Rod & Staff Math vs. SM

[Monarch Room]

My dd6 has worked through 1a and 1b of Singapore Math this year. No real blips. He's had some difficulty with addition and subtraction in the hundreds, but we worked through it. My 3rd grader in PS is working through SM 2a and 2b after school. It has really helped him catch up where he was behind in school. I'm finding that SM is about 1 year ahead of our PS's instruction.

 

SM is a great program. I really do believe in how the concepts are taught. I'm finding though that my dd6 loses the information from the previous concept. We worked also through the Extra Practice book. He seemed to have all his facts down, but as we worked through the other topics, they seemed to melt away from his little memory. I'm just morbidly curious basically if R&S would be a good detour, or maybe a summer program for my kids to help them seal in the facts? I realize that R&S is so completely different in educational philosophy, and is far more traditional. I'm not sure I love that. Another problem is that SM adds up financially when you add in the HIGs, workbooks, textbooks, ep, word problems, oh my!

 

What level of R&S compare to SM 2a-2b? What level would compare to 3a-3b? What's funny is that I would never even look twice at R&S before, and I'm finding that I actually do like some of their curricula.

 

Anyway, any help would be lovely :)

[wapiti]

Is the need for review of concepts or of math facts? Two different things...

 

There have been many threads about working on math facts. Perhaps the Right Start card games would be the perfect summer activity for solidifying those. (I'm not familiar with them or I'd link you, but they are highly recommended.)

[Monarch Room]

I do have RS math games, and plan to use them this summer :) I have lots of games, and living math books. I guess my question was more about comparing the 2 programs. I am wondering which level of R&S would compare to SM. Also, which of the 2 is more successful in sealing in both concepts and facts?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

How about Math Mammoth or CLE math? We have both as well as one year of Singapore.

[didadeewiththree]

We like Rod and Staff here because it really drills those addition and subtraction facts. We also do Rightstart math to supplement, plus the games for reinforcement. Both my two younger kids benefit from R & S, even though I sometimes feel it is overkill on the facts. I like the layout too; it is mastery oriented. I also like it because it gives us some variety. I use Rod and Staff as the main program for my daughter, with Rightstart as a supplement, and I do the opposite for my son, Rightstart with Rod and Staff as supplement. I personally like using Rod and Staff as a supplement better. It' s a great program though.

[Monarch Room]

We like Rod and Staff here because it really drills those addition and subtraction facts. We also do Rightstart math to supplement, plus the games for reinforcement. Both my two younger kids benefit from R & S, even though I sometimes feel it is overkill on the facts. I like the layout too; it is mastery oriented. I also like it because it gives us some variety. I use Rod and Staff as the main program for my daughter, with Rightstart as a supplement, and I do the opposite for my son, Rightstart with Rod and Staff as supplement. I personally like using Rod and Staff as a supplement better. It' s a great program though.[/quote

 

I had that thought as well of using it as a supplement. Maybe I could eliminate the SM EP, and use r&s as reinforcement.

[didadeewiththree]

I think that it cant hurt to try. maybe you should also consider usinf more manipulatives too, like an Al abacus, a base 10 set, etc. It really takes learning the concepts to the next level when you use concrete manipulatives to seal the deal.

 

Rod and Staff is also so cheap too, and we skip buying the teacher's guide since we use another program too. If I was using it as a stand alone product, I would buy the TM and have more interaction with them while they are working. I rarely have to help anyone in R&S, except to say directions once in a while for my son, who just started using R& S as a supplement just a month ago, although he did do some beginning 2nd gr work in months past. He liked his sister's so much, I bought him his own 1st grade books A and B and hes already on lesson 40 something.

[Heidi]

If you want to get the facts down, why not try https://www.xtramath.org/ ? My kids have improved so quickly on their facts doing this everyday. It is FREE!

 

Rod & Staff is not conceptual like Singapore. I switched from R&S when I realized I wanted to teach the "why" behind math. We have really loved Math Mammoth here. It is a lot cheaper than Singapore as well.

[chepyl]

If you want to get the facts down, why not try https://www.xtramath.org/ ? My kids have improved so quickly on their facts doing this everyday. It is FREE!

 

Rod & Staff is not conceptual like Singapore. I switched from R&S when I realized I wanted to teach the "why" behind math. We have really loved Math Mammoth here. It is a lot cheaper than Singapore as well.

 

:iagree:

 

You can also grab some math workbooks at the dollar store. I printed drill sheets of the internet. I don't remember where, just Google math drill sheets. It helped solidify our addition amd subtraction facts last year.

[walkermamaof4]

Maybe Dreambox would be a fun way to help cement facts and reinforce concepts as well. We use R&S for a very nonmathy kid who needs massive amounts of repetition. I think it would be a lot of work for anyone else and not much fun. The math games should do the trick. We love them.

[Spy Car]

 

Anyway, any help would be lovely :)

 

I'll offer an alternative for you to ponder. Rather than adding something like R&S that is gong to bring so little to the table beyond practice, why not consider using MEP?

 

MEP is free, other than the cost of printing. MEP is "spiral" so the concepts learned in Singapore will be reviewed (at a very deep level). MEP is "whole/parts" math (like Singapore) but has its own look and unique challenges. MEP is "mathy" and will help build high-level thinking skills in a way even the basic Singapore materials do not. And, lastly, the MEP Lesson Plans have great ideas for activity based learning.

 

This is an option if you want to aim for "greatness." The best thing is you could try it without risk and see if it works for you.

 

If all you are missing is "fact practice" then the http://www.xtramath.org website mentioned by Hmsmith is a good way to do daily practice that is monitored for progress and mastery by the system software.

 

Best wishes.

 

Bill

[jennynd]

I make my own review sheet for my DS. just couple question on each topic taught previously to keep him fresh. He is on higher grade though

I do not do that with my DD who is using miquon. I feel the facts reviewed constantly and I ask her facts when we go shopping, in the bath..etc

Edited April 24, 2012 by jennynd

[walkermamaof4]

I second Bill's MEP suggestion!

[SilverMoon]

R&S is not like SM, and it didn't make the cut for the kewl kids math club, but just because it doesn't teach like the popular Asian curricula doesn't mean it's not teaching whys. :tongue_smilie:

 

My 6yo has used R&S from the start, and is using the R&S 3 book currently. She goes through the oral teaching in the TE with me which covers new concepts and how they work. She absolutely understands the math she is doing before she ever gets to her worksheet, and can explain it thoroughly in her own words. Ad nauseam. The only changes I've made are giving her blocks when we get to new concepts (stacks of 2x2 Lego bricks or C-Rods), and we build tens and take them apart, rather than "carrying and borrowing." Well, and I make the oral "triplet" practice more interactive instead of just a poster we point to (the TE does the latter). She has gotten really fast at seeing values in her head and adding them together. I know she hasn't merely memorized them because this a child who does everything out loud. ;) "8 plus 6... If I take 2 from the 6 and give it to the 8 the 8 will be a 10, and the 6 will be a ...4--14!!"

 

My older three students have also used R&S as the core and in parts at different times. They all benefited strongly. Two are multiple grades ahead in math, and the one who tended toward struggling with math has caught up and stayed there. The thoroughness enabled them to launch ahead. For what it's worth, only one of my kids used R&S math on grade level. The others were/are all working above their grade level.

 

I don't know which levels best line up with SM and I can't compare them. You will probably want to go up a grade. The first few books are very gentle, focusing on basic facts. The 1 book starts at the beginning with understanding number sense, and focuses on sums/minuends up to 10. The 2 book covers sums/minuends up to 20, adding and subtracting multiple digit problems with and without "carrying/borrowing," and more. The 3 book takes those concepts further and adds multiplication and division; it's a textbook with plenty of room for writing in as if it was a workbook (this is what my dd is doing). The 4 book ramps it up and puts it on par with the average non-Asian math curricula. You can see samples at http://www.rodandstaffbooks.com (a distributor).

[Monarch Room]

Thank you all for your help and insight. The truth is (confession) that I am kind of a math curricula junkie. I didn't love math growing up, so I'm determined to teach that math can be fun, and that anyone can be successful at learning it (there's no "I'm not a math person" around here.) I want them to have a firm grip on the whys, but also set them up for success with a firm grasp on basic math so that when we get into the higher grades they don't struggle.

 

SilverMoon I have seen your many posts on R&S, and it had me intrigued because it seems you are having success. And of course, I know who Bill is :) Doesn't everyone? He's the one who brainwashed me on Miquon (which I love as well.) We have tons of games, and manipulatives (way more than anyone should probably have.) I actually did do MEP reception with my youngest for pre-k. It's awesome too. I suppose I just need to stop being curious about so many different things and commit to one. I was kind of curious to see what the Asian Math users would say when Rod and Staff was mentioned.

 

I have no idea how I became so obsessed with Math. I guess I wish I had had a teacher that loved it along the way. I want my kids to have a love for learning no matter what the subject is. I have found it so fun to learn all the diverse ways of teaching.

[Spy Car]

Thank you all for your help and insight. The truth is (confession) that I am kind of a math curricula junkie. I didn't love math growing up, so I'm determined to teach that math can be fun, and that anyone can be successful at learning it (there's no "I'm not a math person" around here.) I want them to have a firm grip on the whys, but also set them up for success with a firm grasp on basic math so that when we get into the higher grades they don't struggle.

 

SilverMoon I have seen your many posts on R&S, and it had me intrigued because it seems you are having success. And of course, I know who Bill is :) Doesn't everyone? He's the one who brainwashed me on Miquon (which I love as well.) We have tons of games, and manipulatives (way more than anyone should probably have.) I actually did do MEP reception with my youngest for pre-k. It's awesome too. I suppose I just need to stop being curious about so many different things and commit to one. I was kind of curious to see what the Asian Math users would say when Rod and Staff was mentioned.

 

I have no idea how I became so obsessed with Math. I guess I wish I had had a teacher that loved it along the way. I want my kids to have a love for learning no matter what the subject is. I have found it so fun to learn all the diverse ways of teaching.

 

I'm like you. I wasn't "mathy" growing up. I though math was "boring." Because, for the most part, it was (the way they taught it in school). With the "traditional" way one barely had to think. One plugged in the numbers to a given formula or worked a standard algorithm and got the right answer. Big whoop.

 

I too wish I had some teach me using materials like the best offerings available to home educators today. It makes the subject exciting. That is what happens when ones mind is engaged and the problem solving challenges the intellect.

 

You've become obsessed with it the same way I did, because we both discovered that math education can be cool. And our children will have a very different experience than we did, and we will get to tag along on their adventure and have a "second-childhood." :D

 

There is no reason to settle on one program if you have the time and interest to draw on multiple sources. Different programs bring different things to the mix.

 

You know how Miquon builds mathematical thinking by allowing a child to be hands on with concrete manipulatives like Cuisenaire Rods and in a playful way build a sense of autonomy and competence.

 

Singapore takes that "whole-parts" model that Miquon introduces and methodically builds it up into a powerful math model.

 

MEP shares that math model and is especially good at encapsulating problems that require mathematical thinking and the stretching of little minds.

 

Looking ahead (for you) Beast Academy is another amazing depth curriculum that children raised on some compination of Miquon-MEP-Singapore-RS are almost sure to love.

 

RS games (and other games)are a fun way to reenforce the "math facts" in an enjoyable way.

 

Xtramath and other electronic games are ways to do "drill" if needed in ways that attempt to minimize "anxiety."

 

Real-life opportunities to bring "math lessons" into day to day activities can not be over-estimated in terms of importance.

 

It can be hard to "do it all." I can't use all the things I'd like to. But I believe ne can kill two bits with one stone, that is to say one can get in the "practice" of keeping skills sharp and working the noodles of children. This keeps interest high and helps create *thinkers.* And that's really what we want, isn't it?

 

Bill

Edited April 24, 2012 by Spy Car

[Monarch Room]

That was a beautiful summary of all those programs. I of course have my eye on Beast Academy as well :001_wub:. I'm happy to know that you weren't always in love with math either. I would have guessed otherwise. Math is SO fun. I would never have guessed I would have said that, but it is. Who knows what I would have become had I had the opportunity to learn it differently? Thank you for taking the time to write all that!

[NASDAQ]

Remember that many people in Singapore are also doing drill (I think I saw as high as 80% are doing cram school of some sort), so it makes sense that SM alone will not get the facts in solidly in some children.

 

I would not use R&S just for drill. If you want drill, there are lots of good worksheet-makers online. Do a page or so a day, check, correct, and keep rotating through pages that aren't done to 95%+ accuracy.

[boscopup]

One thing I found interesting about the R&S 1 TM is that it teaches "seeing" numbers instead of counting, just like Rightstart does. Made me wonder if R&S is Rightstart in Mennonite textbook format. :lol:

 

I'm still sticking with Singapore myself (we like it a lot). The "seeing" numbers in Rightstart was one thing that turned me off - teaching that instead of counting (though R&S teaches counting well in their ABC series - my middle son who didn't learning counting to 10 on his own via real life no matter how many times I counted objects around him learned very quickly with the R&S Counting With Numbers workbook).

 

Anyway, no idea on comparing R&S and Singapore. I just thought the "seeing" numbers thing was interesting. :D