Are you a religious liberal? Please talk to me.

[jplain]

But if they try to tackle something more traditional, it can be nigh on painful to listen to.

Painful, yes! :lol: I thought my church was the only one.

 

At ours the director bites off way more than the choir can chew, and it makes me feel so bad for them!

It also makes me much less likely to join the choir myself. :tongue_smilie:

[laundrycrisis]

When I was not feeling any connection in a UU church, I switched to a Unity church. Although I no longer attend any church, I still enjoy reading Unity stuff. I felt fed and connected there.

 

http://www.unity.org/

 

Another idea - we attend a co-op that meets in a Church of the Brethren. I had never heard of this denomination but I am enjoying being in their building each week.

 

http://www.brethren.org/

[Negin]

nm

Edited February 13, 2012 by Negin in Grenada

[Jenny in Florida]

When I was not feeling any connection in a UU church, I switched to a Unity church. Although I no longer attend any church, I still enjoy reading Unity stuff. I felt fed and connected there.

 

http://www.unity.org/

 

Another idea - we attend a co-op that meets in a Church of the Brethren. I had never heard of this denomination but I am enjoying being in their building each week.

 

http://www.brethren.org/

 

The local Unity church is next on my to-visit list. I'm hoping to go this Sunday.

[KarenNC]

The local Unity church is next on my to-visit list. I'm hoping to go this Sunday.

 

I'll be interested to hear how you like it. We did a homeschool group field trip to our local Unity church last year (part of a series I've been leading---we've been to a couple of mosques, the Hindu Center, the Quakers, Greek Orthodox, UU, Reform synagogue, etc). I got the impression that Unity tends to be a lot more inwardly- and spiritually -focused rather than outwardly- and action-focused, at least in terms of active social justice. What I heard was more about prayer for others than things like soup kitchens, etc. I definitely got the impression that, where UU's are about what you do rather than what you believe, Unity is more the reverse. The minister did say that they were recently working on becoming a bit more physically involved in social justice issues. I'm curious as to whether that's accurate of the denomination as a whole or more reflective of the particular congregation we visited. I definitely didn't get the impression that they would be unwelcoming to LGBT or other groups.

Edited February 13, 2012 by KarenNC

[Jenny in Florida]

I'll be interested to hear how you like it. We did a homeschool group field trip to our local Unity church last year (part of a series I've been leading---we've been to a couple of mosques, the Hindu Center, the Quakers, Greek Orthodox, UU, Reform synagogue, etc). I got the impression that Unity tends to be a lot more inwardly-focused rather than outwardly-focused, at least in terms of active social justice. What I heard was more about prayer for others than things like soup kitchens, etc. The minister did say that they were recently working on spreading that focus outward a bit more. I'm curious as to whether that's accurate of the denomination as a whole or more reflective of the particular congregation we visited.

 

We'll see what it looks like in person, but the website of the local Unity church shows they have active service teams for community outreach (and they list feeding the homeless as one of their activities) as well as environmental, peace and diversity concerns.

 

I'll let you know after I visit.

[KarenNC]

Painful, yes! :lol: I thought my church was the only one.

 

At ours the director bites off way more than the choir can chew, and it makes me feel so bad for them!

It also makes me much less likely to join the choir myself. :tongue_smilie:

 

I think it may be a combination of many factors, in terms of choral music. I don't see it as big an issue with instrumental, as there are often very talented individual musicians in a church:

1) musical tradition: The best music comes from groups with a long, rich choral heritage, something I don't see in UU because the focus of the music seems to be more on the words than the music. In some cases, the same baggage that a lot of folks have with using the Bible or Christian references applies to the music they associated with the churches they left. They associate the great music with patriarchal oppression, religious intolerance, etc or it's seen as antiquated (says the medievalist who loves Gregorian chant ;)--don't get me started on some of the musical choices made by groups of all denominations!). Anything that smacks of "ritual" in a Christian sense is not as welcome. A lot come from groups without a huge tradition of great traditional congregational singing as well.

 

2) size of congregation: The smaller the congregation, usually the smaller the pool of singers with actual ability and the smaller the funding to do something about that. This affected the Presbyterian Church where I grew up (maybe 20-30 families)---the choral singing was truly awful (and I speak as one who was a member of the choir ;)). In the larger Protestant churches I've been a member of, they often had a certain portion of hired singers in the choir to get the sound they wanted. Most of the UU churches I know are not large. I've heard there are some really large UU churches that have great music programs, though.

 

3) expectation of commitment: Frankly, in my experience, most UUs in general haven't been interested in being tied down to the kind of sustained commitment a great music program requires. They value their flexibility and independence way too much to commit to the hours of practice, being there every Sunday, etc. This isn't to say UU's can't commit or that some don't, just that the phrase "herding cats" is not infrequently heard;). I know it's a constant struggle for our music director to get folks to show up to sing regularly at a service, much less commit to several hours of weekly practice as was expected by the Episcopal choir we were part of.

 

4) commitment to including all comers: At least in the ones where I have been (and this is usually true of any smaller congregations regardless of denomination), the choir is committed to including anyone who wants to sing. No auditions, no requirement that you can read music, etc. They're just happy for warm bodies. This can be compensated for if you have a commitment to practice or money to hire section leaders, but that's usually not the case.

 

5) overreaching or poor fit of music: The fabulous Episcopal choir was horrible at singing gospel as they were all used to singing classical, opera, etc. The sound was all wrong. Our UU music director decided we could put on a performance of "Cats"---enough said.:D

[Jenny in Florida]

I think it may be a combination of many factors, in terms of choral music. I don't see it as big an issue with instrumental, as there are often very talented individual musicians in a church:

1) musical tradition: The best music comes from groups with a long, rich choral heritage, something I don't see in UU because the focus of the music seems to be more on the words than the music. In some cases, the same baggage that a lot of folks have with using the Bible or Christian references applies to the music they associated with the churches they left. They associate the great music with patriarchal oppression, religious intolerance, etc or it's seen as antiquated (says the medievalist who loves Gregorian chant ;)--don't get me started on some of the musical choices made by groups of all denominations!). Anything that smacks of "ritual" in a Christian sense is not as welcome. A lot come from groups without a huge tradition of great traditional congregational singing as well.

 

2) size of congregation: The smaller the congregation, usually the smaller the pool of singers with actual ability and the smaller the funding to do something about that. This affected the Presbyterian Church where I grew up (maybe 20-30 families)---the choral singing was truly awful (and I speak as one who was a member of the choir ;)). In the larger Protestant churches I've been a member of, they often had a certain portion of hired singers in the choir to get the sound they wanted. Most of the UU churches I know are not large. I've heard there are some really large UU churches that have great music programs, though.

 

3) expectation of commitment: Frankly, in my experience, most UUs in general haven't been interested in being tied down to the kind of sustained commitment a great music program requires. They value their flexibility and independence way too much to commit to the hours of practice, being there every Sunday, etc. This isn't to say UU's can't commit or that some don't, just that the phrase "herding cats" is not infrequently heard;). I know it's a constant struggle for our music director to get folks to show up to sing regularly at a service, much less commit to several hours of weekly practice as was expected by the Episcopal choir we were part of.

 

4) commitment to including all comers: At least in the ones where I have been (and this is usually true of any smaller congregations regardless of denomination), the choir is committed to including anyone who wants to sing. No auditions, no requirement that you can read music, etc. They're just happy for warm bodies. This can be compensated for if you have a commitment to practice or money to hire section leaders, but that's usually not the case.

 

5) overreaching or poor fit of music: The fabulous Episcopal choir was horrible at singing gospel as they were all used to singing classical, opera, etc. The sound was all wrong. Our UU music director decided we could put on a performance of "Cats"---enough said.:D

 

I suspect you're right on several of these points.

 

My kids have both sung with choirs hosted by the local Episcopal cathedral. I'm consistently impressed with the amount of training those choiristers get. They are generally considered the best choirs in town and are in demand for all kinds of events (weddings, conferences, etc.). They get paid rather impressive amounts for these gigs, which is why the annual tuition stays reasonable. Otherwise, I shudder to imagine how much this would cost.

 

Every time the choirs sing for a service, I attend. It's just mind blowing to me how great the whole congregation sounds when they sing! But it seems that these folks grow up singing. And it doesn't hurt that the cathedral has a full-time music director and assistant, as well as an additional choir director. Until this recession hit them, there were also two paid accompanists, one full time and one part time.

 

Our mid-sized UU church has only a part-time music director who does everything that isn't covered by volunteers.

 

And I have a friend who is a paid section leader in a Catholic choir. Until I met her, I had no idea churches did that sort of thing.

 

With that said, last time we were in NYC, we went to a service at All Souls. Their choir and musicians were wonderful! So, it seems UUs "can" sing, at least sometimes.

[Spy Car]

The members of the small choir at our Episcopal church all have voices like angels, and they stick to the classical hymnal (which delights the traditionalist side of my nature). If I want to hear "gospel" I can visit West Angeles or the First AME, where they bring down the house. Instead we hear a beautiful old pipe-organ and some Latin and English classics.

 

Ours is relaxed High Church with an Anglo-Catholic bent.

 

Father Michael never discusses golf. It is always football :D

 

Bill

[Farrar]

I think that's a pretty good assessment of the musical issues. My UU church doesn't face all of them (we have a pretty big congregation and there are some really committed people in the choir) but others... yep. And that's a good point about other churches having trouble singing different kinds of music - I've been to traditional Protestant churches as they tried to tackle a gospel song or two before and it was also a bit painful - but those were things our UU choir could have nailed.

 

Sometimes I feel like no church will ever live up to the church I grew up in. The music was traditional, but the choir director had been to Africa on a number of trips and had brought a sense of international music to the church - they weren't afraid to break out and try new things or bring in outside musicians as well. Sigh. They also had a litmus test for songs which many churches should adopt - they would have the main minister, who couldn't sing well, try to sing new songs they were considering putting in the service. If it was a complete disaster, they'd often reject them. Much less painful for all the less accomplished singers in the pews.

[KarenNC]

They also had a litmus test for songs which many churches should adopt - they would have the main minister, who couldn't sing well, try to sing new songs they were considering putting in the service. If it was a complete disaster, they'd often reject them. Much less painful for all the less accomplished singers in the pews.

 

What a fabulous idea!

[Rivka]

This is the church my friends told me about. The website looks great. I don't know how I'd get there, though; the service is at 12, and our UU service is 11-12:30, and we only have the one car. Awkward timing.

 

http://sixeightucc.org/

[Mama_Rana]

This is the church my friends told me about. The website looks great. I don't know how I'd get there, though; the service is at 12, and our UU service is 11-12:30, and we only have the one car. Awkward timing.

 

http://sixeightucc.org/

It sounds really neat! I hope you find a way to check them out in person.

[enviromommy]

The members of the small choir at our Episcopal church all have voices like angels, and they stick to the classical hymnal (which delights the traditionalist side of my nature). If I want to hear "gospel" I can visit West Angeles or the First AME, where they bring down the house. Instead we hear a beautiful old pipe-organ and some Latin and English classics.

 

Ours is relaxed High Church with an Anglo-Catholic bent.

 

Father Michael never discusses golf. It is always football :D

 

Bill

 

Bill, you are a member of a church? I'm really surprised!

[CyndiLJ]

I am a UCCer after years of not attending church because I couldn't work within the theological framework most Christian churches insisted I needed to use. I missed church, I missed community, but simply couldn't abide by some of what was being taught/preached. Within the UCC I found my home, a place where I was free to question, where others of any other belief system were welcomed and allowed to respectfully explore and discuss, a place where I didn't have to check my brain at the door. I was fierce about wanting a faith community open to LGBT folks.

 

All UCC congregations are not the same, some are conservative leaning, but I would venture to say the majority are not. We belong to a very small congregation, and our kids and 3 or 4 others who are younger are it...no one else...so we don't have a real youth group. But we get something else out of it, the older folks have embraced our family in ways I never would have dreamed of. Noe less than 10 have taught our kids one subject or another or shared their hobbies, etc. with them. In a congregation of 60 members, that's a huge percentage who have been intimately involved with our kids. Since we have no grandparents living nearby, and many of our church members have no grandchildren within close proximity, a need is being filled on both sides. A complete blessing!

 

I understand your need for more fulfillment, and your dilemma over whether it is your church...your denomination...or you that is causing that lack of fulfillment. There are pieces missing even at our wonderful church. We can be so brainy in our approach to faith that the heart piece is missing sometimes. There is only one other mom there with whom I can be friends who is at the same stage with her kids and has the same theological understanding. Sometimes it is too green and too organic for my tastes. But I have worked at trying to meet those needs elsewhere, sometimes more successfully than others. I guess it took me awhile to see that if the majority of what was at church worked for me, I would likely not find another place that eventually wouldn't reveal it's flaws to me and leave me feeling bereft in other ways.

 

I am so pleased and surprised to find more liberal Christian/UU homeschoolers here! Where are you in MY community? I NEED you! Wondering if perhaps a sub group might be formed where we could discuss faith matters, etc. knowing we all have some similar experiences in common with homeschooling to build on. Maybe we could do a book study together, or discuss issues together and if that might help not fill a need it seems more than you have here on this thread. Just an idea...

 

Cindy

Montrose, CO

[Rivka]

I am so pleased and surprised to find more liberal Christian/UU homeschoolers here! Where are you in MY community? I NEED you! Wondering if perhaps a sub group might be formed where we could discuss faith matters, etc. knowing we all have some similar experiences in common with homeschooling to build on. Maybe we could do a book study together, or discuss issues together and if that might help not fill a need it seems more than you have here on this thread. Just an idea...

 

That sounds like a great idea. The forums have a "social group" feature that seems like it would work well for this. Anyone else interested?

[Spy Car]

Bill, you are a member of a church? I'm really surprised!

 

No, I'm not a member. But we do have a lovely Episcopal around the corner. My wife went to this church as a girl and my family has roots in the Anglican Church. We've had memorial services for family in this church, attend almost every Christmas Eve and occasionally during the year. I've known the past and current rectors. My son and I like play on the grounds under the old oak tree and remember his departed grandparents.

 

I like this church. I like the social message, the music is sublime and while I'm not religious I do think of this church as as close to a spiritual home as I've got (excluding the shul ;) :D).

 

Bill (complicated :tongue_smilie:)