Confused about teaching phonics/spelling rules...

[ThreeBlessings]

Quick background- My two big kids are 10 and 11, my little is 3. We've been homeschooling since my oldest was in 1st grade, for K and part of 1st she attended a virtual charter school at home. We started our classical education journey at the beginning of the school year prior to this one, so they were in 3rd and 5th at the time. My oldest did formal phonics with K12 curriculum. She had already been sounding out CVC words as she had shown interest and I taught her at age 4. She didn't like the phonics and lost interest in learning to read.

 

This was the major deciding factor (among other things) in pulling her out and homeschooling on my own. I taught no formal phonics after that and backed off completely, only reading aloud to her. It took a couple of years before she wanted to read on her own. When she was in 3rd she could read well and started to enjoy reading even though I had not taught her any more phonics.

 

My previous experience with formal phonics was negative so I decided not to teach my son, now 10, formal phonics. He taught himself to read. He went from not reading to reading everything practically overnight at about 6. Both children read very well and above grade level. They also spell well.

 

So enter my confusion. I recently decided to switch from Sequential Spelling to Spelling Power. The level of SS I was using was too easy for them and as I had SP already I decided to go with that. They took the placement tests and tested on the same level. Looking over the word groups and rules I do not understand how knowing the rules helps with spelling words? Example- Long a can be spelled ay, ai, ey, ei, eigh, ea, or followed by a consonant and silent e. How is this helpful? Wouldn't most children already have picked up the patterns/word families by reading? Don't they still have to basically memorize the words to know how to spell them? How would memorizing that sentence help them know which pattern to use in a word with the long a sound? Is there a better way to teach spelling rules that is free/cheap? I'll confess I do not know the spelling rules as I was never taught them.

 

Also I've been thinking quite a bit ahead of teaching the little to read. I'm not convinced formal phonics is necessary, but I do not want to short change her. I need some convincing as I truly don't understand the necessity. My older two, especially my son, pretty much taught themselves to read and I'm not even sure how? I do know they read very well and I have no complaints.

[Ellie]

Example- Long a can be spelled ay, ai, ey, ei, eigh, ea, or followed by a consonant and silent e. How is this helpful? Wouldn't most children already have picked up the patterns/word families by reading? Don't they still have to basically memorize the words to know how to spell them? How would memorizing that sentence help them know which pattern to use in a word with the long a sound? Is there a better way to teach spelling rules that is free/cheap? I'll confess I do not know the spelling rules as I was never taught them.

Part of your confusion is that you're muddling up phonics and spelling. :-)

 

Some spelling methods teach the long sound of a, instead of letter combinations (referred to by Spalding and its spin-offs as phonograms) and the sounds they make.

 

No, most children do not pick up spelling patterns/word families merely by reading. If this were so, your children would be spelling better, yes? Children who are very visual tend to remember how words are spelled because they've read them so much, but if they have to spell, for example, "flay," will they know which phonogram to use?

 

Some children will learn how to spell words by memorizing them (writing them three times, visualizing them, drawing boxes around them), but they won't necessarily be able to spell words they haven't already done that with.

 

There are many reasons that I prefer Spalding:

 

It doesn't teach a sound and all the phonograms that make that sound (your example of /A/--the long sound of a). It teaches all the sounds of each phonogram and when it is mostly likely to be used (/A/ is the third sound of ea, that is, it is the least common), teaches the children to analyze words to see how they are spelled, teaches the children to apply any principles or rules (e.g., English words don't end with i, so we would use -ay at the end of a word and not -ai), teaches any rules (rules explain things such as why a, e, i, o, and u usually say their long sounds at the end of a short word or syllable), and so much more.

[Pookamama]

Well, I'm just gonna add a little bit-I am new at this. But when I am teaching my son to read, I am noticing patterns come up in words. Sometimes the 'ay' sound comes in different forms, as you said above. So if he memorizes the word as he sees it, he will be able to know what it is. However, if I ask him to spell hate, sleigh, and play, how is he going to know what spelling form of 'ay' to use? Some kids can remember. I always did because I was a visual learning and reading clicked very easily for me. But lots of kids can't and wind up having a terrible time spelling. i still know plenty of adults with difficulty spelling. However, if they learn the phonics rules for when to use each form, they will know. I am going to be getting the All About Spelling curriculum to supplement our HOP work because I know teaching the phonics rules will not only help spelling, but it will help his reading when he comes across words he hasn't encountered before. This will make it so he can read independently much easier. There is more to it than that but that's the general impression I have this far.

[ThreeBlessings]

Part of your confusion is that you're muddling up phonics and spelling. :-)

 

Some spelling methods teach the long sound of a, instead of letter combinations (referred to by Spalding and its spin-offs as phonograms) and the sounds they make.

 

No, most children do not pick up spelling patterns/word families merely by reading. If this were so, your children would be spelling better, yes? Children who are very visual tend to remember how words are spelled because they've read them so much, but if they have to spell, for example, "flay," will they know which phonogram to use?

 

Some children will learn how to spell words by memorizing them (writing them three times, visualizing them, drawing boxes around them), but they won't necessarily be able to spell words they haven't already done that with.

 

There are many reasons that I prefer Spalding:

 

It doesn't teach a sound and all the phonograms that make that sound (your example of /A/--the long sound of a). It teaches all the sounds of each phonogram and when it is mostly likely to be used (/A/ is the third sound of ea, that is, it is the least common), teaches the children to analyze words to see how they are spelled, teaches the children to apply any principles or rules (e.g., English words don't end with i, so we would use -ay at the end of a word and not -ai), teaches any rules (rules explain things such as why a, e, i, o, and u usually say their long sounds at the end of a short word or syllable), and so much more.

 

My children do spell very well. They rarely miss a word. When they do I have them correct it immediately, then they do not miss it again. So, the example I gave is from Spelling Power with the long a sound, would that be considered a spelling rule or a phonics rule? I thought they were basically the same thing, only spelling rules going further. See, I'm lost!

[boscopup]

There is no rule that says which way to spell /ay/ in every word (there are some general helps, like English words don't end in 'i', so "day" won't be spelled "dai"). There is a large amount of memorization involved. Phonics can help narrow down the spelling, as above. Plus you know "day" won't be spelled "dou", because "ou" doesn't make an /ay/ sound.

 

Phonics is more useful for reading, especially larger multi-syllable words. Your kids likely intuited the phonics, figuring out the patterns on their own. Not all kids do that, and you can't tell when they first start reading whether they'll be the type to do that. It's sometimes around the 4th grade words where it becomes apparent if a child needs phonics instruction.

[Ellie]

My children do spell very well. They rarely miss a word. When they do I have them correct it immediately, then they do not miss it again. So, the example I gave is from Spelling Power with the long a sound, would that be considered a spelling rule or a phonics rule? I thought they were basically the same thing, only spelling rules going further. See, I'm lost!

My bad. I should have read your post better!!:blushing:

 

Phonics tells us which letters and combinations of letters make which shounds. Spelling tells us which letters or combinations of letters to use in which circumstances.

 

Your example is why Spellng Power wouldn't be *my* first choice, or any other method that shows how many different ways there are to spell a specific sound, instead of showing how (and why, if there is a why) each phonogram is pronounced and used in words.

 

Your dc probably don't need Spelling Power. Maybe they only need to zoom through Writing Road to Reading and read the rules just to tie up loose ends--things like i before e except after c and when it says a as in neighbor and weigh. It might also help them understand the reasons for things like why "have" and "save" are spelled the same but the single "a" doesn't say the long sound in both words.

[placeofgrace]

Why do you need a spelling program? My ds sounds a lot like your older two. He learned to read really well at age 5. He is also a great speller. I just use his vocabulary words as spelling words. To me, only students who struggle with spelling need the structure of a spelling program. I tutor a child who is dyslexic. She really needs the phonics and spelling rules.

[ThreeBlessings]

I think I'm understanding a bit better.

 

Ellie- I'll check out Writing Road to Reading. Thanks for the rec :)

 

placeofgrace- I never really considered that they may not *need* a Spelling program. Regardless our state's homeschool laws state Spelling must be taught, so we'll be teaching it in some form or other. I'd like to keep giving them word lists so that I can know that the rare word they do misspell is getting corrected. Also there may be gaps I don't know about yet. It did just occur to me that ds has misspelled 2 separate words this year that originally end in y but had a suffix added so the y should have been changed to i. They were different suffixes and I did explain to him that the y needed changed to an i because a suffix was being added. He didn't misspell either word again, but you can see he made the same mistake twice. Maybe I need to go over all suffixes with him and have him practice that type of word for the next couple weeks so that I can see understands.

[RootAnn]

It did just occur to me that ds has misspelled 2 separate words this year that originally end in y but had a suffix added so the y should have been changed to i. They were different suffixes and I did explain to him that the y needed changed to an i because a suffix was being added. He didn't misspell either word again, but you can see he made the same mistake twice. Maybe I need to go over all suffixes with him and have him practice that type of word for the next couple weeks so that I can see understands.

 

What if you teach that rule just the way you stated it - and the word is "stay" and he's adding "ing?" What if the word is "boy" and he's adding "ish?" What if the word is "baby" and he is adding "ish?" What if the word is "fly" and he's adding "ing?"

 

Spalding (and Spalding-like programs) teach what you are referring to something like this: "The single vowel Y changes to I when adding ANY ending, unless the ending starts with I." (Spell to Write & Read/Wanda Sanseri)

 

So, this is where phonics comes in. If they know their phonograms, they know "oy" and "ay" and "ey" are multi-letter phonograms, so the rule, above, would not apply to "boy" or "stay" or "monkey."

 

The "unless the ending (suffix) starts with I" part would cover "ish" and "ing" endings.

 

Phonics gives a really good foundation to then build on for spelling with good spelling rules. Another example would be what Sanseri (Spell to Write and Read) calls the 1-1-1 rule: "With a one-syllable word ending in one vowel then one consonant, double the last consonant before adding a vowel suffix."

 

So, it doesn't cover "soap" for example because "oa" is not one vowel. It does cover "quip" because "Q always needs a U. U is not a vowel here."

 

I teach my kids phonics because my kids don't just learn to read on their own and I want them to have the best foundation possible. I also use a program that is similar to The Writing Road to Reading for spelling because it makes so much sense and they need all the help with spelling that they can get. :tongue_smilie:

[ThreeBlessings]

What if you teach that rule just the way you stated it - and the word is "stay" and he's adding "ing?" What if the word is "boy" and he's adding "ish?" What if the word is "baby" and he is adding "ish?" What if the word is "fly" and he's adding "ing?"

 

Spalding (and Spalding-like programs) teach what you are referring to something like this: "The single vowel Y changes to I when adding ANY ending, unless the ending starts with I." (Spell to Write & Read/Wanda Sanseri)

 

So, this is where phonics comes in. If they know their phonograms, they know "oy" and "ay" and "ey" are multi-letter phonograms, so the rule, above, would not apply to "boy" or "stay" or "monkey."

 

The "unless the ending (suffix) starts with I" part would cover "ish" and "ing" endings.

 

Phonics gives a really good foundation to then build on for spelling with good spelling rules. Another example would be what Sanseri (Spell to Write and Read) calls the 1-1-1 rule: "With a one-syllable word ending in one vowel then one consonant, double the last consonant before adding a vowel suffix."

 

So, it doesn't cover "soap" for example because "oa" is not one vowel. It does cover "quip" because "Q always needs a U. U is not a vowel here."

 

I teach my kids phonics because my kids don't just learn to read on their own and I want them to have the best foundation possible. I also use a program that is similar to The Writing Road to Reading for spelling because it makes so much sense and they need all the help with spelling that they can get. :tongue_smilie:

 

Thanks :). See, it made total sense to me the way I explained it to ds, but now that you have explained other instances to me it makes sense that someone could make mistakes because of what I said. Hmmmm. Lots of thinking to do here on my part. I reserved The Writing Road to Reading from my local library. I guess my kids have been so good at reading and spelling without tons of intentional intervention on my part that I've been thinking it is intuitive for them. I'd be happy to cover any gaps in their natural grasping with a good, easy, hopefully cheap or free program. I am number 2 on the reserve list for that book which means it may be awhile, are there any others I can look for that I might find free or cheap?

Edited November 4, 2011 by ThreeBlessings

[RootAnn]

If you want an overview of something in video format that will give you an idea of some of these type things (but not a substitute for Spalding's WRTR or something similiar), check out the Logic of English. She is trying to sell her program/book, but many of the ideas are what you are looking for (and it costs only your time to watch the 40 minute video).

[morosophe]

As a "naturally good" speller, let me tell you the rule that I really did find helpful: I before E, except after C, or when sounding as ay as in neighbor or weigh. Exception sentence: Neither financier seized either weird species of leisure. (Unless you're pronouncing "either" Scottishly, then it does follow the rules.)

 

Random word lists never made sense to me. I'm using All About Spelling with my son, though, and that does make sense. It's a Spalding-based program, like others listed above, and includes rules such as "When a word ends in a z sound, it is more likely to be an s than a z." This will take your child a long way, but in the end, English is not terribly phonetic.

 

Therefore, root-based programs (such as English from the Roots Up -- see another current thread for other programs) may be helpful, too, as they illustrate why English is not phonetic, and help see which rules are more likely to apply: "We get this from the French, so we use a "c" instead of an "s." (That's a random rule I made up; please don't teach that to your kids unless you get better backing than just me for it. Also, if you do go for English from the Roots Up, it only teaches Latin and Greek roots.)

 

As a complete side note: My husband was not aware until this week that when describing males by their hair color, you should refer to them as blonds or brunets, not blondes or brunettes, since those are descriptors of females. Redheads are fine in any gender, being the good old Anglo-Saxon descriptor. More shockingly, he was not aware that, when we were affianced, while I was his fiancée, he was my fiancé. Some words are not Anglicized enough when we borrow them from the French, if you ask him.

[Chelli]

If you have a naturally good speller, I would something more along the lines of Charlotte Mason dictation.

 

Spelling Wisdom is a good program to use for this.

 

http://simplycharlottemason.com/planning/scmguide/dictation/

 

This link also explains how CM did dictation to teach spelling. It sounds very similar to what you were doing with your dc by correcting them when they misspell.

 

Best of luck!

[Pookamama]

As a "naturally good" speller, let me tell you the rule that I really did find helpful: I before E, except after C, or when sounding as ay as in neighbor or weigh. Exception sentence: Neither financier seized either weird species of leisure. (Unless you're pronouncing "either" Scottishly, then it does follow the rules.)

 

Random word lists never made sense to me. I'm using All About Spelling with my son, though, and that does make sense. It's a Spalding-based program, like others listed above, and includes rules such as "When a word ends in a z sound, it is more likely to be an s than a z." This will take your child a long way, but in the end, English is not terribly phonetic.

 

Therefore, root-based programs (such as English from the Roots Up -- see another current thread for other programs) may be helpful, too, as they illustrate why English is not phonetic, and help see which rules are more likely to apply: "We get this from the French, so we use a "c" instead of an "s." (That's a random rule I made up; please don't teach that to your kids unless you get better backing than just me for it. Also, if you do go for English from the Roots Up, it only teaches Latin and Greek roots.)

 

As a complete side note: My husband was not aware until this week that when describing males by their hair color, you should refer to them as blonds or brunets, not blondes or brunettes, since those are descriptors of females. Redheads are fine in any gender, being the good old Anglo-Saxon descriptor. More shockingly, he was not aware that, when we were affianced, while I was his fiancée, he was my fiancé. Some words are not Anglicized enough when we borrow them from the French, if you ask him.

I didn't know any of the bolded either! That's why I'm glad I have you guys! My public school education just gets more holes in it the more I learn about educating my kids!