and to retrain some of my thinking about the best way to help him achieve his goals.

[FairProspects]

I also have Type to Learn - Agents of Information. It is pretty basic but can provide more practice and you can set the timing part yourself. I have also used the dictation sentences from Spelling Plus for typing practice.

 

Where did you get Type to Learn? All I can find are school licenses for $800.

[laundrycrisis]

Where did you get Type to Learn? All I can find are school licenses for $800.

 

Homeschool Buyers Coop has it for $39.95.

[FairProspects]

Homeschool Buyers Coop has it for $39.95.

 

Thanks!