should I think of switching maths again??

[TinaSC]

My kids just took the 8th grade IOWA test and tehy came home complaining about how they "didnt remember how to do all that stuff." They have been doing Lial's Prealgebra this year, and doing fine. But the "stuff" on the IOWA was mostly percents, decimals, fractions, etc and they both told me they hardly remembered how to do that stuff anymore, and felt like they scored very low. Has anyone else had this problem? How do you keep that stuff sticking with them when they move into algebra and higher? Previous to Lials they used Math Mammoth. I have debated about trying Saxon, but always said I wouldn't :-) any thoughts?

 

Tina in SC

[Teachin'Mine]

The things you listed are what comprise the bulk of pre-algebra. What does Lial's do for pre-algebra? I highly recommend Saxon as review is built in, but I'm not sure how they could be forgetting this stuff as fractions are huge in pre-algebra and will be used in future math. Did they fully master their basic math?

[regentrude]

But the "stuff" on the IOWA was mostly percents, decimals, fractions, etc and they both told me they hardly remembered how to do that stuff anymore, and felt like they scored very low. ... How do you keep that stuff sticking with them when they move into algebra and higher?

 

I would see this as a problem of mastery. If a student has mastered the concepts of fractions (including decimals and percent), i.e. he has truly understood the concepts and not just memorized an algorithm, the applications in algebra will be sufficient to keep the skills sharp. Fractions are used in algebra all the time.

 

A student who "forgets" how to do fractions never really understood what he was doing, but got by with remembering the algorithms for the computations. I would go back and revisit the topics a some mastery based program. Sorry, I'm no help recommending a specific program because we use AoPS; I have, however, heard good things about Lial's series, so I am quite puzzled how a student can be "doing fine" in prealgebra and not understand fractions:confused:

Edited April 28, 2012 by regentrude

[Deniseibase]

I just looked at the table of contents for Lial's Prealgebra: An Integrated Approach and fractions, decimals, and percents each have an entire chapter in that book. Is the book your kids are using radically different? Or can you be more specific about what kinds of problems they were having trouble with?

 

I have never heard of any prealgebra program that didn't cover percents, fractions, and decimals pretty thoroughly. As for your question about how to keep stuff sticking with them when they get into higher math, it gets incorporated into the higher math problems, same as basic arithmetic does. You'll have questions like 3x+5=14 and you'll also have questions like 3/4x+5/6=11/8 and 1.4x+4.5=7.8 and so on.

 

Does that help?

[Deniseibase]

Oops, sorry, double post, my computer is acting up today :-(

Edited April 28, 2012 by Deniseibase
doublepost

[TinaSC]

well, I "thought" they had mastered these things. My son said he had a hard time remembering what to do with the fractions (which I couldnt believe b/c he is the better one at math). In the Lial's they teach them the examples and then they do the problems. I dont know how he would not be able to remember what to do. My daughter said her problem was rememebering how to do percents, and multiplying and dividing fractions. We used math mammoth, like I said, which is a mastery based approach rather than incremental/spiral approach. i am just wondering now if I messed them up by not using a spiral approach with tons and tons of review.

[TinaSC]

Ok, I just pulled out the Lials book. you are right, it is in there. I think some of the problem is that we started this book midyear and they are only in the beginning of ch. 4 which is the fraction chapter. so they WILL be covering all this again. I still dont understand how they didnt "remember" how to do the fractions on the IOWA though. Should I stop everything and do a review right now, or kieep going through Lials and do something during the summer with those basic math concepts?

[Teachin'Mine]

What I would do is right now, give them tests from the chapters of Lials you have already covered. See how they do. If they don't remember what they've learned recently, then either they're not putting in enough effort - they should be doing the problems on their own once the book has/you have taught them how - or that's not the best text for them. If they do well, then I would just continue with what you're doing. The test they took probably assumes they've completed pre-alebra as that's the "norm" for end of 8th grade. I'd also work through the summer so there's no major break to cause some forgetting and so you can do a bit of catch up.

[TinaSC]

If they don't remember what they've learned recently' date=' then either they're not putting in enough effort - they should be doing the problems on their own once the book has/you have taught them how - or that's not the best text for them. [/quote']

 

If it ends up looking like the text is not good for them, what would be a good option to switch to? Should i consider Saxon? I always said I never would, but..... I will if I need to.

[Jann in TX]

You admitted that your students have only recently started the text. The main purpose of Pre-Algebra is to make sure students have a solid foundation-- and this means reviewing things like fractions, decimals, and percents. The Lial text does a great job at reviewing/re-teaching these.

 

Let your standardized test experience HELP you-- not send you into a panic. Now you know their weak areas--when you get to those lessons you can double check to make sure they are finally understanding before you move on.

 

There is no reason to switch-- the curriculum is not to to blame here-- really there is nothing to 'blame'-- it is just a fact that your student (and MOST students at this level I've encountered) just need one more time through the material. As younger students when they worked this problem type they probably did what MOST students do-- mechanically work the problem by following a SET PATTERN. Now they are a bit older they are ready to start thinking about WHY problems are worked out a certain way... usually at that point it sticks.

[Jane in NC]

Curriculum jumping in math often creates more problems than it solves. Sometimes one just has to wash, rinse, repeat in math.

 

One thing that is not clear to me though. Are you teaching your children or are they working through Lial on their own? It might help if you sit at the table with them and have them explain their work to you. This articulation can help solidify concepts. Further, you can pinpoint problems when they arise--not after the fact.

 

Jane

[TinaSC]

Let your standardized test experience HELP you-- not send you into a panic. Now you know their weak areas--when you get to those lessons you can double check to make sure they are finally understanding before you move on.

 

There is no reason to switch-- the curriculum is not to to blame here-- really there is nothing to 'blame'-- it is just a fact that your student (and MOST students at this level I've encountered) just need one more time through the material. As younger students when they worked this problem type they probably did what MOST students do-- mechanically work the problem by following a SET PATTERN. Now they are a bit older they are ready to start thinking about WHY problems are worked out a certain way... usually at that point it sticks.

 

Jann, thanks so much! I did panic, thanks for the reminder to let the testing help me know how to help them instead of thinking I have ruined them before they even get to high school!! Also, so true about the understanding math part. In many ways, homeschooling them through their math has taught me FINALLY to understand math! I got straight A's in school but not much understanding of what I was doing, I just followed the patterns, and I want them NOT to be like that!

 

Thanks for the encouragement. We will keep moving along with Lials.

[TinaSC]

One thing that is not clear to me though. Are you teaching your children or are they working through Lial on their own? It might help if you sit at the table with them and have them explain their work to you. This articulation can help solidify concepts. Further, you can pinpoint problems when they arise--not after the fact.

 

Jane

 

Jane, I will definitely be doing this. I had been letting them work on their own completely, then I just check their answers and go over mistakes. Is it ever OK for a kid to be completely independent with math, or do they always need a tutor/teacher going over it with them first? Just curious.

[Jane in NC]

Jane, I will definitely be doing this. I had been letting them work on their own completely, then I just check their answers and go over mistakes. Is it ever OK for a kid to be completely independent with math, or do they always need a tutor/teacher going over it with them first? Just curious.

 

Certain kids with certain texts will be independent. A bright kid with The Art of Problem Solving is one example. But most students, in my opinion, need some guidance at some point in the process.

 

My son is good in Math but is not keen on the subject. I always gave him a brief rundown on the point of the lesson, did an example or two. Depending on the class, I might offer a proof of a theorem. We used Dolciani which has oral exercises, so we'd do so of those together. When I felt that he had a handle on the situation, I'd have him work on the assigned problems. If it was a tough section, I might sit at the table with him.

 

Note: some kids really need a parent at their side for the entire math assignment. Other kids enjoy the thrill of problem solving and really prefer to work out things on their own. I believe that they are a minority.

 

The problem with pre-algebra is that some kids start inventing their own methodology which works sometimes. There is a real danger of developing bad habits in pre-algebra and algebra, habits like not writing down one's work or not using equal signs properly. Given the situation you describe, I would spend some time supervising math lessons--both teaching the basic lesson and being nearby to answer questions as your students work.

 

Another idea is to use a white board so that problems can be worked on together.

[TinaSC]

thanks Jane! that makes sense to me. I guess since they were doing well so far on the tests, I thought they didnt need me, so I backed off. I will get back to going over things first with them to make sure they are really getting it. thanks!!