Starting Late with Classical Education?

[faiths13]

I just found this forum a couple of months ago, and just got my hands on TWTM book yesterday (loving it so far btw). My oldest sons turn 13 & 11 this month and are in 5 & 7th grades. We are getting a very late start to classical education. Im not sure how that will end up working out. For starters my ds's were in public school up until a year and a half ago. So really they are behind in alot of things as far as TWTM schedule. Secondly, I have been reading some classics to them such as Sleepy Hollow, The Hobbit, EAP The Raven - they can barely understand alot of the words in these books. These are things I didnt read until hs myself. I did have them take all the words they didnt know out of the first paragraph from Sleepy Hollow (alot) and write down definitions. But at that rate of speed we will never get the book read. Do I just keep reading to them anyway because exposing it to them is good and over time they will come to understand it better? Or do I just go painfully slow through different books? I was hoping they could read some of the books I go on their own, but they aren't used to 19th century writing styles. They both read very well.

 

Anyway, I feel very inspired by what I have read so far in TWTM, but worried that we are starting so late. My sons are not at the level of work expected by TWTM and I dont know what to do. Sugesstions?

[Penguin]

Maybe you could, for the time being, dial back to an abridged or rewritten version of the classics.

 

I will be using Classic Starts (Sterling Publishing) this year for my 11 year old son. It does not appear that The Legend of Sleepy Hollow is one of their titles, but there are oodles of others.

 

We have also used Great Illustrated Classics and Sleepy Hollow is one of their titles.

[faiths13]

They have read a bunch of 'condensed' classics and that was fine - they got a good feel for the story, but I dont necessarily agree with that. I do want them to understand the story though. They read the condensed classic of The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, and that's why I thought it would be fun to read the 'real' version.

[Kalmia]

I don't think it is necessary to understand every word to enjoy a classic work. Have them look up words that impede their understanding of the plot, but otherwise let them read. If every chapter is a long vocabulary exercise they will soon come to dread the experience of reading older works.

 

Michael Clay Thompson's Caesar's English I and Caesar's English II from Royal Fireworks Press are vocabulary programs that focus on the most common words in classic literature. You might find them helpful.

[sewpeaceful]

Hello. Welcome to the boards and homeschooling. :)

 

While I started my oldest "late" on the classical cycle (3rd v 1st) and I recognize your kids are older, SWB's suggestions always are the same:

 

Educate your children where they are at.

 

SWB recognized one her ds was lacking in a narration / dictation skill. I believe he was in middle or high school. She whipped out Writing With Ease 4 (read 4th grade) and worked on the skills he needed to work on. She met him where he was at. She strengthened his foundation so that it was "easier to build the house". I think most of us on the boards have had to do this at one time or another. In short, do NOT be discouraged. Meet them where they are at and the rest will come along. There are WONDERFUL resources out there to help the mature student strengthen weaker foundations.

 

As far as being off cycle with this 4 year history issue. This drove me buggy. My suggestion? Start with the ancients - both of them. She has a few pages in TWTM listing examples for the logic cycle of how to proceed if you are starting late or off cycle. I suggest you put both on the Ancients this year, and proceed. Your oldest simply won't get a full 2 rounds of history. The world won't end. I promise. :D

 

My kids are all over the board on skills. I love doing our history as a family, learning, exploring. So maybe you ramp up the 7th grade work. Maybe you don't. Maybe you let this be his easier subject while you take the extra time to solidify other skills that may need work.

 

I wish you the best in whatever you decide to do and however you choose to proceed.

 

HTH.

[faiths13]

Hello. Welcome to the boards and homeschooling. :)

 

While I started my oldest "late" on the classical cycle (3rd v 1st) and I recognize your kids are older, SWB's suggestions always are the same:

 

Educate your children where they are at.

 

SWB recognized one her ds was lacking in a narration / dictation skill. I believe he was in middle or high school. She whipped out Writing With Ease 4 (read 4th grade) and worked on the skills he needed to work on. She met him where he was at. She strengthened his foundation so that it was "easier to build the house". I think most of us on the boards have had to do this at one time or another. In short, do NOT be discouraged. Meet them where they are at and the rest will come along. There are WONDERFUL resources out there to help the mature student strengthen weaker foundations.

 

As far as being off cycle with this 4 year history issue. This drove me buggy. My suggestion? Start with the ancients - both of them. She has a few pages in TWTM listing examples for the logic cycle of how to proceed if you are starting late or off cycle. I suggest you put both on the Ancients this year, and proceed. Your oldest simply won't get a full 2 rounds of history. The world won't end. I promise. :D

 

My kids are all over the board on skills. I love doing our history as a family, learning, exploring. So maybe you ramp up the 7th grade work. Maybe you don't. Maybe you let this be his easier subject while you take the extra time to solidify other skills that may need work.

 

I wish you the best in whatever you decide to do and however you choose to proceed.

 

HTH.

 

thanks : ) sometimes its hard to say where they are. they are kind of all over the place with what they know. i have a 7th grader that cant memorize multiplication and has a hard time with division, but is doing ok with pre algebra. and they are both struggling alot with grammar. it seems they just cant remember it. i wish i was able to start sooner and building foundations for them to learn.

as far as history though - we just did ancients last year. so i moved onto middle ages this year. i was reading she suggests starting at ancients though...

[sewpeaceful]

Okay, so you memory skills is a skill you have identified. Great! Here are some things to rev your juices on how to help them.

 

1. Do you have a Wii? If so, grab Big Brain Academy. It is a GREAT game at working on the 5 primary thinking skills: memory, analytical, visual spatial, etc. I actually ASSIGN Big Brain Academy. Don't laugh. I came up with a critical thinking program my kids love. PM and I'll explain it.
   
2. Get a Memory game. Play it with the kids. It's okay if Winnie the Pooh is on the actual cards. :)
   
3. Math facts specific: assign daily drill. We have liked the flexibility and ease of this site from Math U See.
   
4. Khan Academy is a hit with many families.
   
5. Step back and do Writing with Ease with BOTH kids. There are samples on Peace Hill Press you can look at, try and attempt to figure out with the kids. Writing with Ease will help you in a couple of areas: memory from the dictation exercises, narration skills (summarizing and recognizing the most important points in a passage), and reading comprehension. It covers many skills that apply across all curriculums. My oldest struggled with these skills and WWE has helped her a lot. We are finishing up level 3 right now and will start level 4 in a few weeks.
   

Grammar: I am a HUGE fan of Rod & Staff. Short, sweet, clear and cheap! If you have to back them up to 4th grade, do so. R&S only goes through 10th anyway so with a little double time in the beginning, even your oldest would finish all of it before graduation. Besides, there are only 120 lessons a year so you could knock out 1 1/3 grades in 1 school year by doing it 5 days a week. Seriously - I was a math person and my oldest tends toward ADD. R&S has been SUPER. And the student textbook is written so that your kids could read the lesson and do the work mostly on their own. Check Amazon for even cheaper used copies.

 

Breathe. One step at a time. Find ways to make it fun when you can (like Big Brain Academy or a game with mom). You'll get there. Take it one step at a time and you'll all be on firmer ground before you know it.

Edited January 6, 2012 by sewpeaceful

[redsquirrel]

You know, it doesn't totally matter where you start. If you did Ancient history last year and do Middle Ages this year then great! I think it is more important that you keep kids together. My 'first grader' is doing Middle Ages because his older brother is on his second time through and that is where we are. I am not going to have one kid in Ancient and another in the Middle Ages.

 

For the multiplication and division, if it is a matter of fluency then consider something like a game. We had very good luck with Timez Attack. My son understood what the functions achieved, but he was slooooow to memorize the facts. A game was a perfect way to achieve that. And you should have seen the look on his face when I told him to go and play a computer game during school time :lol:

 

I would worry less about content and focus more on getting their skills where they should be. Use your content to work on the skills of reading, thinking and writing. Grammar, composition, history, arithmetic, science logic are all ways to improve reading, thinking and writing skills. Have you listened to SWB audio lectures? I like "the joy of classical education" and the three about writing. You buy them from Peace Hill Press. I have them on my iPod.

 

And FWIW, I really don't think that kids or anyone learns much vocabulary by looking up words in the dictionary. I think my kids learn a lot of vocabulary from the context of what they read. As they read more, their vocabulary will become richer. Oh, and I cannot recommend audio books enough. That is a great way to experience books. If we are in the car, we are listening to an audio book. The kids have them on their ipods etc. I think it is a great way to build vocabulary.

[sewpeaceful]

You know, it doesn't totally matter where you start. If you did Ancient history last year and do Middle Ages this year then great! I think it is more important that you keep kids together. My 'first grader' is doing Middle Ages because his older brother is on his second time through and that is where we are. I am not going to have one kid in Ancient and another in the Middle Ages.

 

For the multiplication and division, if it is a matter of fluency then consider something like a game. We had very good luck with Timez Attack. My son understood what the functions achieved, but he was slooooow to memorize the facts. A game was a perfect way to achieve that. And you should have seen the look on his face when I told him to go and play a computer game during school time :lol:

 

I would worry less about content and focus more on getting their skills where they should be. Use your content to work on the skills of reading, thinking and writing. Grammar, composition, history, arithmetic, science logic are all ways to improve reading, thinking and writing skills. Have you listened to SWB audio lectures? I like "the joy of classical education" and the three about writing. You buy them from Peace Hill Press. I have them on my iPod.

 

And FWIW, I really don't think that kids or anyone learns much vocabulary by looking up words in the dictionary. I think my kids learn a lot of vocabulary from the context of what they read. As they read more, their vocabulary will become richer. Oh, and I cannot recommend audio books enough. That is a great way to experience books. If we are in the car, we are listening to an audio book. The kids have them on their ipods etc. I think it is a great way to build vocabulary.

 

I agree. Fun when possible. Meet them where they're at. Be a family. Read. Download some SWB audio lectures from PHP.

[faiths13]

thanks :) those are some great suggestions. I def want to keep them doing the same thing as much as possible, because I have been running myself ragged and burnt myself out pretty good. We actually did SOTW last year because someone gave it to us and we liked it alot. I didnt even know what TWTM was lol. I like the idea of the Wii game and I just downloaded Timez Attack to try. I am a little concerned about grammar though, because we have been working our butts off on it and seeming to remember none of it. very frustrating. we just got VIE at the end of Nov and Im ready to throw it because they dont seem to be learning. Also it moves from one thing to the next quickly - Im not sure if that is why they arent retaining it or not. I got the text and two workbooks to go with it though, sigh. I will look into R&S though. I actually printed off some pages from Grammarland to try something new and I cant say they could even tell me the difference between common and proper nouns. They had a good idea of it I guess.

[redsquirrel]

You might want to consider First Language Lessons 3 grammar for both of them. You could also check out 4 if you think 3 is too easy. It is scripted and dead easy to use. It tells you what to say to the student and is very, very clear. After a year of FLL3 they will know the difference between a common and proper noun. Again, I cannot stress how simple it is to use. You open the book and say what it tells you to say. The kids work in the book. Done.

[Penguin]

faiths13: Ah, well of course I didn't know that your children had already read the condensed version. Often my son and I sit together, each reading our own book. If he asks me what a word means, I don't tell him to go look it up. I tell him what the word means and we both go back to reading. If this is a workable method for you, it does keep the child in the flow of the story.

 

And I agree with sewpeaceful. Rod & Staff Grammar totally rocks :).

[sewpeaceful]

R&S will teach a new concept and MOST lessons have a few review questions from previous material. It is gentle, reinforces itself and I found to be very effective (I've learned a ton too! - I can actually tell you the difference between a direct object and a predicate noun now - I hadn't even HEARD those terms before last year... Lol). Then half way through and again at the end of the chapter, there are more reviews to continue to help reinforce. And don't hesitate to hollar to the back of the car on the way to the grocery store, "Hey, what is the definition of an adverb? Do I lay down or lie down?" M&M drills are great (you ask a question, if they get it right, toss them a M&M). Drill questions while shooting hoops.

 

Faithe, relax. It WILL be okay. The boys are going to do fine. Really. NOBODY cares about their education more than you do. I want to just sit down, drink a cup of decaf, and eat some cheesecake or something with you, give you a hug, just sit until you feel better. Of course, we can follow SWB's therapy plan: eat chocolate until we feel better, get up tomorrow and remember it is a new day and we can do this. I can't think of a poster on this board who hasn't admitted to anxiety with their kids' education. You have a HUGE, worldwide board coming along side you ready to cheer you on, many have already started. We've been there. We are there. Take tomorrow off if you can and write down your tweaked plan, ideas, etc. If you are a faithful person, pray for peace, wisdom, and guidance. If you are a Christian, I really like Homeschool Enrichment magazine. Every month or two I receive a lot of encouraging articles, fresh ideas, reminders of why I do this. If you aren't a Christian, then please pardon my suggestion and forgive me.

 

Regardless, I would definitely look at R&S.

Edited January 6, 2012 by sewpeaceful

[faiths13]

R&S will teach a new concept and MOST lessons have a few review questions from previous material. It is gentle, reinforces itself and I found to be very effective (I've learned a ton too! - I can actually tell you the difference between a direct object and a predicate noun now - I hadn't even HEARD those terms before last year... Lol). Then half way through and again at the end of the chapter, there are more reviews to continue to help reinforce. And don't hesitate to hollar to the back of the car on the way to the grocery store, "Hey, what is the definition of an adverb? Do I lay down or lie down?" M&M drills are great (you ask a question, if they get it right, toss them a M&M). Drill questions while shooting hoops.

 

Faithe, relax. It WILL be okay. The boys are going to do fine. Really. NOBODY cares about their education more than you do. I want to just sit down, drink a cup of decaf, and eat some cheesecake or something with you, give you a hug, just sit until you feel better. Of course, we can follow SWB's therapy plan: eat chocolate until we feel better, get up tomorrow and remember it is a new day and we can do this. I can't think of a poster on this board who hasn't admitted to anxiety with their kids' education. You have a HUGE, worldwide board coming along side you ready to cheer you on, many have already started. We've been there. We are there. Take tomorrow off if you can and write down your tweaked plan, ideas, etc. If you are a faithful person, pray for peace, wisdom, and guidance. If you are a Christian, I really like Homeschool Enrichment magazine. Every month or two I receive a lot of encouraging articles, fresh ideas, reminders of why I do this. If you aren't a Christian, then please pardon my suggestion and forgive me.

 

Regardless, I would definitely look at R&S.

 

Its funny because my name is actually Laura Beth, but I go by Beth. Thanks for the kind words :) I am definitly trying to relax. I have really let my brain go to mush I think (being a SAHM with the littles didnt give me much time to read and pursue my own interests) and now that I have started reading it has done something amazing for my brain, lol. I have also been reading The Charlotte Mason Companion, which is great too. Both books are inspiring.

 

I did look at the R&S and while it sounds great Im afraid my sons will not take it seriously because we aren't Christian. I love the idea of a gentle approach though. I will look into FLL and see how that is. Oh and my ods hated the Timez Attack. Unfortunatly what ps has done for him is given him a loathing of learning. It has taken all the joy of it from him. Some days its a real fight because of his perceptions of learning.

[kristinannie]

First of all, take a breath! They are still so young and you still have so many years ahead of you! I'm glad that you like TWTM. It is a wonderful book. Classical education is a wonderful form of education, but it is never too late to start. I believe that there is actually a chapter about starting late. I have found that the more the children are read to aloud, the more they will understand. My kids are 5 and 4 and I was reading them Stuart Little. As I was reading, I was sure they weren't understanding because the language was so complex, but they were. Every once in awhile, I would ask them what a word meant and my son would tell me. He was right about 75% of the time. They got the meanings from context. Reading aloud will really increase their comprehension and vocabulary.

 

Here are my two cents....

 

Take the time to read the whole book and to possibly read some other books on classical education. You don't need to change everything tomorrow. While most of us on this board classically homeschool, most of us also homeschool eclectically and don't do everything just as TWTM lays it out. It seems like grammar is a problem area. I highly suggest Junior Analytical Grammar. It might really work well for you to get them up to speed. Since your oldest is in 7th, you don't have time to go through the history sequence twice so you have a few options. You could do a couple years of American history and then do the 4 year cycle. You could repeat two of the cycles (and your 5th grader could go through twice). You could just take your time and explore each of the years more deeply taking 1.5 years per cycle. Whatever you want! You just need to make this work for your DC.

 

In the meantime, I would really step up the reading aloud. You can even do some books on tape. There are some really great ones out there. You might also consider getting a Sonlight Core to have more read aloud books that are tailored to the ages of your kids. If you are worried about comprehension, you could always go with a slightly lower Core than their ages. The whole point is that they are getting exposed to better language repeatedly. You could also start Latin if you don't do that already. I highly recommend First Form Latin from Memoria Press.

 

My biggest advice is to just relax and really look into your options. It is better to delay a huge change than to do something rash that you haven't completely thought through. You can do this! It definitely isn't too late!

[readinmom]

At the end of WTM, she offers advice to those "starting in the middle". I read this, determined where my ds was actually at, and went from there.

 

Realistically, there is no way he could ever catch up on the readings that he has missed. Just had to pick and choose what was helpful and relevant for him.