I can NOT believe I am looking into this- please talk to me about

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Saxon Math. :blush: I am the one who ALWAYS swore I would never look into Saxon math but I have seen so many good reviews about that in conjuntion with the DIVE dvd. How is Saxon for upper level math? How would this compare to Lials?

[Brenda in MA]

You will find many polarized opinions on Saxon Math for the upper levels. I had one son use it for many years, up though Advanced Math. He never really got a good foundation. He was able to get high grades on the tests by memorizing the methods. His underlying understanding was not there. I would never use Saxon Math again.

 

I also tried Saxon for one year with my other son who has more natural math talent. He also found the incremental approach frustrating, and there was too much practice for him. We went to the Dolicani/Brown series for him, and we've been very happy with that.

 

However, I have another friend who swears by Saxon Math. Her son is naturally talented in math, and he has no problem going from the piecemeal approach that Saxon uses to understanding the concepts. He has been able to use Saxon in a self-teaching mode and move through it pretty quickly.

 

So, I'd suggest trying to wade through the "lovers" and "haters" of Saxon and try to figure out if it would be a good fit your your particular child. I see from your sig line that your child is using Lial's BCM right now. What do you like or dislike about that program? Is it a good fit for your child? Maybe if you elaborate a little more on the strengths/weaknesses of your student, you could get some more specific suggestions.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[1Togo]

If your children can learn from a spiral math approach, which means the student learns a concept, works 4-5 concept practice problems and 20 or so mixed review problems for each lesson; i.e. the Saxon format, then it can be a wonderful choice. Two of our children, one very talented in math and the other not gifted in that way, excelled with Saxon because the approach worked for them. Because of this, I thought any student could use Saxon. Not so. Some students need a mastery approach; i.e. a set of coordinated concept lessons within a chapter and 20 or so concept practice problems. Having only 4-5 problems to practice a new concept doesn't cut it for the student who needs mastery. At the same time, though, some students who need mastery also need ongoing mixed review -- another aspect of math instruction to keep in mind.

 

Umm. All of that has probably muddied the water. Sorry.

Edited December 20, 2011 by 1Togo

[Elizabeth in WA]

I have gone over to the Saxon dark side. It works for my kids and they like it. Each lesson introduces a new concept and/or slightly extends a previous one. There are only a small number of practice problems just on the new concept, which is all my kids need initially, however, the bulk of the problem set is mixed review of all previous concepts. At the beginning of the books the problem sets are more repetitive because they only review material introduced in the book. It is important to do all the problems every lesson because they do get more difficult even in the review sets. My kids like it because the problem sets aren't repetitive (beyond the initial lessons) and the continuous review has dramatically improved retention. Oldest placed easily into calculus on the COMPASS placement test at our local community college when he was about halfway through Advanced Math. He is deciding whether to take it Spring quarter or wait until next year when he will be well into Saxon Calculus.

 

We do not use DIVE. If they have a problem, I walk them through it on a whiteboard. If they seem to be missing a concept when we do that, I direct them to an appropriate Khan academy video or video sequence and then have them solve a problem for me on the whiteboard before returning them to their lesson.

[coffeegal]

It works for my kids and they like it. Each lesson introduces a new concept and/or slightly extends a previous one. There are only a small number of practice problems just on the new concept, which is all my kids need initially, however, the bulk of the problem set is mixed review of all previous concepts. At the beginning of the books the problem sets are more repetitive because they only review material introduced in the book. It is important to do all the problems every lesson because they do get more difficult even in the review sets. My kids like it because the problem sets aren't repetitive (beyond the initial lessons) and the continuous review has dramatically improved retention.

 

We do not use DIVE.

 

:iagree: I get Saxon, so when the kids run into trouble I'm able to help them. Glancing over the lesson, I'm able to tell what the lesson is trying to teach and where the text is headed. I simply explain to the kids what's going on, and why the concept is important, and we work a few problems together.

 

 

All the kids are doing well with Saxon. My less mathy son does better in math computation that math concepts on standardized tests. My mathy son does better in math concepts than math computation on standardized tests. :lol:

[regentrude]

You heard from a few Saxon lovers - for balance I'll throw in my experience. For my children, Saxon got the job done, but we all hated it: the incremental method, the jumping around between topics, the repetetive practice problems, the lack of creativity, and the absence of joy and excitement.

 

We prefer a mastery based program where one topic is taught thoroughly until mastery of all aspects is achieved, and then the program moves on to the next concept. We found the practice problems in Saxon very repetetive; my children did not need that much drill- they preferred a book that had plenty of practice problems, but where all problems were different enough so that you had to really think about it and could not go on autopilot.

 

Ultimately, it is a matter of your preference and your children's learning styles. Saxon is a good solid program and gets the job done. It felt, however, joyless and did not inspire creativity in problem solving - something I, as a math lover, find essential in a math program.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I see from your sig line that your child is using Lial's BCM right now. What do you like or dislike about that program? Is it a good fit for your child? Maybe if you elaborate a little more on the strengths/weaknesses of your student, you could get some more specific suggestions.

 

HTH,

Brenda

 

She is doing VERY well with BCM! I had planned on using Lials for Introductory Algebra and Intermediate Algebra (I am assuming that is the algebra 2?) but I have not heard anything good about the geometry nor anything beyond. I want to try to find something that

 

1) has all good upper level math so we are not constantly switching

 

2) that has an instructional DVD (I need to re-learn upper level with her so I want to watch them with her so if she has questions I will be able to answer them and help her)

 

At the same time, though, some students who need mastery also need ongoing mixed review --

 

This is what my oldest needs right here. She is not a strong math student and it certainly does not come easy for her. My other 3 are doing fantastic with Horizons but they are a long ways away from upper level math ;)

 

We switched my oldest over to BCM this year to get some confidence built up and fill in any gaps she had (we have found a few already) and its doing just that! Her confidence is way up there and gaps are getting filled. Now I just want to make the best move from here with her.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Maybe a bit of background will help. From what I am reading I don't know that Saxon is what she needs:

 

I made alot of mistakes when we first started homeschooling:

 

 

She had gaps because she was in PS through 4th grade. I assumed I could get a 5th grade math book because she was on the honor roll in 1st-4th grade and made all A's in math. Come to find out they were barely working on 3rd grade math concepts the end of 4th grade. So we did a bunch of switching around trying to get the correct level. So last year she was caught up (not at all ahead) and I didn't realized how hard Chalkdust was and did Chalkdust Pre-Algebra. Well halfway though I realized she just was not understanding (it was a bad year for our family so I was not fully aware like I should have been that the problems she kept getting wrong were built on concepts before- she got most right so I let it go- never again) That is when we decided to go with BCM to get gaps filled in and raise her confidence.

[Deniseibase]

I used Saxon to get myself 'up to speed' (after failing Algebra the first time through in high school and getting a C- on it the second time and taking Math for English Majors in college :D ) when I realized that my DD was going to be EXTREMELY mathy. I LOVED it for ME - I do much better to review something for 5 minutes a day than to try to learn it all in one day and retain it. I also personally found that just the very act of DOING the problems gave me a greater understanding of the concepts than the lessons did. The lessons are indeed brief, and you DO really need to work to understand the concepts based on such slight foundation. I found using other math materials to supplement the theory side was necessary. Some people have to learn HOW to do something first and then learn the WHY later, and for me, for math, that works MUCH better than trying to suss out the HOW from having read about the WHY. YMMV :) I just never understood ANY amount of 'concept teaching' until after I already had the technique in my head - THEN the concepts made perfect sense. But I am a 'hands-on' person in a lot of ways, and my kids are not. So that's one thing I would think about if you are considering a switch to Saxon, if you have a 'hands-on' kid who wants to DO first and UNDERSTAND second, Saxon is a fine choice.

[MamaT]

I have used Saxon math for all 6 of mine. I obviously like it. :001_smile:

 

I am teaching Algebra 1/2, Algebra, and Algebra 2 at our co-op (which isn't really a co-op, more like weekly enrichment classes).

 

Not understanding the concepts has not been a problem for my kids. I will say that it was important that I also understand the concepts so that I can help them when they need it. I also require work to be graded daily and any missed problems re-worked,. If they are missing the same type of problem day after day, you know what to go back and work on.

[Matryoshka]

She is doing VERY well with BCM! I had planned on using Lials for Introductory Algebra and Intermediate Algebra (I am assuming that is the algebra 2?) but I have not heard anything good about the geometry nor anything beyond. I want to try to find something that

 

1) has all good upper level math so we are not constantly switching

 

2) that has an instructional DVD (I need to re-learn upper level with her so I want to watch them with her so if she has questions I will be able to answer them and help her)

 

Lial's goes all the way through Calculus (and maybe beyond?). There is a Lial's Geometry, it just isn't as easy to find. You could hunt it down or use something different for just that one year (Jann in TX uses Holt, I think. Jacob's is another popular choice).

 

All the Lial's books do have instructional videos available. The ISBN numbers for the corresponding videos are right on the back of each text. The Intermediate Algebra (Alg II) videos are free online somewhere.

 

I think if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[coffeegal]

Lial's goes all the way through Calculus (and maybe beyond?). There is a Lial's Geometry, it just isn't as easy to find. You could hunt it down or use something different for just that one year (Jann in TX uses Holt, I think. Jacob's is another popular choice).

 

All the Lial's books do have instructional videos available. The ISBN numbers for the corresponding videos are right on the back of each text. The Intermediate Algebra (Alg II) videos are free online somewhere.

 

I think if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

:iagree: If Lial's is working, don't fix it. Most of my worst mistakes were made trying to 'fix' something that wasn't broken. I think a friend is using Lial for Algebra, etc. but Jacob's for Geometry. It's worked well for her. :001_smile:

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Lial's goes all the way through Calculus (and maybe beyond?). There is a Lial's Geometry, it just isn't as easy to find. You could hunt it down or use something different for just that one year (Jann in TX uses Holt, I think. Jacob's is another popular choice).

 

All the Lial's books do have instructional videos available. The ISBN numbers for the corresponding videos are right on the back of each text. The Intermediate Algebra (Alg II) videos are free online somewhere.

 

I think if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

 

 

I didn't realize it went all the way up. Thank you! I think we will be sticking with Lials :D

[Quiver0f10]

My mathy kids have done very well with Saxon.