4th Grade Math Angst (long post, sorry!)

[Chrysalis Academy]

Hi Hive,

 

There have been a couple of great threads this week on 4th graders and math, which I've read avidly and found helpful. But, I could use some words of wisdom from you guys on my DD9's weird math behaviors . . .

 

She was in ps through the 1st quarter of 4th grade - which means we have been homeschooling for 2 weeks. She has always gotten 4s & 5s (As & Bs) on her report cards, and she scored Advanced on all the math sections of the CA STAR test at the end of 2nd & 3rd grades. So, she must have been learning all she should, right???!!!

 

4th grade was a bad fit for her for a number of reasons - math included. She's very bright, very verbal, id'd as gifted, but young for her grade (just turned 9) and socially & emotionally somewhat immature. By this I mean she has very little ability to inhibit/filter - she sings, hums, wiggles, squirms, gets distracted, etc. very easily. This disconnect between her intellectual abilities and her self control/behavior abilities made the classroom a challenge for her (and her teacher;)) because she grasped the material quickly, then got bored and distracted and distracting too. She also missed a couple of weeks of school for health reasons, got very far behind in math, and was very very stressed about the quantity of work she needed to do to cach up. For this and other reasons, I decided to start homeschooling her now (I had been planning to start next year).

 

So, what to do for math? I lurked here and learned about different curricula, I checked out TT and had her do the placement - she scored 97% on the Math 4 placement, and 87% on the Math 5 placement, which according to their rubric meant she should start with Math 6 - though I knew she wasn't ready for that, as she hadn't learned multiplying with 2 digits yet, nor done much with decimals.

 

This all seemed too good to be true - but I wanted more info, and had read good things about MM, so I had her do the MM placement. Ugh. She scored only 68% on the 3rd grade end-of-year test. And what I realized in looking at the results is that while she can perform all the basic operations on numbers, she has *no clue* about what is going on conceptually!! Throw her a word problem out of context, she's lost. She can't do elapsed time, measurements, money, or anything practical with numbers. This was discouraging, and made me wonder what the heck all these assessments are assessing, anyway??? (not the MM ones, the PS ones).

 

So, I figured I'd better do MM with her, to help her back up and get a grasp of what math is all about - conceptually. I realized that she is bright enough that she has basically been faking understanding it for all her years in PS. That ends now. We will understand math, or die trying!!!

 

For the first couple of weeks we did worksheets from the 3rd grade level of MM on the things she tested weak on. Then, yesterday, we started MM 4A. She can do it, but it is *such* a struggle!! I have to sit with her the whole time, even on problems she knows how to do - she gets discouraged and gives up, or gets sloppy and doesn't read the directions. It took us an hour today to do 1 1/2 pages!!!This is *way* more hand-holding than I had anticipated, and I am having such a hard time not getting frustrated and impatient with her (well, ok, I am f&i, but I'm trying not to show it ;)

 

Geez, if anyone is still with me after all that, what do you think? Persist with MM? Sit with her as long as it takes? Do 2 pages a day, or do however much she can before she gets frustrated and loses it? Work for an hour and settle for how much ever we get done? Slit my wrists???

 

I know some of it is just that MM is new, and it's forcing her to *think* for a change, not just spew back operations. I am willing to baby her through this at the beginning, but I don't want to become a crutch - at some point she is going to need to be able to do the work she already knows how to do independently of me sitting with her.

 

And how to deal with the lack of focus? The distractability, bouncing, singing, goofiness?

 

Any suggestions or words of wisdom would be soooo welcome!!

 

FWIW, other subjects are going very well, though I deal with the distractibility in those often, too.

 

Thank you already!!!!

[Momling]

I have had some of those issues with math with my daughters. Math Mammoth wasn't a big hit because of the length of each of the exercises and the repetitiveness of the problems. I like the explanations about how to think about computation, though... and I frequently will pull out pages for my girls to use when they need it.

 

Singapore is working better for us. We've been using it for about 6 months. What I like is that we do the textbook exercise together and then I have my girls do their workbook exercises on their own, so there is both the teaching and handholding that progresses towards independent work on their own. Plus the lessons have cheery looking kids on the page and aren't as overwhelming as MM.

[boscopup]

First, I would slow down and lower your expectations IN THE BEGINNING. She's only been out of school for 2 weeks? That's a huge change for her. I would expect her to need a lot of handholding as she goes through this transition, and it may take a while. To be honest, I'd expect to stick with her through the year, and try to work toward independence next year (and SWB has a lecture on independence... I haven't gotten it yet, but all of her lectures are good, so I'm sure that one is too! :D).

 

As far as MM goes... I would suggest breaking up math time. Go over the new material with her, then sit with her and work some problems with her. Lately with my son (who is 7, so he has the immaturity factor going), I've been alternating who writes. So after we learn a new concept, I'll scribe while he talks through the problem with me and tells me what to write. Then I'll have him write one on his own. Then I'll write again. Etc. He's doing all the actual mental work. ;) This helps keep his attention, especially since he's interacting with me. Sometimes I'll scribe for 3-5 problems, then have him write a few, then me write some, then have him write the rest. I vary it.

 

For word problems, I think you would need to be right there to walk her through them via questions (ie, "Read the problem out loud." "Ok, so what is it asking?" "What's our first step?" "What operation do we need to use?"). You're not solving the problem for her, but you're asking her questions that help lead her to discovering the answer. If she is having trouble with conceptual understanding, MM word problems may be difficult at first, BUT she's a smart girl. I'll bet once she gets that foundation under her, she'll do fine. Back up, give her the foundation, and then move forward. MM is pretty easy to accelerate once you've laid the foundation and she's ready to move forward faster.

 

Oh, and breaking up the math... Do part of it in the morning and part of it in the afternoon. Set a timer for 20 minutes each time. Especially with the wiggly nature, I'll bet CM-style short lessons and changing subjects often might be a good idea.

 

Try to be careful about dumping too much challenge on her at first. She's used to everything being easy. So start out easy, then gradually bump up the challenge level as she gets used to being challenged. My son used to burst into tears whenever he didn't understand something. He wasn't used to not understanding something in school! Actually, he still bursts into tears sometimes, but it's gotten MUCH better.

 

Most of all, if you're both getting frustrated, PUT IT AWAY. Do something else, then come back to it.

 

HTH!

[Crimson Wife]

I checked out TT and had her do the placement - she scored 97% on the Math 4 placement, and 87% on the Math 5 placement, which according to their rubric meant she should start with Math 6 - though I knew she wasn't ready for that, as she hadn't learned multiplying with 2 digits yet, nor done much with decimals.

 

This all seemed too good to be true

 

Yes, TT has the reputation of being one of the easier math programs and not the best choice for a student who aspires to a scientific or math-related career.

 

I wanted more info, and had read good things about MM, so I had her do the MM placement. Ugh. She scored only 68% on the 3rd grade end-of-year test. And what I realized in looking at the results is that while she can perform all the basic operations on numbers, she has *no clue* about what is going on conceptually!! Throw her a word problem out of context, she's lost. She can't do elapsed time, measurements, money, or anything practical with numbers. This was discouraging, and made me wonder what the heck all these assessments are assessing, anyway??? (not the MM ones, the PS ones).

 

Math Mammoth is one of the stronger math programs conceptually. I'm not at all surprised that a student switching from PS math would place a grade behind in MM.

 

yesterday, we started MM 4A. She can do it, but it is *such* a struggle!! I have to sit with her the whole time, even on problems she knows how to do - she gets discouraged and gives up, or gets sloppy and doesn't read the directions. It took us an hour today to do 1 1/2 pages!!!This is *way* more hand-holding than I had anticipated, and I am having such a hard time not getting frustrated and impatient with her (well, ok, I am f&i, but I'm trying not to show it ;)

 

Geez, if anyone is still with me after all that, what do you think? Persist with MM? Sit with her as long as it takes? Do 2 pages a day, or do however much she can before she gets frustrated and loses it? Work for an hour and settle for how much ever we get done? Slit my wrists???

 

I know some of it is just that MM is new, and it's forcing her to *think* for a change, not just spew back operations. I am willing to baby her through this at the beginning, but I don't want to become a crutch - at some point she is going to need to be able to do the work she already knows how to do independently of me sitting with her.

 

If your DD has been coasting through PS math without ever being challenged, she probably is going to resist at first having to actually think about math. There's a saying in HS circles that it takes a month of "deschooling" for every year of PS attended. So if your DD was in PS from K-3rd, that would work out to 4 months of "deschooling".

[letsplaymath]

... I would suggest breaking up math time. Go over the new material with her, then sit with her and work some problems with her. Lately with my son (who is 7, so he has the immaturity factor going), I've been alternating who writes. So after we learn a new concept, I'll scribe while he talks through the problem with me and tells me what to write. Then I'll have him write one on his own. Then I'll write again. Etc. He's doing all the actual mental work....

 

I would take it even farther than that. Trade off with her, doing every other problem yourself. Whenever we have a difficult task to do, it helps to have a buddy share the load -- and right now, math is a very difficult task for her. She has spent several years excelling in a world that called for a follow-the-recipe understanding, and now you've thrown her into a new world that demands conceptual understanding. HUGE transition to make!

 

For further reference: Buddy Math (how my daughter and I got through MM4)

Relational and Instrumental Understanding (explains the difference between the school's goals in teaching math, and yours)

[redsquirrel]

If you just took her out of school a couple weeks ago, I would give her an extended vacation to just find her feet.

 

And I am loving the 'buddy' in math. That is a great idea!

 

The first year of homeschooling is hard. Neither one of you knows what you are doing, lol. it takes time to figure it out and find your groove. Don't immediately think that there is something 'wrong' with either of you. Things take time and you are both learning.

 

And my son is in 6th grade, very good at math, and I am there at the table when he does his math. He likes to give me each answer as he gets it so he knows if he is correct. If he makes an error we correct it on the spot before he moves on.

 

So, I don't think you shouldn't be there with your 4th grader. After all, one of the benefits of a homeschool education is the one on one attention. You might as well take full advantage.

[mindygz]

I think the others have said some great things about what to expect especially with her being so new to homeschooling.

 

My dd9 had a lot of the same struggles with MM, so I did finally switch to TT. Dd9 just finished lesson 29 in TT4 and she does it every day without a complaint. A couple of times a week we do material from MM3 that we didn't get to last year, and I hope to keep continuing this approach as we move forward. I really needed her to have some sort of math that she could do on her own. The trickle down effect of using TT4 is that she is getting instruction that DOESN'T require me, and she is losing her animosity towards math. You will hear all sorts of mixed reviews of TT, but I think it comes down to finding a curriculum that works for the student, as well as the parent/teacher. Nobody learns much when there is crying and frustration, either, no matter how awesome and rigorous the curriculum.

[GingerPoppy]

My 9yo is also in MM4.

 

If I was in your situation, I think what I'd try first would be going back to MM3 for a while. She doesn't need to know that it's technically level 3; even at that level, there's plenty to challenge. Just print off sheets here and there throughout the level and let her get used to the style and the conceptual nature of it, while the problems are using simpler operations. There's no rush; let her get comfortable in understanding.

 

I agree also with breaking math into two 20-minute sessions. Use a whiteboard to work out problems. Draw pictures. The buddy math is a great idea. Use manipulatives to further the understanding, especially in place value, fractions, elapsed time, etc. Play math games for sure. I also do Fun Fridays, where math is not in the book, but rather on the computer. I either use a suggestion from the beginning of each MM chapter, or other online supplements I've found.

 

Give her time to get used to a new way of learning and help her have fun with it. Being a little bit silly can often go a very long way.

[Chrysalis Academy]

This is all such great advice - THANK YOU!!!!

 

I tossed and turned last night, and had a couple of Hive-led epiphanies: first, the one who most needs to de-school is ME! I know that bringing her home was the right thing to do, and it is wonderful, truly, but the responsibility for her education (always mine, I know, but now mine alone) is weighing. I worry that she will be "behind" - but then realize, wait a minute, behind what? I'm not planning on her going back to ps. The whole point of bringing her home was so that she could learn at her own pace, untrammelled by the institution. I guess, at the back of my mind, I just assumed that her pace would always be faster, in everything ;) This is my issue, not hers!

 

 

So, yes: I will slow down, back off, back up, and work with her till she gets used to MM's system. I will be open to trying other things, but not neurotic. I will :chillpill:! I will break up the session, I will do buddy math. We will read LOF together and giggle, and play some games, and I will back off. I will :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:. I will repeat this to myself every day!!!!

 

Thanks again, all. You are lifesavers.

 

-Rose

[2_girls_mommy]

I agree with the others about the "buddy" approach. I have a girl who sounds a lot like yours,not the math part, but the gifted 9 yr old, young for 4th grade, unable to control the singing, humming, and gets distracted easily! I have always known a classroom situation would not be ideal for her full time.

 

I think it is not necessarily a math problem. I think you have done your research and made wise decisions on your math curric. I haven't used any of those, but you have been doing your work.

 

I think sitting with her is what it is going to take until she adjusts. I was thinking it seemed like a similar issue we had with history this year. We moved into SOTW4 which stops narrations and starts outlining. I have since heard others on here say that it is not for 4th graders to outline, but in case you have an older student doing SOTW4. But that was3 not made clear in the A.G. so we started the year w/outlining.

 

DD was not liking the change. She was freezing up on me and getting fussy about it. It took extra time from me to sit with her and do them to get past the anxiety of something new and different from what she has been doing the past 3 yrs of school.

 

I spent extra time with her on it on the weekend when we didn't have other school work to do and it was just a calm Sunday afternoon at home. It really helped her. We threw away the one she had done, and walked through it step by step.