Do any of you use the MCT level 4 and up materials-all of them??

[Karie]

We are finishing Essay Voyage. While I really like the grammar and CE, I'm not so thrilled with the writing portion of Voyage-I actually liked the Town level of writing better.

 

So, I'm looking ahead to MCT level 4. From other posts, I'm gathering that the Vocab part of the program is pretty intense and I would need to go slower with that. I love their grammar, so I want to stick with that. I'm not interested in their upper level poetry, and I can't quite figure out if the writing portion for level 4 is that good.

 

If you use any of these levels, could you tell me how the writing is. Also, do some of you just use portions of the levels? For example, I'm thinking the grammar/vocab portions of MCT are what I'd like to focus on. Anyone else do this? It seems that the use of MCT goes down once the student hits the secondary levels-do you as parents just not like it as much?

[8filltheheart]

We are finishing Essay Voyage. While I really like the grammar and CE, I'm not so thrilled with the writing portion of Voyage-I actually liked the Town level of writing better.

 

So, I'm looking ahead to MCT level 4. From other posts, I'm gathering that the Vocab part of the program is pretty intense and I would need to go slower with that. I love their grammar, so I want to stick with that. I'm not interested in their upper level poetry, and I can't quite figure out if the writing portion for level 4 is that good.

 

If you use any of these levels, could you tell me how the writing is. Also, do some of you just use portions of the levels? For example, I'm thinking the grammar/vocab portions of MCT are what I'd like to focus on. Anyone else do this? It seems that the use of MCT goes down once the student hits the secondary levels-do you as parents just not like it as much?

 

I am not a fan of his writing program. Here is a long drawn out explanation in this thread. (the 2nd page that I linked is pretty much sums it up.)

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3157935&page=2

 

FWIW, since you own the Voyage level, if you look at the MLA examples in the back section of the book, you will see the same format in all of those as well.

 

HTH

[HSDCY]

We are using ML1 and WWW1 this year after completing MCT levels 1-3. I decided to only use the grammar and vocab portion this year because we enjoyed them the most in the past and also because ds wasn't fond of his poetry program.

 

While ds liked CE I and II very much, he's not as thrilled about WWW1. It's all stems, stems, and more stems to memorize. We are at list #13 now (there are 30 lists in book 1), and I've decided to go until #15 and do nothing but reviews for a few weeks to give him a break. I do want to say that the stems are useful. We've seen a lot of them in ds's reading especially in his life science study this year.

 

As for grammar, ds is tolerating it as well. For some reason I can't yet identify, both of us are not as excited as we were when using his lower level books. Maybe it's the amount of work involved in learning the material.....

[radiobrain]

We are using ML1 and WWW1 this year after completing MCT levels 1-3. I decided to only use the grammar and vocab portion this year because we enjoyed them the most in the past and also because ds wasn't fond of his poetry program.

 

While ds liked CE I and II very much, he's not as thrilled about WWW1. It's all stems, stems, and more stems to memorize. We are at list #13 now (there are 30 lists in book 1), and I've decided to go until #15 and do nothing but reviews for a few weeks to give him a break. I do want to say that the stems are useful. We've seen a lot of them in ds's reading especially in his life science study this year.

 

As for grammar, ds is tolerating it as well. For some reason I can't yet identify, both of us are not as excited as we were when using his lower level books. Maybe it's the amount of work involved in learning the material.....

 

I am going even slower through WWW than you are! I am not in any hurry though. Grammar is chugging along just fine.

 

I have everything but we are behind in poetics and writing, but that has nothing to do with the program. I don't mind AAW, but then again, my kids aren't quite ready to start it... and I have seen MCT explain the program twice in person, so I am pretty comfortable with it. I don't get my panties in a bunch over indenting and other things. Different teachers (an college professors) have differing opinions on paper formatting. I think I would die if I had to really pay attention to that stuff. My brain would melt and my soul would shrivel up. Life is too short. ;)

 

I think the main issue is that the upper level books are not whimsically fun like the lower level books. They are riddled with humor and whimsy, but they are presented as serious works. I think that the excitement that MCT generates in the early books mutates into a different thing. It might be working just fine for a lot of people but it is like having your favorite uncle move in with you to help you build an addition on the house. It was great when he first moved in, but some day you will take him for granted. And it seems like the addition will never be finished. He's just there, eating your cereal everyday. Some days, the kitchen is filled with drywall dust. :D

 

So... just because there isn't a lot of hubbub over upper level MCT, I don't think it means that everyone drops it. I know that I have to slow it down as it is rigorous and intense. I can only take so much intense in a day.

 

Does this make any sense?

Edited December 24, 2011 by radiobrain

[HSDCY]

I think the main issue is that the upper level books are not whimsically fun like the lower level books. They are riddled with humor and whimsy, but they are presented as serious works. I think that the excitement that MCT generates in the early books mutates into a different thing. It might be working just fine for a lot of people but it is like having your favorite uncle move in with you to help you build an addition on the house. It was great when he first moved in, but some day you will take him for granted. And it seems like the addition will never be finished. He's just there, eating your cereal everyday. Some days, the kitchen is filled with drywall dust. :D

 

 

:smilielol5: I like the way you put it! But to be serious, MCT's higher level books do require a lot more work. You are right about it.

[TheAutumnOak]

I came over to this board to ask this exact question :bigear:...We are using the lower levels now and I am very concerned about the difference I have heard about when you get to level 4...

[Julie in MN]

It seems that the use of MCT goes down once the student hits the secondary levels-do you as parents just not like it as much?

High school in general is not as fun or exciting as elementary, sigh. Sometimes I fret about that, and sometimes I fret the other way -- panicking that I need to set the bar higher, expect more, prepare my student for the real world...

 

I do think the higher levels are easier if you've done the lower levels. As someone pointed out to me early on, WWW has lots of review words for kids who have done earlier levels. And I still think MCT sets the bar high while drawing kids in by presenting things well.

 

But I think in high school, some things have really been mastered and so each high schooler may be focusing on different things. Therefore, it seems less likely that the "complete" MCT language arts would all be used, even in a class taught by MCT :) Using all of MCT high school language arts is a *lot* and like most public school teachers with 1,000 page teacher manuals, not everything is done all the time. That's the impression I get when MCT chimes in on specifics of lessons, too.

 

And also, I think some of the reason MCT goes down in high school has to do with more "complete" programs coming on the market, which connect writing & history or otherwise have related lessons. Plus it's just easier when a "program" makes the objective decision about how much work is a full "credit" in high school, and MCT doesn't do that.

 

For us, MCT is a good option and we slip it in here and sub it in there when I see a need or ds expresses a preference.

 

Julie

[8filltheheart]

I don't mind AAW, but then again, my kids aren't quite ready to start it... and I have seen MCT explain the program twice in person, so I am pretty comfortable with it. I don't get my panties in a bunch over indenting and other things. Different teachers (an college professors) have differing opinions on paper formatting. I think I would die if I had to really pay attention to that stuff. My brain would melt and my soul would shrivel up. Life is too short. ;)

 

 

Your comment makes me think that you don't really understand the issue, or if you do, perhaps others might view it as significant departure from what most professors want to see in student writing. It is not a formatting issue. When I originally posted about AAW last yr, I posted questions about the format b/c formatting was the only logical explanation I could fathom for how poorly constructed the paragraphs were in his essay examples. (I thought perhaps it was a formatting issue w/his publisher or some bizarre MLA rule I had never seen.)

 

However, he has confirmed that it is not a formatting issue. So that leaves AAW full of essays that are over-loaded with block quotes, essays that use quotes to write the essay vs. the writer writing the essay, and essays with poorly developed paragraphs. No panties bunched up here. :D Just simply stating writing conventions that MCT ignores in his books......major issues that will cause students difficulties later in their academic careers if they copy his style in their writing. (Follow the links I posted in the other thread that I linked in this thread or here are some other sources that state the exact same themes....

 

Here are pertinent pieces about essay writing instruction from various college websites:

 

http://www.mta.ca/music/academics/guides/styleguide/quotation.html

 

Use quotations only when you have to. There are two principal reasons to quote:

 

1- When your source expresses an idea that supports or challenges your own, or an idea that you wish to support or challenge.

 

2- Rarely--when your source expresses an idea with particular eloquence, such that its exact words are indispensable.

 

Remember, it is your essay. Use quotation to support your own words, not to replace them.

 

Ole Miss Uni: http://www.olemiss.edu/courses/liba102/lectures/quotes_plagiarism.pdf

 

The best quotes are

NOT something one could easily

paraphrase

 

• Don’t let quotes make your points

for you.

• Use quotes ONLY as evidence,

example, or illustration -- after

you’ve stated the proposition in

your own words

 

• Avoid unnecessarily long quotes

 

Use block quotes only when a shorter

quotation or a paraphrase will not do

 

Or from http://library.spokanefalls.edu/guides/quotingMLAstyle.stm

 

Use quotations like salt

 

Most of your paper will consist of summaries and paraphrases of what you have read. (This demonstrates you have actually read and understood your sources.) Limit your quotations to situations where the original author's words are particularly memorable or well-expressed, or when the author writes something complex or controversial that would be difficult to paraphrase.

 

On rare occasions, you may wish to include a lengthy quotation (more than four lines)

 

**The bolded "rare" was bolded by me. I don't recall example AAW essays w/o block quotes and his examples avg 3 pgs often w/3 block quotes.

 

MCT often introduces a block quote w/a single sentence followed by the block quote. The quote becomes the argument vs. the writer supporting his/her argument with brief quotes. If the fact that it is contrary to standard writing conventions does not bother you, wonderful for you. However, don't dismiss standard writing conventions as "panties in a bunch over indenting and other things." Other people might actually want to understand what the actual issues are.

 

ETA: FWIW, all 3 of my homeschool grads have made high As in freshman comp. ;)

Edited December 26, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[radiobrain]

.

Edited December 29, 2011 by radiobrain

[8filltheheart]

I admit that probably don't understand the issue because, honestly, this sort of discussion gives me hives. :D

 

I went to a school that taught us essay writing since we were able to start writing. We never had anything other than an essay test until my Junior year U.S. History class (my second multiple choice test was my ACT). By the time I completed pre-K- 12 at that school ...I had probably written over 250 essays. I do not recall ever hearing of any type of essay format. In college, I also didn't come across anything about MLA or any other type of paper. I wrote them, I got As. I think that all of this is overblown.

 

So yes, I don't get it.

 

I also don't understand why you can't say to a kid.... this is how to write an essay....there are a few different standards, know what they are (in general), how they are different (and similarities), and just write and make your point.

 

I think we might need to agree to disagree on this issue.

 

I think it is awesome that your kids are doing so well, I would expect it. I just don't believe in one way to paint a box.

 

AAW has nothing to do with essay writing like essay test questions. :confused: AAW focuses strictly on MLA formatted research paper type writing. So if you are thinking about simple essay answer writing, we are discussing 2 completely different styles of writing.

 

MLA/APA/Chicago style (each has their own citation rules) essays are the base writing form required in most college level class requiring papers.

 

Yes, I agree to disagree. :D

[Julie in MN]

Your comment makes me think that you don't really understand the issue, or if you do, perhaps others might view it as significant departure from what most professors want to see in student writing.

 

I don't think it's a matter of not understanding the issue. I think it's a matter of different ways of teaching. And since you've strongly stated that you don't like the MCT materials several times (emphasizing the quote issue), others of us sometimes chime in to say we do like his materials, and try to explain why that quote issue doesn't bog us down. I'm not even using much of MCT right now, but I still admire and value his materials and his contribution to my teaching options.

 

Yes, there's a major section of AAW-1 that goes over quotes and gives examples of essays that are quote-heavy. There are also quotes (including extended quotes) in most of the other MCT examples of essays. MCT wants kids to know how to quote, which in some essays can be the equivalent of providing "evidence" or "proof" of their points. My youngest is one who needs this pounded into his head, because otherwise he just expounds on his own oh-so-amazing opinions. My middle dd was the opposite, but she also could have used MCT lessons, since her perfect essays were just, well, plain, and a few nice long quotes would have spiced them up and made her points more clear, probably helping her score better on standardized writing tests. (Note that I did NOT see her get perfect scores just based on perfect form.) And what if I had used MCT with my oldest and he didn't need the quotes, or say he used too many quotes? I'd just move past them to some other good stuff in the MCT lessons.

 

MCT materials were created for classroom teachers of gifted children. Teacher materials tend to have more options and more emphasis on areas where they just know kids are gonna get stuck. I'd guess that the proper use of quotations is one of those areas.

 

And MCT materials don't seem designed for the kid who just wants the perfect workbook or list of rules. It's more like my old honors statistics professor, who came in and said something to the effect that, "I assume you all know all the formulas, or at least know how to look them up. Here's a pile of data. Form a hypothesis and test it out." MCT seems to do that in a way that would have drawn us honors students in.

 

And really, although you could end up with a professor who is very particular about the details of grammar and format, I think you are even more likely these days to get an admission essay reviewer or professor who is looking for the student who can leave the format writing behind.

 

I see MCT as all about two things. (1) He raises basic expectations until they are just simple basics. He doesn't spend a lot of time in his writing program developing solid vocab, proper grammar, well-presented ideas, because those are all expected already, and built upon in his other components. MLA content is sort-of the last step in that process, and is required for even a grade of B in MCT. (2) He is teaching essays in a way that moves on to explore ideas, to get kids thinking more deeply and broadly. He seems to look at more content options, more poetic techniques for getting across ideas, including quoting a lot from great literature (!) -- just flexing those writing muscles in more ways other than the basic format (which again is already assumed to be understood).

 

His style isn't for everyone, and the materials weren't even designed for homeschoolers, but I disagree when it's implied that he's "wrong" or "poorly written." I think he's very current in his teaching and you can find many books on admission essays and such which today are trying to pull kids out of the format writing/workbook mindset and into the real conversation of ideas. Often those admission essay guide books do it in much too casual a way for my taste, but MCT materials to me are a nice balance of correct basics alongside more depth in thought and technique.

 

Julie

Edited December 27, 2011 by Julie in MN
MLA

[8filltheheart]

I don't think it's a matter of not understanding the issue.

My comment to Radiobrain about not understanding the issue stemmed from the fact that she has neither used AAW nor does she have a child old enough for the program. Since she hasn't actually taught MLA writing nor used the program, her comment about "panties in a bunch" was rather inflammatory.

 

I think it's a matter of different ways of teaching. And since you've strongly stated that you don't like the MCT materials several times (emphasizing the quote issue), others of us sometimes chime in to say we do like his materials, and try to explain why that quote issue doesn't bog us down.

 

This is actually a mischaracterization of my view toward MCT's materials. I actually think CE2 is a fabulous vocabulary program and one that definitely gets the words into their long-term memory. My dd has encountered many of the words from CE2 this yr and doesn't even hesitate when it comes to comprehending the meaning. I have never used the higher level vocab programs b/c they remind me of another stem vocab program that I own, Jensen Vocabulary, which is not an approach I want to use. His approach to poetry is not one that appeals to me. That is simply a personal taste issue.

 

When it comes to his writing books, I actually like a lot of what is in Essay Voyage. The voyager's essays are excellent at demonstrating the stylistic techniques that he wants students to incorporate into their writing. I think the classic essays are not necessarily good ones for the target audience, though that is simply personal preference. My dd lost complete interest in the classic essays and I would suspect that most 5th and 6th graders would prefer a more varied selection of examples. We only went through the first part of EV and did not use the MLA instruction in the back b/c I had already been using AAW w/my older 2 and had made the decision to not use his MLA essay instruction.

 

I'm not even using much of MCT right now, but I still admire and value his materials and his contribution to my teaching options.

 

I'm glad you like his materials. As I stated above, my comments about Radiobrain not understanding the issue stemmed from her never having used AAW. It sounds like you have used the books and the issue doesn't bother you. Swimmermom3 is another person that has used them and really likes what they offer.

 

Yes, there's a major section of AAW-1 that goes over quotes and gives examples of essays that are quote-heavy. There are also quotes (including extended quotes) in most of the other MCT examples of essays. MCT wants kids to know how to quote, which in some essays can be the equivalent of providing "evidence" or "proof" of their points. My youngest is one who needs this pounded into his head, because otherwise he just expounds on his own oh-so-amazing opinions. My middle dd was the opposite, but she also could have used MCT lessons, since her perfect essays were just, well, plain, and a few nice long quotes would have spiced them up and made her points more clear, probably helping her score better on standardized writing tests.

 

Yes, MCT does want students to know how to quote. We will have to agree to disagree that his approach is a good one. I am :confused: by the bolded. I'm not sure how standardized writing tests and incorporating long quotes are related. The standardized tests my kids have taken (ACT/SAT) are not MLA type essays, but simple personal persuasive essays.

 

(Note that I did NOT see her get perfect scores just based on perfect form.) And what if I had used MCT with my oldest and he didn't need the quotes, or say he used too many quotes? I'd just move past them to some other good stuff in the MCT lessons.

 

 

Again we will have to agree to disagree.

 

MCT materials were created for classroom teachers of gifted children. Teacher materials tend to have more options and more emphasis on areas where they just know kids are gonna get stuck. I'd guess that the proper use of quotations is one of those areas.

 

 

:iagree:

And MCT materials don't seem designed for the kid who just wants the perfect workbook or list of rules. It's more like my old honors statistics professor, who came in and said something to the effect that, "I assume you all know all the formulas, or at least know how to look them up. Here's a pile of data. Form a hypothesis and test it out." MCT seems to do that in a way that would have drawn us honors students in.

 

:iagree:

And really, although you could end up with a professor who is very particular about the details of grammar and format, I think you are even more likely these days to get an admission essay reviewer or professor who is looking for the student who can leave the format writing behind.

:confused: This comment leaves me as confused as the standardized test writing comment. We have never encountered an admission essay that was an MLA/quote/proof driven essay. THe admission essays we have encountered have been personal essays.

 

I am also completely lost by the comment about leaving format writing behind. MLA (or whatever specified format the university/professor in question wants) is very specific and not something that I would expect any professor would embrace as complimentary by a student who left it behind in his/her writing.

 

However, if you are discussing formulaic writing, :iagree: to a certain extent. Students need to have their own voice. However, their voice should not be at the expense of basic standards. (Their voice does not excuse changing verb tenses, shifts in POV, incomplete sentences/run on sentences.....nor does it excuse poor paragraph construction.)

 

I see MCT as all about two things. (1) He raises basic expectations until they are just simple basics. He doesn't spend a lot of time in his writing program developing solid vocab, proper grammar, well-presented ideas, because those are all expected already, and built upon in his other components.

 

:iagree: EV does not teach how to write an essay. It teaches stylistic elements. The elements it addresses in the first part of the book via the voyager's essays it addresses very well.

 

MLA content is sort-of the last step in that process, and is required for even a grade of B in MCT. (2) He is teaching essays in a way that moves on to explore ideas, to get kids thinking more deeply and broadly. He seems to look at more content options, more poetic techniques for getting across ideas, including quoting a lot from great literature (!) -- just flexing those writing muscles in more ways other than the basic format (which again is already assumed to be understood).

 

 

Here we will have to disagree again. The majority of academic essay writing is going to be MLA research/support driven writing. Writing nstruction on quality essays incorporating paraphrased/short direct/long block quotations addresses what he addresses in AAW. It is simply the "how" that differs. [ The basic format (which is assumed to be understood)... this is where my major issue is. His essays violate basic format (not excusable for the sake of voice.) ]

 

 

His style isn't for everyone, and the materials weren't even designed for homeschoolers, but I disagree when it's implied that he's "wrong" or "poorly written." I think he's very current in his teaching and you can find many books on admission essays and such which today are trying to pull kids out of the format writing/workbook mindset and into the real conversation of ideas. Often those admission essay guide books do it in much too casual a way for my taste, but MCT materials to me are a nice balance of correct basics alongside more depth in thought and technique.

 

Julie

 

:confused: This comment left me confused as well. I think that perhaps we are again discussing 2 completely different issues. I am not sure where "format writing/workbook mindset and into the real conversation of ideas" fits into the concerns I have addressed in his MLA essays. My posts have addressed a very specific issue, how he incorporates block quotes. (too frequently, at the expense of proper paragraph construction, and at the expense of the student developing their own argument and allowing the quotes to do the work for them.)

 

I know Lisa easily works around those issues. It sounds like you do as well.

Edited December 27, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Matryoshka]

:confused: This comment left me confused as well. I think that perhaps we are again discussing 2 completely different issues. I am not sure where "format writing/workbook mindset and into the real conversation of ideas" fits into the concerns I have addressed in his MLA essays. My posts have addressed a very specific issue, how he incorporates block quotes. (too frequently, at the expense of proper paragraph construction, and at the expense of the student developing their own argument and allowing the quotes to do the work for them.)

 

 

I have to say that when you first brought this up a while back, I thought you were making a mountain out of a molehill. ;)

 

However, as I've been working with my kids on essays this past year, I'm starting to see your point more clearly. :) I have not been using MCT exclusively, in fact, we never got through the end of Essay Voyage and AAW is hanging around but I think we've only referenced it once on an MLA point that is unrelated to this issue. Mostly we've been using the WriteGuide tutors, and Lively Art of Writing here at home, though I've also incorporated some other stuff and have been adding it to the pot.

 

One of the most useful things I came across came from my friend's dd's 9th grade writing class - they teach a paragraph format they call CQC - Context, Quote, Comment. I notice Duke's King Arthur study also uses this format for its short answer questions, although they call it TCQC, with the T being Topic sentence. This has been a very powerful format.

 

In my dd's latest literary essay, her tutor spent a lot of time getting her to explain why her quotes were relevant to her point - the second "C", commentary. It became so stunningly clear why you can't just quote something and have it speak for itself. This made me think of you, Eight, and I hauled out our AAW and my kids could see the problem immediately. They pointed out that their tutor (or me!) would never let them get away with that in a paper.

 

I still have AAW hanging around, and I think I will still use it as a reference. It does have some good points. But the issue you bring up is not trivial. It's basic to the argument that the student is trying to make, and how they think about it, and how they back up their opinion. One cannot leave the reader to decide why/how the quote the student chose reinforces their thesis - the student must explain that to the reader themselves.

[choirfarm]

 

 

Yes, MCT does want students to know how to quote. We will have to agree to disagree that his approach is a good one. I am :confused: by the bolded. I'm not sure how standardized writing tests and incorporating long quotes are related. The standardized tests my kids have taken (ACT/SAT) are not MLA type essays, but simple personal persuasive essays.

 

 

 

Again we will have to agree to disagree.

 

 

 

:iagree:

:iagree:

 

:confused: This comment leaves me as confused as the standardized test writing comment. We have never encountered an admission essay that was an MLA/quote/proof driven essay. THe admission essays we have encountered have been personal essays.

 

 

First of all, I don't know anything about this curriculum and have no comments about the curriculum itself. I just wanted to comment on the above quote. The SAT esay includes a quotation and you should make use of that in the essay itself. For both the ACT and SAT, you might have some favorite quotations that you enjoy that would be good to include in your paper. As far as admission essays, I've seen several on ours that have you respond to a quotation. And once again, quoting famous authors or others to prove your point in a personal essay can be a great thing to do. I encourage it!

[Matryoshka]

As far as admission essays, I've seen several on ours that have you respond to a quotation.

 

That's actually her point. The MCT essays include quotes but never respond to them. The quote is left to stand alone, and on to the next paragraph.

[8filltheheart]

I have to say that when you first brought this up a while back, I thought you were making a mountain out of a molehill. ;)

 

However, as I've been working with my kids on essays this past year, I'm starting to see your point more clearly. :) I have not been using MCT exclusively, in fact, we never got through the end of Essay Voyage and AAW is hanging around but I think we've only referenced it once on an MLA point that is unrelated to this issue. Mostly we've been using the WriteGuide tutors, and Lively Art of Writing here at home, though I've also incorporated some other stuff and have been adding it to the pot.

 

One of the most useful things I came across came from my friend's dd's 9th grade writing class - they teach a paragraph format they call CQC - Context, Quote, Comment. I notice Duke's King Arthur study also uses this format for its short answer questions, although they call it TCQC, with the T being Topic sentence. This has been a very powerful format.

 

In my dd's latest literary essay, her tutor spent a lot of time getting her to explain why her quotes were relevant to her point - the second "C", commentary. It became so stunningly clear why you can't just quote something and have it speak for itself. This made me think of you, Eight, and I hauled out our AAW and my kids could see the problem immediately. They pointed out that their tutor (or me!) would never let them get away with that in a paper.

 

I still have AAW hanging around, and I think I will still use it as a reference. It does have some good points. But the issue you bring up is not trivial. It's basic to the argument that the student is trying to make, and how they think about it, and how they back up their opinion. One cannot leave the reader to decide why/how the quote the student chose reinforces their thesis - the student must explain that to the reader themselves.

 

Your experience is the only reason why I ever even engage in these discussions. Unless you know what constitutes proper development, it can be hard to see the problem. That makes it even more problematic for homeschoolers since many rely on the curriculum to teach concepts correctly.

[8filltheheart]

First of all, I don't know anything about this curriculum and have no comments about the curriculum itself. I just wanted to comment on the above quote. The SAT esay includes a quotation and you should make use of that in the essay itself. For both the ACT and SAT, you might have some favorite quotations that you enjoy that would be good to include in your paper. As far as admission essays, I've seen several on ours that have you respond to a quotation. And once again, quoting famous authors or others to prove your point in a personal essay can be a great thing to do. I encourage it!

 

I have never encouraged my kids to copy the actual quote(s) into their essays. Your kids must write a lot faster than mine do b/c it takes them the entire 25 mins to develop their essay w/o spending several minutes copying a quote(s) (since many of the questions actually include more than 1) word for word. That would ultimately cause their score to go down b/c they wouldn't actually be able to use the extra time to develop their thesis. ETA: they often make a brief reference to the quote if it matches their thesis, but no, they don't incorporate an entire passage. (ETA2: I also should add that paraphrasing info is definitely encouraged (ds especially likes referencing mythology or LOTRs, but block quoting, again, no.)

 

As far as the admission essays, you would have to understand how MCT incorporates block quotes into his essays to understand the issue. You would not want to use quotes the way he does b/c he relies on the quotes to do the writing and not the student's writing. It is an approach that would weaken a personal essay, not enhance it. (Another ETA ;) My kids have also never submitted a formal MLA essay w/works cited, etc for a personal essay. So far we have never encountered an application where that would have been appropriate. I guess we'll have to keep our eyes open for that sort of question in the future. Would you share which schools your children have applied to where that was the case? So far none of my kids have applied to top-tier schools, so that may be why we haven't seen it. Perhaps when #4 starts applying since his goals are much different than his siblings. :tongue_smilie:)

Edited December 27, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[radiobrain]

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Edited December 29, 2011 by radiobrain

[Julie in MN]

This is actually a mischaracterization of my view toward MCT's materials.

 

Thanks for responding and clarifying to all those points. I think it will help others to figure out whether MCT writing program will work for them or not, as they look at two different viewpoints side-by-side.

 

Julie

[Create Your Ritual]

Has MCT ever responded as to why he sets up the quotes that way?

[8filltheheart]

Has MCT ever responded as to why he sets up the quotes that way?

 

This link has the following quotes which are the responses that I am aware of. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2432387&highlight=permission#post2432387 I am posting them below from the link.

 

FWIW, the original posts on the issue are confusing b/c I originally thought that perhaps it was a formatting issue with his publisher that automatically indented his paragraphs. Or that perhaps it was some obscure MLA rule that I had never encountered. The paragraphs made no sense the way they were written and I was trying to figure out why they were written the way they were.

 

Anyway, beyond the incorrect paragraph construction for incorporating the quotes, the issue of the number of block quotes and having quotes prove vs. support are also both issues that need to be addressed.

 

 

 

MCT said it was ok to post his response here-

 

I see that there is continued discussion at WTM of whether or not the paragraph after a long quotation should be indented. It is a good discussion, worth having. For me, it is the integrity of the paragraph that is important. I believe it is true that the sample papers in my writing texts almost always indent after a long quote, but there is also one, at the very beginning of Academic Writing, Volume One, that does not indent. I do not think we need to feel bound always to indent or not to indent, but we should give attention to the nature of a paragraph. Usually, I think, the text that follows a long quote is either a shift to a new idea or a discussion of the quotation. In either of those cases, that is a different purpose than the preceding paragraph, and I usually indent. If the quotation is clear enough, it can exist in the middle of a long paragraph and not be followed by an indentation--just the same as a short quotation. This is one formatting detail out of hundreds that come from MLA, and it requires a good decision by the writer. Finally, the sample papers that one sees in my writing texts are not presented as publishable, professional perfection; they are simulated student sample papers, similar to the thousands of papers I have received from middle school students and high school students. They represent various learning states. Some of them are quite accomplished, and others not. I hope that this helps to clarify my view of whether to indent after a long quotation. I think, in essence, that there is no difference in this decision between using a long quotation or a short quotation; in either case, you indent if you feel that you have changed purpose or focus, and not if you do not. Quotations do not change paragraphing rules. For a short quotation, you might continue the same paragraph after the quotation, or you might end the paragraph with the short quotation. It is the same with a long quotation. Finally, I have looked through the MLA handbook for guidance about this, and I have examined a number of MLA style websites to see if I could find a principle enunciated about it, but I do not see anything. They simply say that paragraphs should be indented five spaces from the left margin. So this may simply be a matter of style. I looked through a number of my texts, and I agree that almost all examples show an indentation after a long quotation. That is in keeping with my sense that there is usually a shift in purpose. There is some discussion over at WTM about how Microsoft Word formats things, if I understand it correctly, but that is not relevant to my texts in any way because my focus is on the MLA format and on classical principles of academic writing. I should finally add that I do not feel dogmatic about this at all; if a good writer wants not to indent and thus emphasize the continuity of the focus, that is the kind of decision that good writers make. In sum, indenting is a paragraph question, not a quotation question.

 

MCT posted an update on this matter. I wasn't sure if it had been talked about here and I just missed it. It's at the MCT Bulletin Board. I'll copy it here.

 

Indent after a long quotation? The answer from Purdue.

 

There has been lively interest in whether nor not to indent after a long

quotation in an MLA research paper. I saw that Purdue University was mentioned as an authority on the question, so I contacted Purdue and asked their view. I have received a response from the Purdue University English Department Online Writing Lab concerning my inquiry about whether or not to indent after a long quotation. Here is Purdue's full response:

 

While MLA is very specific about whether and how you indent long quotations

themselves (see section 3.7.2 of the 7th ed. handbook), it does not directly

address whether and how to indent paragraphs after long quotations. What we gather, however, is that quotations should always be integrated into the flow of the text in a grammatically and stylistically appropriate way. If the original thought after the long quotation continues the ideas of the present paragraph, then there is no need to indent and start a new paragraph after the quotation. If the original thought after the long quotation formulates a topic sentence (a new idea, a new direction), indeed, starts a new paragraph, then the first sentence after the long quotation would be indented to start that new paragraph. In short, sometimes.

 

The next time we reprint Advanced Academic Writing, I will study the sample

papers in the books carefully and make sure that they reflect this option. Bestto all, MCT