HELP!! I feel that I have spent 100s of hours looking at Writing/Grammar programs

[pineapplehorse]

:001_huh::001_huh::001_huh:

 

All the writing programs are starting to run together in my mind!!! I know there are a million threads on this already and that all have their pros and cons....

 

but here goes another...

 

We are planning to do TOG Year 2 next year. It will be our 4th year homeschooling but our 1st year with TOG. My oldest (gifted 6th grader for next yr) needs a writing/grammar course. We are currently finishing up Growing Up Heroic from Duke TIP, and I have really noticed that he needs serious encouragement about beefing up his writing.

 

He has AWESOME ideas, and they are fully-flushed in his mind. But when he writes them down, he writes the bare minimum, and it is like pulling eye teeth to get details. At some point along the way, he decided that a paragraph had a topic sentence and 3 supporting details. So, every paragraph he writes has exactly 4 sentences - no more, no less. If I really work at him (and type while he talks) I can get some amazing work out of him. He is definitely a "do as little as I have to and get away with it" type of student. Example - Question: "What would you do if you and your family were in this situation?" His answer: "I would do what I had to do.":tongue_smilie:

 

He did FLL in 3rd. - At the end of the yr he could diagram a sentence perfectly but still could not tell me what the subject and verb were.

 

He did Young Reader Series: Dog Stories between 3rd & 4th from JHU/CTY and got awesome feedback on his writing - but seems to have forgotten it all :glare:

 

We did 2 years of MBTP that included scattered grammar and writing...

 

 

I have looked at MCT, WWE/WWS, Writing Strands, Latin Road to Grammar, CTY's writing classes, Bravewriter, IEW, you name it.

 

My preference, hands down, would be to do CTY's grammar and then their creative writing course, but as I am already spending $1,900 a year on Math through CTY just for him, I can't afford that right now.

 

I will also be teaching a 2nd grader and a struggling-to-read-3rd grader while running two businesses from home, so I don't have all the time in the world. PLUS, in addition to TOG and writing/grammar, he will have

-Math

-Getting Started in Spanish

-some intermediate Latin program (just finished Getting Started in Latin) thus the reason for looking at Latin Road to Grammar, and

-Science

-along with guitar, gymnastics and TKD

 

so I don't know that I want to spend an hour and a half a day on grammar/writing....

 

Are you as confused as I am??? All advice is GREATLY appreciated.

 

MMM

Edited April 25, 2012 by pineapplehorse

[PeterPan]

Just as a suggestion, you might take the $10 option and get SWB's cd on Teaching Writing for K-12. She shows the whole progression and might help you figure out where he is in that. IEW would work for him. To me you got a pretty logical response for a male when you ask a very girly, thinky question. If he is super-tight on something more typical or normal to write (a description of his science lab, narration of a book), I'd be more concerned.

 

Have you taught him to type? He's beyond ready to do that. You shouldn't need to type for him. If it's actually a problem and not clicking (haha, clicking, keys), try the Dvorak keyboard layout. That plus the Mavis Beacon software has been amazing for us.

 

Try SWB's cd, listen to it, and then see what you think. Might save you some money.

[pineapplehorse]

Just as a suggestion, you might take the $10 option and get SWB's cd on Teaching Writing for K-12. She shows the whole progression and might help you figure out where he is in that. IEW would work for him. To me you got a pretty logical response for a male when you ask a very girly, thinky question. If he is super-tight on something more typical or normal to write (a description of his science lab, narration of a book), I'd be more concerned.

 

Have you taught him to type? He's beyond ready to do that. You shouldn't need to type for him. If it's actually a problem and not clicking (haha, clicking, keys), try the Dvorak keyboard layout. That plus the Mavis Beacon software has been amazing for us.

 

Try SWB's cd, listen to it, and then see what you think. Might save you some money.

 

Thanks, I will definitely look for the CD. :)

 

He just scored an 8.7 on his WJIII Writing Samples section (his actual grade level is 5.8). So he can definitely do it when he needs to...it's the getting him to do it on a daily basis. His dad is the same way...brilliant but takes a major crisis for him to apply his brain power to any extent more than ABSOLUTELY necessary.

 

He can type just fine, and produces 75% of his work in Word. It's just that it seems like his thoughts flow better if he is walking around and dictating to me instead of sitting still behind a keyboard.:001_smile:

Edited April 25, 2012 by pineapplehorse

[ErinE]

Thanks, I will definitely look for the CD. :)

 

He just scored an 8.7 on his WJIII Writing Samples section (his actual grade level is 5.8). So he can definitely do it when he needs to...it's the getting him to do it on a daily basis. His dad is the same way...brilliant but takes a major crisis for him to apply his brain power to any extent more than ABSOLUTELY necessary.

 

He can type just fine, and produces 75% of his work in Word. It's just that it seems like his thoughts flow better if he is walking around and dictating to me instead of sitting still behind a keyboard.:001_smile:

 

Have him narrate into a voice recorder and give him feedback on his output. You can listen to the oral narration and compare it to the written narration. If he can type, he shouldn't expect you to be his personal secretary.:tongue_smilie:

[Parrothead]

Did you look at Classical Writing? It is a bit teacher intensive so it may not be what you are looking for. On the other hand I didn't come across any rigorous writing program that wasn't teacher involved.

 

Most bright kids should be able to get through a grammar program mostly on their own. Have you looked into Analytical Grammar? I finally settled on it for dd's last year of middle school this fall.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Parrothead

[PeterPan]

Most bright kids should be able to get through a grammar program mostly on their own.

 

Not in our house.

 

Back to the op, if I could urge just a touch of compassion... There are definite gender gaps in writing. There's also what's called in initiation hump. There could even be a touch of ADHD or something going on when you talk about a kid who's super bright but really struggles at a couple of things. Writing in particular draws on executive function. Read "Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World" and see if anything clicks.

 

I don't buy into the idea that kids are perpetually bad. They WANT to please and WILL do what they can. When they aren't doing it, it means there's something going on that we need to find.

[Ellie]

Writing Strands. And one of the reasons I like Writing Strands is that it doesn't teach formulas such as paragraphs having one topic sentence and three supporting sentences (that formula is not uncommon :glare:).

 

And I'd start him at Level 3.

 

For grammar, Easy Grammar Plus, although truly, he might not need it this year.

[Tanikit]

Your post made me smile because I think he is being a little lazy, but even that is to be expected. Tell him that if he writes another 4 sentence paragraph then you will set him to counting sentences in paragraphs in any non-fiction text you can find just to prove your point - which would naturally take more time than just writing a few extra sentences! Of course you may still need to explain to him that a supporting detail doesn't have to be a single sentence and that you are not totally limited to 3 supporting details. And then I would probably also make sure to read to him - a lot of less than classic literature/non fiction where many of the "rules" he is reciting have been broken successfully. Rules are there to help make writing easier but if they are being stuck to too formally then creativity goes out the window and you lose the appeal of an original viewpoint.

 

Can you get him to speak his ideas out and film them before writing his piece - then you can get him to compare the two and ask him why he thinks many of his great ideas get lost when writing them down?

[pineapplehorse]

Have him narrate into a voice recorder and give him feedback on his output.

 

That is a GREAT idea!!! Thank you! The logical progression of that would then be to have him type in his own dictation. He is VERY creative and if he is moving around and talking then he does great. Never considered letting him dictate to himself. :D

 

Did you look at Classical Writing? It is a bit teacher intensive so it may not be what you are looking for. On the other hand I didn't come across any rigorous writing program that wasn't teacher involved.

 

Most bright kids should be able to get through a grammar program mostly on their own. Have you looked into Analytical Grammar? I finally settled on it for dd's last year of middle school this fall.

 

Thanks. I have looked at Classical & Anaytical Grammar. For some reason, neither really "rang" with me, but can't really tell you why.

 

Not in our house.

 

Back to the op, if I could urge just a touch of compassion... There are definite gender gaps in writing. There's also what's called in initiation hump. There could even be a touch of ADHD or something going on when you talk about a kid who's super bright but really struggles at a couple of things. Writing in particular draws on executive function. Read "Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World" and see if anything clicks.

 

 

Put it on the list for next library trip. Everyone in my family (myself and DH included/especially) is most likely high-functioning ADD/ADHD :) I have a very good friend who is a child psychologist who labels everything I tell her about every one of my children and myself :glare: I have no interest in labels, but the good part of that is that she has really shown me how to incorporate our strengths and weakness from day to day and reduce stress for one another. So anything I can learn about coping strategies I appreciate.

 

Writing Strands. And one of the reasons I like Writing Strands is that it doesn't teach formulas such as paragraphs having one topic sentence and three supporting sentences (that formula is not uncommon :glare:).

 

And I'd start him at Level 3.

 

For grammar, Easy Grammar Plus, although truly, he might not need it this year.

 

:) Thanks. I like that Writing Strands seems to encourage details by making lots of suggestions and explaining to HIM what he needs to do. And he obviously doesn't need any more "formulas". As I said earlier, he CAN do it, it's just getting it to become second nature instead of re-inventing the wheel every time we have a writing prompt. I need to go back and look at that one more.

[pineapplehorse]

Your post made me smile because I think he is being a little lazy, but even that is to be expected. Tell him that if he writes another 4 sentence paragraph then you will set him to counting sentences in paragraphs in any non-fiction text you can find just to prove your point

 

"Mentally Lazy, but Adorable, Dedicated and Gifted" could be the title of his autobiography :)

 

I like your idea about having him look at paragraphs in his favorite books (albeit they are fiction). For instance, he LOVES Edgar Rice Burroughs who can sometimes write an entire paragraph that is only one giant run-on sentence that takes up half a page (of course that creates a whole new problem:)).

 

Rules are there to help make writing easier but if they are being stuck to too formally then creativity goes out the window and you lose the appeal of an original viewpoint.

 

Precisely!!! Thank you soooo much!!!

 

That is the thought I have been struggling with, and you said it so succinctly. And he is very rule-oriented and literal in EVERY aspect of his life. I think that is why FLL did not work for him at all. He learned the diagramming rules and could do it in his sleep, but the reasons why went in one ear and out the other.

 

So, what I need is a writing curriculum that encourages the creativity OVER or IN SPITE OF the rules...is Writing Strands that curriculum :confused: If not, is one of the others?

[pineapplehorse]

BTW, does anyone have experience with Duke TIP's "The Writer's Journey?"

[PeterPan]

That is a GREAT idea!!! Thank you! The logical progression of that would then be to have him type in his own dictation. He is VERY creative and if he is moving around and talking then he does great. Never considered letting him dictate to himself. :D

 

 

 

Thanks. I have looked at Classical & Anaytical Grammar. For some reason, neither really "rang" with me, but can't really tell you why.

 

 

 

Put it on the list for next library trip. Everyone in my family (myself and DH included/especially) is most likely high-functioning ADD/ADHD :) I have a very good friend who is a child psychologist who labels everything I tell her about every one of my children and myself :glare: I have no interest in labels, but the good part of that is that she has really shown me how to incorporate our strengths and weakness from day to day and reduce stress for one another. So anything I can learn about coping strategies I appreciate.

 

 

 

:) Thanks. I like that Writing Strands seems to encourage details by making lots of suggestions and explaining to HIM what he needs to do. And he obviously doesn't need any more "formulas". As I said earlier, he CAN do it, it's just getting it to become second nature instead of re-inventing the wheel every time we have a writing prompt. I need to go back and look at that one more.

 

Ok, I understand the anti-label thing, but I'll point out that labels sometimes open doors. Well not the labels but the piece of paper that comes WITH the labels. Since you know you've got some ADHD going on in the family, I would encourage you to get the eval, get the paper trail going. You don't have to use that paper trail later, but it's there if you need it.

 

The things you would find out in a full eval that you don't know now? Processing speed, working memory, EF, exactly *why* he's having trouble getting those thoughts out. With the right label you're going to start looking in the right places for the answers. That Right-Brained book is a good start. The EF workbooks from Linguisystems would help you. SWB's cd will help. Put that and the EF workbooks together and you start to get this aha moment about these kids.

 

Honestly, I think you're beating at writing the wrong way with him, if he's actually ADHD that is. Their EF portion of the brain that controls structure, etc. just isn't as developed as the rest. He might benefit from something like Jensen's Format Writing or IEW with more clear expectations. I have my dd outlining articles in Muse magazine. So she outlines paragraphs and essays there and suddenly has these lightbulb moments about why structure works the way it does. It's where WTM and the SN converge. You just have to get it out of the box a bit. It doesn't seem like doing all that writing for those lit guides is going well, so I suggest you toss it, do that writing via discussion, and focus on writing that he CAN do. Take apart interesting sources a la WTM or use something with structure (Writing Skills, IEW). He's at an ok age for imitation. CW was a mixed bag for us, so I can't say I highly recommend. I think imitation has its place. You can sort that out as you listen to SWB's cd.

 

BTW, there are lots of gifted pencil phobes over on the SN board. You might enjoy visiting there. ;)

[birchbark]

Get a typing program to teach him how to type. Typing (as opposed to handwriting) makes all the difference in the world for my DS's compositions.

 

For a quick, thorough grammar, look at Daily Grammar Practice. I am trying a really good writing program myself this year: Understanding Writing.

[lillybell]

I have 2 ADHD daughters and I used to have the same issue with writing. They hated writing but they had great writing skills just trouble putting it on paper. If I sat them down and gave them a topic to write, they would get frustrated and take forever to get it done. Something that would typically take 30 minutes to an hour, they could drag on for days. I searched and searched and tried many different curriculum until I finally saw what was going on.

 

The trouble for them was not knowing where to start and not having clear directions. They have a hard time organizing their thoughts. One of my daughters loves to bake and she is great at following directions but if you tell her to go do something without clear direction, she will not know where to begin.

 

What finally worked for us was a combination of Easy Grammar and Winning with writing. The easy grammar is pretty clear and the Winning with Writing is done in small daily steps every day. This has really helped. For spelling we do Spelling Power. None of these are time consuming on my part so it has worked so far.

 

Structure with clear direction has been the key in my situation.

Edited April 26, 2012 by lillybell
forgot to include a small statement

[PeterPan]

Structure with clear direction has been the key in my situation.

 

Bingo! :iagree:

 

And welcome to the boards Lillybell! :)

[Deee]

I'm one of those gifted lazy types. So is DS11. My word he's lazy! Its like looking in a mirror (one of the Universe's little jokes). He also has dyspraxia, so some days he's just tired and writing is too much. Most days I can tell the difference, though. He hated Writing Strands and learned heaps in level 3. This year we're using Killgallon for a bit of variety, having a year off formal grammar, and using lots of Brave Writer's methods and advice (mainly for me!). We'll do WS level 4 next year (year 7) with Analytical Grammar and more Brave Writer. Writing Strands isn't formulaic, and I think this is great for lazies because it makes us think without the spoon-feeding of a formula. Writing by formula only makes us lazier and less creative (beautifully illustrated by all my essays on metaphysical poetry in year 12).

 

You could try debating as a way of making him structure his thoughts, research and arguments. Highly appealing to lazies as you don't have to write much. You can get by with writing only memory joggers, and you learn to construct cohesive arguments in your head, which makes timed high school level essay writing a breeze. And he can stand-up and wander around a bit while he's doing it. Film him if he'll let you. If you pick something he's really passionate about, he may just blow you away. If he can blow himself away as well, you might ignite a real fire in him. Remember, at this stage learning to write is a means to an end, not the end in itself and much of the progress is maturity related (I may just be typing this for myself, so take it with a grain of salt:001_smile:)

D

[PeterPan]

Deee, when you say dyspraxia, where is the area of praxis? Just wondering, because my ds has verbal apraxia. I've heard it called dyspraxia by some people from other countries, and I've also seen dyspraxia referring to OT. (ie. the SLPs might call it apraxia and OTs call it dyspraxia) Anyways, I was just curious. I try to watch how things turn out for people to see what might be down the road for my ds. :)

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

:lol: I have been looking alot too.

 

We finally decided to try Latin Road 1 and Rod and Staff 6/ IEW: How to write a story, and Omnibus assignments with added Mavis Beacon Typing practice.

We also use Grammar Songs, FLL and WWE.

Spelling Plus and Sequential Spelling.

[Deee]

Hi Elizabeth,

he has mild non-verbal and motor dyspraxia. I think its known as developmental co-ordination disorder in the US (we're Australian). Its manifested as a variety of problems over the years: very unsettled as a baby, combined with severe reflux, messy eating, lack of pattern recognition, poor co-ordination and inability to complete multi-stepped tasks, poor sleep patterns (still has trouble settling himself), messy handwriting, still can't tie his shoelaces, finds swimming very hard (not good in Australia!) and has difficulty reading complex social situations (he likes smaller groups and doesn't understand manipulation - he has no cunning). He can also be very anxious. He has no verbal issues - he'd talk the leg off a chair and reads EVERYTHING. He's very good at language arts stuff.

 

Honestly, the biggest challenge is the social stuff and the fact that some days he's just so tired from seemingly normal activities that the whole day is a write-off. Yesterday was one of those days. He'd spent Wednesday playing with a friend and his brother. They played hard and had a great time. He could barely eat his dinner. Yesterday, everything was too hard, he dissolved into tears at the drop of a hat and we only got maths done. Meanwhile, the other kids went off to school cheerfully and did a full days school work. Today we'll catch-up.

D

[PeterPan]

Now I understand! We've had other people on the SN board post about developmental co-ordination disorder. Well fascinating, glad you shared that! :)

[pineapplehorse]

I'm one of those gifted lazy types. So is DS11. My word he's lazy! Its like looking in a mirror (one of the Universe's little jokes). Writing by formula only makes us lazier and less creative (beautifully illustrated by all my essays on metaphysical poetry in year 12).

 

You could try debating as a way of making him structure his thoughts, research and arguments. Highly appealing to lazies as you don't have to write much. You can get by with writing only memory joggers, and you learn to construct cohesive arguments in your head, which makes timed high school level essay writing a breeze. And he can stand-up and wander around a bit while he's doing it. Film him if he'll let you. If you pick something he's really passionate about, he may just blow you away. If he can blow himself away as well, you might ignite a real fire in him. Remember, at this stage learning to write is a means to an end, not the end in itself and much of the progress is maturity related (I may just be typing this for myself, so take it with a grain of salt:001_smile:)

D

 

Thanks for the idea. Especially for your last sentence :) I think we get so caught up in what to do next that we (and by we I mean me) lose sight of that a lot.