What does this sound like?

[MyLittleBears]

I have an eleven year old who I was told had ADD and dyslexia (diagnosis through public school via the recommendation of the private school). We went a pediatric neurologist and got the EEG, nothing. Mixed reviews by the ps about how bright he was but no info of any real use. One teacher mentioned Aspergers but based on what I've read, he is more inclined to be gifted rather that Aspergers as he does have the obsessives with particular subjects. He has good social skills and loves humor.

I was told he need reading help. At the time he was at end of 2nd grade and not reading at grade level and have trouble with math.(Saxon math was just about the worst program for him!) His reading level shot up by 3 years in the first 3 mos of homeschooling! I was super excited.

 

 

Anyway, now I find he has a lot of trouble verbalizing what he want to express. We have been doing WWE for a couple of years and I keep hoping each year we will see some progress. He still has trouble summarizing. It is utterly PAINFUL.It is a little bit better when he writes the summary rather than say it orally but not by much. I am not sure what to do should we just drop WWE or shoud I go back to the beginning?

 

Also, he is so slow in completing his schoolwork. I feel as if we are waiting an eternity for him to finish math and grammar. I am at my wits end.:crying: I don't know how to help him. A am at the point where really want to quit homeschooling him, but I know my school system will not teach him the way he learns. Can you offer advice? Comfortings words? I am desparate!

Edited January 30, 2012 by MyLittleBears

[Tokyomarie]

If you haven't had any testing since 2nd grade, now would be a good time to get some done. It can help you pinpoint some of the some of the current language weaknesses which hinder his progress. Since he has a diagnosis of dyslexia and he seems to have some difficulty with oral expressive language, I would suggest looking for a SLP (speech/language pathologist) who specializes in dyslexia. This person can evaluate him on all four strands of language -listening, speaking, reading, and writing. Trying to get this kind of eval through the school system is likely to be a "no go." You'll likely need to do it privately. The cost will be considerably less than getting a full neuropsychological evaluation, however, but will be more targeted to the pieces of the equation you might need most. If the SLP finds issues that should be further explored, you can be referred on for a full workup.

 

This is a great new website on the topic of dyslexia you might want to check out: Dyslexia Help.

 

Executive function difficulties (things like planning, organizing, initiating, etc) can interfere with writing as well. Is your son on medication for ADD?

 

I understand your pain! My son is also dyslexic & has difficulty with writing. I tried and tried on my own to help him develop skills and finally gave in when he was 15yo & got him evaluated. It was the best thing we ever did and I wish we hadn't waited so long! We started with the neuropsych eval because we had several concerns. We actually are now planning to do a full language eval with a SLP who works with children, adolescents, and college students with dyslexia.

[MyLittleBears]

Wow. What an excellent link. It actually answers some of my questions. Thanks Marie.

[Heathermomster]

I have an eleven year old who I was told had ADD and dyslexia (diagnosis through public school via the recommendation of the private school). We went a pediatric neurologist and got the EEG, nothing. Mixed reviews by the ps about how bright he was but no info of any real use.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think I understand your son's testing. You wrote "EEG". Do you mean an electroencephalogram (EEG) test that measures and records the electrical activity of the brain? If so, this seems very strange to me, but I'm not a Dr.

 

To get a proper diagnosis, you need to call around and find a qualified, PhD Neuropsychologist, that likes children and has experience testing children. Testing typically takes two days. The Dr. will sit down and interview you and your spouse. You will need to take report cards and the test results from all previous evaluations. For an ADD/ADHD assessment, questionnaires are provided to all people who deal directly with your child. This testing is private, and the Dr. assigns a numerical score based upon the answers provided by you, your spouse, and your child's teachers. Generally, tests are performed such as the WISC-IV for IQ assessment. Other tests are performed that can determine dyslexia, dyscalculia, and dysgraphia. Your child's reactions and emotional state are observed during testing. All information garnered is reviewed and quantified to provide an overall assessment and possible diagnosis for your child. Parents are provided the results of all testing with a written report and suggested accommodations. I seriously doubt the PS did this type of testing for your child. I strongly suggest you consider having this type of testing done with your child.

 

If you have not done so, consider teaching your child to type. Typing helped my son tremendously.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Heathermomster

[MyLittleBears]

Yes, they tested they attached electrodes to his head and supposedly this tested electrical activity. This was done after have him stay up for most of the night. The test was said to be normal and the next course of action was meds for ADD:confused: without much explaination. It was like pulling teeth.

 

Needless to say, I was not convinced any my dh said "no way" to meds. This is when we pulled him from school and I guess we gave up on testing due to the bad experience. He has improved greatly at home but I still has a lot of difficulty with expression (even verbal). I did not know that this is also part of dyslexia. He does not have as much trouble with math thanks to CLE. But I do notice he does have a lot of trouble w/handwriting so we are starting typing instructor for kids this week. Hopefully it will help him.

 

I appreciate your imput! It helps having a support system :001_smile:

Edited January 30, 2012 by MyLittleBears

[Tokyomarie]

My son started learning to type in 4th or 5th grade. By the end of 5th grade he was keyboarding all of his written composition. That didn't take away the difficulty with formulating his thoughts to express himself, but it did bypass the difficulty with handwriting due to trouble with letter formation & muscle cramping in his hand. He also started to use spell-check which helped some of the spelling issues.

[Tiramisu]

Have you ever had a CAP evaluation? It couldn't hurt.

[MomatHWTK]

The EEG we had was to check for seizure activity under similar circumstances. I think it's basically a "rule out the possibilities" issue. ADD can cause difficulties with processing information, your child may be very bright but unable to output that information. Aspergers can manifest with expressiveness issues. My DS was very outgoing, loved (and still does) people, but couldn't always "get" what they meant. He has difficulty expressing what he is feeling and controlling his reactions to stimuli.

 

We saw a regular child therapist, she has a PhD but isn't a phychiatrist. She did testing for basic IQ and various other conditions, including the ADHD. Even this basic testing will give you some information like whether there are specific areas of difficulty. Then you can choose whether to pursue further testing. We went through a private practice that we were referred to by our pediatrician and DS sees a phychiatrist in the same practice for decisions regarding medications.

 

 

These tests may give you some information:

Note- the bipolar test also asks questions related to ADHD in order to rule it out. The scoring is a little complicated, but it might help you.

 

Vanderbilt Assessment Tool:

http://www.cap4kids.org/new_york_city/download/ADHDParent.pdf

Scoring: http://www.nichq.org/toolkits_publications/complete_adhd/07Scoring%20Instructions.pdf

Edited January 30, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[PeterPan]

If you get a new neuropsychologist eval, it's going to explain a LOT of what you're seeing there. Some of that taking so long on the work can be just plain inattention (which admittedly meds can help), and some of it can be low processing speed. It's really helpful for you, as the teacher, to know what's going on and why, because you can modify. For instance, if it's attention, you can give him sensory input to help him focus, consider caffeine or other supplements (since you're opposed to meds), etc. I'll give my dd fidget toys while we work. Some people do the ball chairs, etc. We'll take sensory breaks.

 

But if it's processing speed (which it probably also is), I don't know how much that can go up. There's *some* evidence that video games (Wii, whatever) can improve processing speed. I DON'T know if it carries over. We're not a violent game family, but I figured there was some justification there to try a Wii with lower rated games (family, e, that sort of thing) and see if it might help over time. It has also changed our dynamic by giving word to it and just plain giving me an explanation. What looks like the words coming out can sometimes be the words needing 3 times as long as you think to come out.

 

When did he learn to talk? Sometimes what you're actually seeing is remnants of apraxia (motor control problems, late talking).

 

On the typing, yes, highly encourage. I finally switched my dd over to Mavis Beacon using the Dvorak keyboard layout and have had MUCH better success. If your ds actually has the issues with crossing the midline, the Dvorak layout can help immensely. It's a simple toggle on the mac, so I put her user account with that layout and keep a regular US layout for my user account. You should be able to figure out a way on a Windows computer. For us it literally doubled her speed.

 

You also, just as a matter of course, ought to get his eyes checked. You would want a developmental optometrist. Many kids with these problems also have eye problems going on. Or they have auditory like Kelli mentioned. Or they have both. It's just the sort of thing you eliminate so you don't sit there banging your head against a wall. A developmental optometrist (not a regular one) can screen for extra things (convergence, etc.) when they do their regular exam, so it's just an easy thing to check and scratch off your list.

 

But seriously, get the neuropsych eval.

 

PS. The WWE problem is working memory. Get the neuropsych eval. There are things you can be working on for this (working memory, executive function, etc.), that will carry over to his school work. If you use schoolwork to do that, it just leaves him frustrated and hating it. You can pull out the skills and work on them separately with the Linguisystems workbooks, activities from an SLP, etc., and then come BACK to WWE when it's more within reach. At this age he ought to be doing something with more structure anyway.

Edited January 31, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[MyLittleBears]

I will definately look into getting the neuropsych evaluation. He has repeatedly told me he that it is really hard for him to summarize anything. I thought working on the skills step by step using WWE would help. He does do dication well, but the summaries are extremely difficult for him. I guess I thought it would come with maturity, but based on today's work I seems almost as if we're working backwards. It was a little bit better when I told him to summarize on paper rather than verbally. I has gotten to the point where I do not know how to help him because I have no idea what I am dealing with. He does have high astigmatizm and has needed glasses since the age of 3 and maybe even two. He was not a late talker but he did mix up consonats within words. For example he would say Po pie juice for aPPle juice. He had speech therapy in school and overcame the childhood verbal problems such as not saying the TH sound,etc. He is also not as coordinated as he could be but does not shy away from sports.

 

He is extremely intellegent but I feel as if it's sort of trapped inside. His speed is extremely slow in all his schoolwork. I don' know if he is distracted or just thinking things through.

 

Thank you for all your responses. It is helping me to sort of accept things as they are.:tongue_smilie:

 

Are the Linguisystem workbooks something given by a therapist?

Edited January 31, 2012 by MyLittleBears

[Heathermomster]

I just remembered something and wanted to share. I recently read the book The Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides. The authors specifically recommend the following resources for writing: From Talking to Writing: Strategies for Scaffolding Expository Expression by Jennings and Haynes, Writing Skills 1 & 2 by King, and Step up to Writing. Never tried these myself, though they may be worth a look.

 

DS also has used a program called Dragon Speak Naturally. DS speaks into a microphone, and his words appear as text in a word processor. We purchased our version of the software for 50% off at a local office supply store.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

No, you can buy them yourself. Just google linguisystems and find their executive function workbooks.

 

On the speech, it is possible for it to have been apraxia and have it be mild and just get glossed as an articulation disorder. Praxis, issues with motor control, can affect any part of the body. So when you get these kids who just aren't very coordinated (don't run well, etc.), it can be mild praxis. OTs evaluate for that and can also look at sensory stuff that can affect attention.

 

There can be a number of reasons it's hard for him to summarize. I don't even know all of them, but I'll toss out a few. Some kids don't *visualize* as they listen or read. Can he close his eyes and make a mental picture as he listens? My dd never visualized, but it was because she had extremely poor visual processing. Kids with astigmatism are often the ones that need VT (not always, not exclusively, just a situation where it can happen). I'm not sure why that is. Anyways, it is something to get checked. A regular optometrist doesn't check the same things a developmental optometrist checks. So then you just have working memory (brain RAM) and the ability to hold sequences and details. If you give him a toy and try digit spans on him with letters or numbers, you'll see it come out, and the patterns of his errors might be similar to what you get when you're doing dictation.

 

Also, when you do dictation you're forcing ALL the systems to work. For instance, the neuropsych pointed out that my dd still doesn't have the motor control patterns for her writing down to automaticity. So as long as they're having to THINK how to form their letters, it's eating up their working memory (RAM). ADHD (ADD is no longer the label, it's ADHD inattentive) by definition includes working memory and executive function issues. Basically search the boards for EF and apply everything you find, because it all applies to you. Anyways, when you try to do dictation, he has to remember the content (working memory), and then try to get it out. Whether he writes or says it, he's still using motor control. Add to that working memory for the spelling, etc. It's just a log jam for them.

 

Have you read any of Michele's posts about the dramatic changes she made after the np evals for her boys? It wasn't even that they were huge changes, but several little changes throughout the day that changed the dynamic, especially for her oldest ADHD boy. You might spend an evening and read her posts on the board. one l michele is her board name.

[PeterPan]

DS also has used a program called Dragon Speak Naturally. DS speaks into a microphone, and his words appear as text in a word processor. We purchased our version of the software for 50% off at a local office supply store.

 

Hey Heather, have you seen my mention of the Dvorak keyboard layout? I really despaired of my dd ever becoming a proficient typist, because the more we worked, the more she shifted toward pecking. She resisted the change, but now she thanks me. Might be something to look at. Mostly the fingers stay on the middle row, and there aren't all the midline crosses. I seldom see it mentioned here, but the change for us has been HUGE.

[FairProspects]

Also, when you do dictation you're forcing ALL the systems to work. For instance, the neuropsych pointed out that my dd still doesn't have the motor control patterns for her writing down to automaticity. So as long as they're having to THINK how to form their letters, it's eating up their working memory (RAM). Anyways, when you try to do dictation, he has to remember the content (working memory), and then try to get it out. Whether he writes or says it, he's still using motor control. Add to that working memory for the spelling, etc. It's just a log jam for them.

 

 

I was just realizing today that nearly every meltdown ds has is during the dictation part of spelling. I know this is what is going on with him as well, but I'm not sure how to help him over the hump as I think the dictation he is doing is really important.

[PeterPan]

I was just realizing today that nearly every meltdown ds has is during the dictation part of spelling. I know this is what is going on with him as well, but I'm not sure how to help him over the hump as I think the dictation he is doing is really important.

 

Well you're making me really sad here, because it seems like I've spent the evening reading about kids struggling, kids grappling with dying, etc. If it's too hard, change the tack. He shouldn't be frustrated. You can make an awful lot of progress and get to where you need to be by gently doing it a different way. So you're using AAS? We did that after VT. Remind me because I can't remember. You did VT with him? Don't need it? Anyways, I don't know how effective AAS would have been with my dd if I had done it from the beginning. I like certain aspects of it (the manipulatives, the well-organized review). Love that stuff. Where exactly is he tripping up? See what you might do is go to Staples and get an EASY button. Seriously, I love that button. Get the easy button, and when he doesn't know the word, let him whack the button. Or flip it and make your dictation a teach effort, where you ask him after every word whether he knows it (this is what I had to do), help him on the words he doesn't know (because of course the goal is to see it only CORRECTLY written), and then let him hit the EASY button with satisfaction. Or give him an m&m every time he asks. You change the dynamic, to where it's good to ask, ok to ask.

 

Or it might be that he has something holding him back you need to work on first. (sensory, wrong time of day, after too much other work, handwriting still eating up his RAM, whatever) Or it might be that AAS isn't actually get him the retention he needs to have it all come together easily. Honestly, when my dd got to a stage where she really started to feel dumb and frustrated about spelling, we went over to the Calvert spelling cds. Now they're online, but then they were on cd. It was a great change for us, because the thing was EVER PATIENT and gave her stuff she COULD do. So you back up and get him a level and something he CAN do. Success breeds success.

 

I don't know. It's always a sleuthing job to figure out what is afflicting your particular child and why there's a glitch. I don't think anything should be left as painful but necessary at this age. I think when it's painful, we need to figure out a better way or what the roadblock is.

[Crimson Wife]

I was just realizing today that nearly every meltdown ds has is during the dictation part of spelling. I know this is what is going on with him as well, but I'm not sure how to help him over the hump as I think the dictation he is doing is really important.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

Boy, do I hear ya on the struggles with dictation. It's got the two biggest problem areas for my oldest DD- penmanship and auditory sequencing. :banghead:

[Heathermomster]

Hey Heather, have you seen my mention of the Dvorak keyboard layout? I really despaired of my dd ever becoming a proficient typist, because the more we worked, the more she shifted toward pecking. She resisted the change, but now she thanks me. Might be something to look at. Mostly the fingers stay on the middle row, and there aren't all the midline crosses. I seldom see it mentioned here, but the change for us has been HUGE.

 

Congratulations for discovering an effective way to teach typing. I've heard about the Dvorak layout, but have never looked into that. My son types on a QWERTY at about 40WPM. I taught him at home for 5th grade, and he took typing as an elective over the Fall quarter. I'm curious to know how the Dvorak keyboard works with laptops. Do you require a special laptop? DS uses a Dana and Neo AlphaSmart for portable word processing.

[MyLittleBears]

Thank you. I will look up those resources.

 

I just remembered something and wanted to share. I recently read the book the Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides. The authors specifically recommend the following resources for writing: From Talking to Writing: Strategies for Scaffolding Expository Expression by Jennings and Haynes, Writing Skills 1 & 2 by King, and Step up to Writing. Never tried these myself, though they may be worth a look.

 

DS also has used a program called Dragon Speak Naturally. DS speaks into a microphone, and his words appear as text in a word processor. We purchased our version of the software for 50% off at a local office supply store.

[MyLittleBears]

No, you can buy them yourself. Just google linguisystems and find their executive function workbooks.

 

On the speech, it is possible for it to have been apraxia and have it be mild and just get glossed as an articulation disorder. Praxis, issues with motor control, can affect any part of the body. So when you get these kids who just aren't very coordinated (don't run well, etc.), it can be mild praxis. OTs evaluate for that and can also look at sensory stuff that can affect attention.

 

There can be a number of reasons it's hard for him to summarize. I don't even know all of them, but I'll toss out a few. Some kids don't *visualize* as they listen or read. Can he close his eyes and make a mental picture as he listens? My dd never visualized, but it was because she had extremely poor visual processing. Kids with astigmatism are often the ones that need VT (not always, not exclusively, just a situation where it can happen). I'm not sure why that is. Anyways, it is something to get checked. A regular optometrist doesn't check the same things a developmental optometrist checks. So then you just have working memory (brain RAM) and the ability to hold sequences and details. If you give him a toy and try digit spans on him with letters or numbers, you'll see it come out, and the patterns of his errors might be similar to what you get when you're doing dictation.

 

Also, when you do dictation you're forcing ALL the systems to work. For instance, the neuropsych pointed out that my dd still doesn't have the motor control patterns for her writing down to automaticity. So as long as they're having to THINK how to form their letters, it's eating up their working memory (RAM). ADHD (ADD is no longer the label, it's ADHD inattentive) by definition includes working memory and executive function issues. Basically search the boards for EF and apply everything you find, because it all applies to you. Anyways, when you try to do dictation, he has to remember the content (working memory), and then try to get it out. Whether he writes or says it, he's still using motor control. Add to that working memory for the spelling, etc. It's just a log jam for them.

 

Have you read any of Michele's posts about the dramatic changes she made after the np evals for her boys? It wasn't even that they were huge changes, but several little changes throughout the day that changed the dynamic, especially for her oldest ADHD boy. You might spend an evening and read her posts on the board. one l michele is her board name.

 

Interesting. I am gleaning as much as I can from you all and I will be calling my pediatriction for a rec. today.

I do notice he does comprehends what he reads. He has said, "I know what it said, mom, but I just can't get the words out." I can see him think it out in his head but it just sever comes to the surface. He still gives me small details from the passage he reads, rather than the main idea. It is almost as if he cannot put it into a logical order in his head before it comes out. His everyday speech is this way also. Sometimes he uses (and has since he was little), sounds, like shooting sounds to describe something. It seems as if he thinks in pictures. He is extremely visual. As far as motor coordination, his running is very akward. He runs with a slight tilt to his head and his arms phail a bit. I spoke to my pediatric opthamologist about going to a developmental optometrist and she basically led me to believe it was all a non-professinal money making scheme. :confused: I think it's because they are not MDs.

 

Anyway, off to read michelle's posts.

Edited January 31, 2012 by MyLittleBears

[Crimson Wife]

I spoke to my pediatric opthamologist about going to a developmental optometrist and she basically led me to believe it was all a non-professinal money making scheme. :confused: I think it's because they are not MDs.

 

Yep, it's a turf war.

 

I wore an eye patch as a kid to treat amblyopia. A few years ago, I was having an eye exam, when the O.D. said, "I bet you're clumsy and a not a very good driver." He said that the reason for those is because my eyes don't team together as well as they should. He said at this point, VT probably wouldn't help me enough to make it worth the cost, but had it been done when I was little it would've really helped. He said that if any of my kids ever needed to wear a patch to make sure to get a VT eval after they were finished.

 

Fast forward to now, and 2nd child is being patched. At our appt. a couple weeks ago, I asked our ped. ophthalmologist if there were any developmental optometrists whom she recommends for VT. I might as well have asked her if she knew any good witch doctors :rolleyes: