2E: Does anyone want to talk out of the box with me?

[FairProspects]

Now that I know exactly what is going on after our neuropsych eval, I'm thinking of going rogue. Because, basically nothing about this kid is inside the box, so I'm pretty sure everything I use will have to be out there as well.

 

The only thing in our current line-up that I'm committed to keeping is AAS since it works on sound segmentation and dictation, both of which are areas where ds needs continued work. Otherwise, narration is going to have to be overhauled. I'm thinking about teaching math conceptually, going by topic rather than grade level spirals (teaching place value to 1000 all at once, fractions, etc).

 

For writing, I'm also going to need a change. Has anyone tried Singapore's Sentences to Paragraphs? What have you done instead of narration for a kid who needs time to process? Talk to me about your out-of-the-box writing ideas that have been successful with your 2Es. How can I get what is going on inside his head, out of his head when there is an output problem?

[Geo]

:lurk5:

[rafiki]

,

[Guest]

No advice but interested in the topic.

 

:lurk5:

[Guest]

Along with a Neuropsychological evaluation, I also found this book invaluable. http://learningsuccessinstitute.com/homeschoolers.html I used the book, but later discovered I could have gotten to the same point online. I will be using the online version with my youngest in a couple years.

 

For an example, my oldest does not fit in any sort of box. Nothing I read about sounded like him, including the DA. He's not a VSL although creative in a non traditional sense. He has a huge spread between his verbal and spatial skills. His working memory and processing were in line with IQ. However he had single digit executive functioning to go along with ADHD combined type and Anxiety - subtype adjustment disorder. So while the NP report helped with that stuff, it was that info combined with having him do a learning style summary that truly helped.

 

We implemented the NP's recs of no dyes, preservatives, daily exercise, etc., worked on EF through both of Linguisystem's books, and use his learning profile for the rest. Things have been going really well.

 

The book linked helped me set up an environment in which he learns best, tailor his modality of input, and adjust is output to fit his disposition. It also gave me his talents and interests in which to continue to build up and dovetail his studies with. I also use those to guide me in electives. I thought I knew or could guess many of his answers, but many actually surprised me. Just because someone is good at something, doesn't mean they necessarily enjoy it.

 

You also may like the books Legendary Learning by Jamie McMillin and Coloring Outside the Lines by Roger Schank.

 

Michele, thank you for reminding me about Discover Your Child's Learning Style and thank you even more for the website (I had no idea about that!). I did Adrian's profile when he was 4 and it was helpful. I think I will be reading the book again and then printing the profile and having him do it on his own now. I soooo... agree with this, that you said.

 

Just because someone is good at something, doesn't mean they necessarily enjoy it.

[MomatHWTK]

What's the age of student?

 

DS gets very upset at perceived failure and we are working on getting that under control so I'm not going to push composition writing right now.

For my 5th grader, I teach grammar and writing concepts by having him read about them and use an online program. I do not require written output because that is a HUGE problem for him. Math, we work forward conceptually without requiring memorization. I tried, it doesn't stick, we're moving forward.

 

We use an internet based program for most of our subjects, some read alouds by me, some discussion and a few books he reads on his own. Because of the anxiety issues I assist with any testing so they are "review of knowledge" rather than "testing."

 

I do have a list of resources that a friend share with me for children who have handwriting and output issues, but we aren't ready to implement these yet.

Adaptive Technologies:

1. For written language assignments, Co:Writer Solo Edition. It includes "flexible spelling and the capability to load topic dictionaries from the site or from, say, Wikipedia. So, if you're writing a paper on Italy, you can load from an online source a "dictionary" of terms/cities, etc., you might need. NB: This software is expensive. But I can already say that it has been worth every penny. Also, it will be appropriate for any postsecondary school my son should choose.

 

http://www.donjohnston.com

 

2. For math, we use the Efofex MathPack and SciencePack. This is free with a documented disability. This is to completely lift off any stress of handwriting for advanced math problems.

 

http://www.efofex.com

 

3. For printing/copying/completion of worksheets on the computer, PaperPort 12 is a direct answer to prayer. Worksheets ("homemade" or his Teaching Textbooks, e.g.) and tests can be scanned onto my son’s laptop, he types in the answers rather than write them by hand, and voila: beautiful product that shows what he really knows rather than (again) draining his batteries working on the mechanics of handwriting.

 

So far, he's used this with Teaching Textbooks and monkeying around with a grammar workbook. He wants to do Progeny Press' Lord of the Rings studies. This will be fantastic for that purpose.

 

http://www.nuance.com

 

4. The Inspiration graphic organizing software for any type of written work needing organization. I was so impressed with it when we had the free trial going that I ordered the 3-pack. I wish this thing had been around when I was in school! This is not solely geared for people with "needs". Laura Esquivel used it while writing Like Water for Chocolate.

 

http://www.inspiration.com

 

5. For adapted keyboarding (traditional touch-typing can be difficult to impossible for kids with dysgraphia, depending on its severity), Ultra-Key 5.0 Although Ultra-Key is made to teach touch-typing, we just ignore this and use an adapted keyboarding method.

 

http://www.bytesoflearning.com

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Well for math, you just described Right Start. ;)

 

On the writing, have you listened to SWB's lecture yet? If you're gonna go out of the box, get the lecture from the woman who tells you how to draw your own box. When you buy another curriculum, you're still shoving him in the box. You don't yet see how his brain connects to readiness connects to the skills. You do the skills he's ready to do. SWB's talk shows you the skills.

 

Personally, I think typing is much more important than structured writing before (whatever age). And I think typing IS the precursor to structured writing for certain kids, because it gets the processing of the handwriting out of the way, leaving them only thinking about the actual writing, not how to get it out. So my advice is you want good writing, get the typing working. For us it was the Dvorak keyboard layout plus Mavis Beacon. The Dvorak thing is a toggle, costs nothing, much more efficient with no midline crosses, blah blah. Totally changed her life. And Mavis Beacon is just plain awesome, totally worth the money.

 

When they have it in their heads and they can get it out, you start to see something. Too many writing programs just leave you hanging with nothing in your head but expecting you to write. Or they don't have a way to teach structure and the logic of writing clearly. There are things I *thought* my dd understood in 4th and 5th about writing that I now see she didn't. SWB's steps in her writing lectures are actually spot on for how the skills will develop. You just use a schedule that fits your dc's readiness to *do* that skill, make sense?

 

I think writing prompts are awesome, but you have to know *why* you would use them. Writing prompts allow your dc to practice the basics of writing (how to form letters, basic spelling, basic punctuation) with no concern over content (it's in their head already), with no pressure, and with the HUMOR these kids appreciate. I don't know about your kid, but I can't get just anything out of her. There has to be some interest or there's no engagement, not attention. Writing prompts allow you to overcome that. For the very young child (4th or 5th and under?) that plus dictation plus narrations to whatever extent they are capable would be my big goals. Something out in some form. Something out a variety of ways.

 

Well whatever, we could go on about this a long time. Just don't get all afraid and try a billion things. Learn the steps from SWB's talks and see where your dc is at in the process. There will come a time for structured writing approaches, absolutely. Just doesn't have to be in 2nd or 3rd, my two cents.

[FairProspects]

MomatHWTK - thank you for all those amazing resources! Some are expensive, but they are going on the long term "to purchase" list.

 

OhE - I think our students may be very different though. Our neuropsychs specifically said not to use Mavis Bacon because of ds's slow processing speed and the timing aspect as well as his sensory issues. Isn't there some kind of red light that flashes on that program when the student gets something wrong? Ds would lose it over that.

 

As for SWB's writing lectures, I love them and listen to them often, but I'm not actually sure they are the way to go for this ds. He has all the thoughts up there in his head, but he has such difficulty with storing and retrieving words, that narration on the spot is nearly impossible for him, and not just because of handwriting. He is also a slow processor, and I'm thinking he would work much better in a discussion format a couple of days later to give him time to process and then show what he knows. Maybe I should just summarize the narrations for him and have him repeat it back? The neuropsychs recommended going a completely different direction for writing altogether, so I may pursue that.

 

The neuropsychs said a big part of his brain normally used for language is taken up by spatial processing and that I should not expect language/writing development for him until about adolescence. He is the classic M-strengths kid in DA. This kid is future engineer or scientist, not a writer. Not that I won't teach him writing, but I am going to have to approach it much differently, I think.

[onaclairadeluna]

Narration was almost impossible for DS as well. We have been using WWS this year (8th grade) and he's finally able to do it but WWE or narration ala SWB was nearly impossible. What I wound up doing instead is having lots of informal discussions. He could tell me things, he just couldn't summarize into a neat package. I think this practice helped him in the long run.

 

I separated any sort of skill practice from content. He loves studying and I didn't want to ruin this love of learning by coupling it with a dry and frustrating task. On the other hand I made him practice dry tasks daily.

 

What are the things your DS can do or enjoys doing? How can you sneak in skill based practice?

 

Typing was also hard for my guy handwriting was and is actually easier (not sure why). One thing I am noticing is that my guy writes better than he talks (because he needs time to think about what he is going to say. So going straight to written narrations was the way to go for him.

 

Another thing that REALLY helped get my kid talking was (and is) taking him on a walk. When he walks he can talk. Funny but it works for him.

 

I found SWB lectures helpful in a diagnostic way. DS is terrific at dictation and outlining but narration is difficult. So if I wanted to make him feel awesome we'd take out some super difficult passage and have him write it down. Great opportunity for writing practice and seeing words spelled correctly on the page. I snuck in the narration. "Let's see if we can do this, it's probably going to be hard but see if you can..." . I didn't do anything specific to practice that skill but informal conversations and other types of writing seemed to eventually help him formulate a summary. He still takes an enormous amount of time.

 

Are you seeing an SLP? Maybe they would have some suggestions.

[peacefully]

.

[PeterPan]

MomatHWTK - thank you for all those amazing resources! Some are expensive, but they are going on the long term "to purchase" list.

 

OhE - I think our students may be very different though. Our neuropsychs specifically said not to use Mavis Bacon because of ds's slow processing speed and the timing aspect as well as his sensory issues. Isn't there some kind of red light that flashes on that program when the student gets something wrong? Ds would lose it over that.

 

As for SWB's writing lectures, I love them and listen to them often, but I'm not actually sure they are the way to go for this ds. He has all the thoughts up there in his head, but he has such difficulty with storing and retrieving words, that narration on the spot is nearly impossible for him, and not just because of handwriting. He is also a slow processor, and I'm thinking he would work much better in a discussion format a couple of days later to give him time to process and then show what he knows. Maybe I should just summarize the narrations for him and have him repeat it back? The neuropsychs recommended going a completely different direction for writing altogether, so I may pursue that.

 

The neuropsychs said a big part of his brain normally used for language is taken up by spatial processing and that I should not expect language/writing development for him until about adolescence. He is the classic M-strengths kid in DA. This kid is future engineer or scientist, not a writer. Not that I won't teach him writing, but I am going to have to approach it much differently, I think.

 

No, I think we're saying the same things. I said you don't need to do structured writing and whatnot till a much higher grade, because you're not likely to get it till then, exactly what your neuropsych said and what we're experiencing. My dd has 30-35th percentile processing speed, so I do know what you're talking about. (Of course there are kids with much lower!) Same deal here, with no on the spot answers. He said she would need all the discussion questions ahead now and for college as an accommodation. It makes life very frustrating. Just wait till he's a teen. Happened again this morning. EVERYTHING I do I basically would have to wait three times as long on. There's never an immediate response.

 

Narration is horrible here too.

 

So I do know what you're talking about. What I think you're not catching about SWB's talk is that it may come *with time*. He's not going to be the same child in 5 years as he is now. He'll be just as frustrating, but these things are going to improve. To me it's more a thing of knowing what I *might* be able to get and then seeing if I can get it at some level. I suggested to you writing prompts. Writing prompts are in their head, so they don't have to process to the same extent as a narration. It's like a narration without a narration I guess. :D When my dd was young (I forget the age of your ds, sorry), we did the Anti-Coloring books a lot. With those you have a picture prompt and can respond any way you want. You can draw, color, write, anything. It's a great way to start SOMETHING without it being so hard.

 

I think it's important not to view our kids too in the box. School work is *not* the only way to work on these skills. When you play a game and talk as you play, you're working on expressive language. There are games that work on working memory as well. When you prompt him to tell people about his day and help him through it (what I had to do till about, mercy, 6th grade?), you're doing narration. But in none of that does he go through torture and think he's doing SWB's progression. He is, but you're just getting it in a different way.

 

My son went from NOTHING with speech to being extremely talkative. I'm totally sold on the value of games. I just invested in a whole bunch more in the last couple weeks. I bought some that were mentioned in a logic games thread here on the board. Seriously, if you did nothing but logic games with him every day for an hour and talked with him, you'd be stretching him. They have ages on the box, so you can back it up till you find a level that works for him.

 

I don't watch my dd doing Mavis Beacon. I'll point out that she's almost 13. When she was young I used the Typing Instructor thing that Timberdoodle sells. I also tried the Jr. version of it. It was hard for her, but for her the midline crosses and overall fine motor were a worse problem. Now she's at a point, at 12 1/2-13, where it's coming together. I think your np is totally right that some things need time. Doesn't mean we don't try, but we don't fret when we know we've tried adequately and have hit a wall. She had the wigging out thing with Quarter Mile math years ago when we tried it. She's not having it with Mavis Beacon now. Honestly though, she doesn't do the lessons. She only plays the games, and I don't think there's anything perjorative or mean or negative about them at all. You can basically take forever on some of them and it's fine. And they're really adorable and creative. Like this one has you making crazy test tube animals from lettered DNA. :lol: So I would look at it and decide for yourself. I absolutely would not do anything that stresses him out. My dd would lock up under that too. She plays the games. I gave her a keyboard printout for the dvorak layout. She was pretty motivated because I also gave her an email account. So she basically forced herself to learn the letters she needed. It was much more effective than the torture lessons had ever been. You can find ways to get there, kwim? Carrots for the mules. We all need more carrots...

Edited March 9, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[FairProspects]

So I do know what you're talking about. What I think you're not catching about SWB's talk is that it may come *with time*. He's not going to be the same child in 5 years as he is now. He'll be just as frustrating, but these things are going to improve. To me it's more a thing of knowing what I *might* be able to get and then seeing if I can get it at some level. I suggested to you writing prompts. Writing prompts are in their head, so they don't have to process to the same extent as a narration. It's like a narration without a narration I guess. :D When my dd was young (I forget the age of your ds, sorry), we did the Anti-Coloring books a lot. With those you have a picture prompt and can respond any way you want. You can draw, color, write, anything. It's a great way to start SOMETHING without it being so hard.

 

 

Ack, so many thoughts in my brain! It is going to take weeks to process them all and modify all the educational tracks that need to be changed.

 

I get it now, for some reason I thought you were discouraging the use of prompts. I think you are right that ds would do well with some kind of prompt or the Co-Writer program that comes up with the vocab for you.

 

Yllek - My ds does better the higher up Bloom's taxonomy I go as well. I may need to check out the pamphlet you recommended and change my questions. The re-telling the story with pictures or puppets was recommended by the neuropsychs as well, so it seems like we are all talking circles around the same type of rogue instruction, but at least the direction seems to be in agreement.

 

Onaclairadeluna - I love that those of you with teens really are seeing this come together as the dc get older. It gives me hope that I can continue with discussions and expressive language exercises without frustration and trust that some of this will come together in a few years.

[PeterPan]

Ooo, puppets sound fun! I got a book on felt puppets to make for my ds, but the glues I've tried don't work right. :(

[RamonaQ]

Ok. I will jump in. My ds is almost 12 yo and has a profile quite similar to your ds, it sounds. Here is how we "went rogue" with writing. We just didn't do anything formal until 5th grade. Seriously. I think we started doing some very, very mild copy work in 4th grade.

 

We did a lot of playing in the Peggy Kaye book and keeping things very light and fun in 3rd grade. Every once in a while ds was inspired to do some writing on his own for a project he was interested in, otherwise, I made no requirement of him. I mostly had ds orally narrating and summarizing stories to me, which I sometimes typed for him. We also did a lot of reading and talking about books (in those days I was reading him about 500 pages/ week). We would wonder about what would happen next, talk about the characters, talk about plot, setting, theme, etc... We would compare and contrast, critique, explain, identify favorite parts, etc... But write, no.

 

In 5th grade, when I finally felt ready to work on formal writing, we used Verticy, which I still love so very much. Mid-5th grade I signed ds up for "typing boot camp" (local; PM if you want the name) because it was time to get him moving independently. I will not lie about the hard work, but at this point ds had enough skills and maturity in place.

 

As far as dictation, I only did it for VERY directed practice related to spelling and writing fluency. And only sentences at that (and I would repeat anything he forgot). Likewise, copywork was in the same boat.

 

Now, at 12 ds is writing beautiful 5 paragraph essays-- wonderfully and independently. I am sooooo proud of him. He is also able to all his short answer written response to his ASL homework (usually about a paragraph in response to text). Honestly, when ds 8 I never thought I would see this day. Also, so you know, ds is heavily supported by assistive technology through out his writing.

 

[Mavis Beacon--as far as teaching typing. The early level is not timed..it just teaches the keys. It is the upper levels that are timed. (Just so you know). ]

[Guest]

Ooo, puppets sound fun! I got a book on felt puppets to make for my ds, but the glues I've tried don't work right. :(

 

Hot glue gun :).

 

 

 

Make sure you have a good one though :tongue_smilie:!

 

 

[FairProspects]

We did a lot of playing in the Peggy Kaye book and keeping things very light and fun in 3rd grade. Every once in a while ds was inspired to do some writing on his own for a project he was interested in, otherwise, I made no requirement of him. I mostly had ds orally narrating and summarizing stories to me, which I sometimes typed for him. We also did a lot of reading and talking about books (in those days I was reading him about 500 pages/ week). We would wonder about what would happen next, talk about the characters, talk about plot, setting, theme, etc... We would compare and contrast, critique, explain, identify favorite parts, etc... But write, no.

 

As far as dictation, I only did it for VERY directed practice related to spelling and writing fluency. And only sentences at that (and I would repeat anything he forgot). Likewise, copywork was in the same boat.

 

This sounds very similar to what I plan to do going forward. Hopefully, my results will be as good as yours down the road. Thanks for chiming in!

[PeterPan]

Hot glue gun :).

 

 

Make sure you have a good one though :tongue_smilie:!

 

 

Well cool, hadn't thought of that! I must have segregated it in my mind, because I used a hot glue gun for the flannelgraph books I assembled. :lol:

[Guest]

Well cool, hadn't thought of that! I must have segregated it in my mind, because I used a hot glue gun for the flannelgraph books I assembled. :lol:

 

Umm... aren't you taking (or have taken) photography? I would be really interested to see your flannelgraph books. Or are you opposed to posting pics on forums? I can understand if that's the case.

[RamonaQ]

This sounds very similar to what I plan to do going forward. Hopefully, my results will be as good as yours down the road. Thanks for chiming in!

 

Thank you. I know you will have great results, too. Enjoy your kiddo's intellect.

 

I still look back at that time of constantly reading and talking about books as one of my happiest times homeschooling. I still say that my most favorite person to talk books with is my ds....I just love his insight and hearing how he thinks.

 

Life is very different now as we approach teenager-hood, and I absolutely now cherish, and deeply rely on, those good memories. :tongue_smilie: